I believe I have this right, but if when an encounter card is revealed, it's not part of the staging area, correct?
First time playing "The Siege of Gondor" and the quest card says Ship locations in the staging area are immune to player card effects. I've revealed a Ship location, but I assume I can play Strider's Path on it to make it the active location because I don't believe it's part of the staging area yet.
I believe I have this right, but if when an encounter card is revealed, it's not part of the staging area, correct?
First time playing "The Siege of Gondor" and the quest card says Ship locations in the staging area are immune to player card effects. I've revealed a Ship location, but I assume I can play Strider's Path on it to make it the active location because I don't believe it's part of the staging area yet.
I don't think that's correct. Contrast Strider's Path with Thalin. Strider's Path says "Response: After a location is revealed ..." but Thalin says "... as it is revealed by the encounter deck." FAQ entry 1.37 says to resolve "passive abilities first, Forced effects second, Response actions third. When determining the order of effect resolution among abilities within those categories, players should first resolve abilities that use the word “when” and then resolve abilities with the word “after”." And the rulebook, on page 14, says that "encounter cards are revealed one at a time, with any “when revealed” effects being resolved before the next card is revealed. Enemy and location cards revealed in this manner are placed in the staging area, treachery cards are resolved and (unless otherwise indicated by the card text) placed in the discard pile."
Let's put all those things together. You must resolve "When" effects before you resolve "After" effects. Therefore, by the time you can resolve "After a location is revealed", you must have resolved the "When Revealed" effect first. And since all revealed cards are placed in the staging area before the next card is revealed, I think it's fair to say that "add to the staging area" is considered part of the "reveal" effect. (The FAQ clarifies that "reveal" always means "reveal and add to the staging area"). I don't think the two are separable, which means that by the time you can play any "After X is revealed" effects, card X is already in the staging area. Thalin gets to interrupt the card (and, for example, kill 1-HP enemies that surge before their Surge keyword can trigger) because he's an " as " effect. But Strider's Path is an "After" effect, so the whole reveal-and-add process has to happen first.
Therefore, by the time you can play Strider's Path on a Ship location, it's already in the staging area and under the effect of the quest card, making it immune to Strider's Path.
Edited by rmunnSection 1.37 deals with "resolving multiple effects with a shared condition," which is not really the case here. Instead, I would say there's a sequence of events intended to play out. The question is, what's that sequence? In that regard, I started scanning the FAQ more, and found this on page 16...
Strider's Path tells you everything you need to know about when to play it: after a location is revealed, which implies that the entire process of revealing is complete (and in this case, the Ship is immune to player card effects).
That appears in complete contrast to the FAQ I quoