Seems very off to me (and I've replied asking for more clarification with other instances) but unless he says different, you'll want to alter your doc.
His doc clearly says that The Door Is Closed is bad worded and get a different treatment, and it's perfectly logical too, so the doc is still good.
This card effect seems counter to the ruling we just received.
Goblin Patrol: Forced: After an enemy is revealed from the encounter deck, discard it instead of adding it to the staging area.
The trigger is "After an enemy is revealed", it is not cancellation (at least I don't think so, since it technically since doesn't say "cancel"), and "after it is revealed" according to this ruling will place it in the staging area. So it will necessarily be in the staging area before the "instead of adding it to the staging area" clause can happen.
Obviously, this isn't how the card is supposed to work...and this card shows there is some sort of timing between "after something is revealed" and being "added to the staging area".
Edited by cmabr002
Good catch with Goblin Patrol -- but we'll just call it "special" so anything can be done with it.
Didn't know Immune was in place during the reveal, but good to know. Don't know where I read that, or if I just assumed it. Thanks.
This card effect seems counter to the ruling we just received.
Goblin Patrol: Forced: After an enemy is revealed from the encounter deck, discard it instead of adding it to the staging area.
The trigger is "After an enemy is revealed", it is not cancellation (at least I don't think so, since it technically since doesn't say "cancel"), and "after it is revealed" according to this ruling will place it in the staging area. So it will necessarily be in the staging area before the "instead of adding it to the staging area" clause can happen.
Obviously, this isn't how the card is supposed to work...and this card shows there is some sort of timing between "after something is revealed" and being "added to the staging area".
Oh ... Goblin Patrol ... you can help me out with the Goblin-Follower?
https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/100928-goblin-patrol-question/?p=1747468
Obviously, this isn't how the card is supposed to work...and this card shows there is some sort of timing between "after something is revealed" and being "added to the staging area".
Sometimes I wonder if, when Caleb gets questions pertaining to older cards, he just wants to shout, "This was Nate's card! Blame him!!"
We do a lot of hermeneutical, forensic analysis of card text in this subforum, but we mostly seem to submit to designer intent when it comes down to it. I feel reasonably confident that if Caleb was pressed on this particular card, there would be some hand-waving about the word "instead", perhaps a reference to the Golden Rule, and in the end there would be no reversal of the recent ruling.
Not sure about Goblin Follower, heh.
Regarding the Goblin Patrol / Goblin Follower question - isn't it just a question of When before After again? Follower engages the last player, so doesn't go to staging area. So it doesn't trigger the later instead of effect. Of course, if you then played " A Light in the Dark " on the Follower, things could get messier...
Edited by BoromoreMy clarification query was re: the Merry-Ithilien Tracker interaction that has been brought up in the past...
A follow-up on reveal timing, also germane to "after revealed" effects vs "enters staging area" effects... I earlier triggered Ithilien Tracker ("...lower the threat of the next enemy added to the staging area to 0"). An enemy was just revealed. If I now use Merry to reduce my threat ("After an enemy is revealed from the top of the encounter deck, exhaust Merry to reduce your threat by that enemy's threat"), will I get to lower my threat by the enemy's printed threat, or is that threat already lowered to 0?
Answer was consistent with the recent ruling:
If you use Ithilien Tracker to reduce the threat of the next enemy added to the staging area to 0, then that enemy's threat will be 0 when you trigger Merry's response. Those two players cards simply do not combo together.
Regarding the Goblin Patrol / Goblin Follower question - isn't it just a question of When before After again? Follower engages the last player, so doesn't go to staging area. So it doesn't trigger the later instead of effect. Of course, if you then played " A Light in the Dark " on the Follower, things could get messier...
Regarding Goblin Follower (absent Goblin Patrol) "when" comes first, so Goblin Follower would engage the last player. Then "After" he was revealed, he would go to the staging area anyway, and it would be just like his When Revealed effect never happened. That is, if we go by this Strider's Path ruling.
It seems to me Caleb intended to say something to this effect, instead of what was posted by JYoder, but I can't be sure:
"A fter an enemy or location is revealed, it is added to the staging area [unless a card effect caused it to be placed somewhere else first] " (such as the When Revealed effect on Goblin Follower. or the Ambush keyword).
Edited by cmabr002This card effect seems counter to the ruling we just received.
Goblin Patrol: Forced: After an enemy is revealed from the encounter deck, discard it instead of adding it to the staging area.
The trigger is "After an enemy is revealed", it is not cancellation (at least I don't think so, since it technically since doesn't say "cancel"), and "after it is revealed" according to this ruling will place it in the staging area. So it will necessarily be in the staging area before the "instead of adding it to the staging area" clause can happen.
Obviously, this isn't how the card is supposed to work...and this card shows there is some sort of timing between "after something is revealed" and being "added to the staging area".
In my opinion this card is obviously a cancel card, it just doesn't say cancel. That is one of the bad parts about this game, there are so many things that need to be brought in line with current rules. What this card should read (and I'm certain Caleb would just give this errata if this was brought to his attention) is "Forced: When an enemy is revealed from the encounter deck, cancel it."
I don't think this games needs a LOTR 2.0, I think what this game needs is to admit it's currently LOTR 0.9 and go through the entire current game to proof-read, re-write, and decide consistent and clear rules and release it as a 1.0 patch. This would be a big project but wouldn't need to tear down anything we already have - just review the wording for how certain effects happen, go back and correct them all. It could even boost sales as people may want to get the new wording for some of these cards. I would argue they should also take some of the worthless cards and possibly even re-design them to be less worthless.
I doubt they'd do this, but I really don't think we need LOTR 2.0 at this point, this game is still working and expanding. I just think the errata machine needs to keep grinding, and a better rules doc needs to be designed which gives a clear technical read that brings consistency to the game.
Edited by shosuko
Seems very off to me (and I've replied asking for more clarification with other instances) but unless he says different, you'll want to alter your doc.
As much as I love this game, I hate all the hoops the FAQ and corner cases jump thru to prevent certain card combos. It gets discouraging and can drive newbies away.
(I got the same official response as you to the question, of course, and I followed it up with a clarifying question of my own. I will report back here with the results.)
Hey Sappidus, since you have open communication with Caleb regarding this matter, can you ask how you are supposed to resolve Goblin Follower and Ambush? Considering this ruling, the process would seem to be the following:
Goblin Follower (Although, in this example, I don't think the current ruling matters):
1. Resolve Goblin Follower's When Revealed effect (engages last player)
2. After it is revealed, add Goblin Follower to the staging area as a part of the revelation process
Ambush keyword
1. Enemy with Ambush is in process of being revealed from the encounter deck
2. When an enemy enters play, it would make an engagement check.
3. Assume it engages a player
4. After it is revealed, add the enemy to the staging area as a part of the revelation process
Edited by cmabr002
Hi Jan,
The Forced effect on Goblin Patrol is what we call a ‘replacement’ effect because it uses the word ‘instead.’ In order for a replacement effect to trigger, the effect that it is replacing must first attempt to resolve. In this case, an enemy that is revealed from the encounter deck and is about to be added to the staging area is replaced by placing that enemy in the discard pile instead.
However, Goblin Follower’s ‘when revealed’ effect has it enter play engaged with the last player. That means it was not about to be added to the staging area, which means the replacement effect on stage 2B is not triggered. In short, the Goblin Follower will enter play engaged with the last player unless its ‘when revealed’ effect is canceled. If its ‘when revealed’ effect is canceled, then it would be added to the staging area and the forced effect on 2B would discard it instead.
Cheers,
Caleb
Nice
But if effects that take place "after revealed" occur "after it enters the staging area", then there is no effect to replace. By the time Goblin Patrol triggers, the enemy was already in the staging area (just talking about a regular goblin here, not the follower).
Question: With the recent ruling on Strider's Path and ship locations, the card Goblin Patrol seemingly does not work as intended. Goblin Patrol: Forced: After an enemy is revealed from the encounter deck, discard it instead of adding it to the staging area. The Strider's Path ruling seems to indicate the enemy is placed in the staging area before anything can be triggered. If that is the case, the enemy will already be in the staging area before you can trigger the Forced effect on Goblin Patrol. Since it has the clause "instead of adding it to the staging area" there is nothing to replace, because it was already added to the staging area and as a result, the enemy won't get discarded.
The difference between these two effects (Strider’s Path and Goblin Patrol) is subtle but significant. Goblin Patrol is a replacement effect whereas Strider’s Path is not. Because Goblin Patrol uses the language “discard it instead of adding it” that means the enemy never reaches the staging area because it is discarded instead. If Strider’s Path said: “After a location is revealed, immediately travel to it instead of adding it to the staging area” then it would work the same as Goblin Patrol. Sorry for the confusion. I hope that helps.
Cheers,
Caleb
I don't see how this is so confusing... but maybe it's because the last game I played seriously had a comprehensive rules write up which defined replacement modifiers, cancel effects, and how these effected timing. The LoTR rules is a mash up of odd "lead you through a turn" rules which are a bit too light, and then an amalgamation of FAQ / ERRATA which have just collected over the ages. I said it over a year ago when I first bought this game, and I still say it now - this game needs an official comprehensive rules write up. If MLP cards has it, then FFG better pony up
Edited by shosuko
Life would be so much easier if all the "After x happens, do something else instead" had been "When x would happen, do something else instead", but this unpleasantness has been with us since at least Frodo Baggins, so we just have to live with it.
Expanding on the thread rather than make new one...
If I play Mariner's Compass, can I select a location from the encounter deck with immune text? (Basically, is a card with immune text still considered immune in this case, when it's not in play or even considered revealed?)
I wouldn't consider "Immune to Player Card Effects" to be an active effect when a card is not in play, so I would say you can put such a location from the encounter deck into the staging area with Mariner's Compass.
I followed up a bit more regarding replacement effects for clarity.
Question: In the FAQ there is an entry "(1.37) Timing of effect resolution". Recently, cancellation effects were added to that to add some clarity to the timing structure which is really helpful as a player.
Where do replacement effects fall in that timing structure?
Replacement effects and cancellation effects are closely related because they both interrupt something that was about to happen and then change the outcome. In the case of cancellation effects, nothing happens. In the case of replacement effects, something else happens instead. So in that regard, replacement effects could be seen to interrupt the normal resolution of effects the same way that cancellation effects do.Cheers,Caleb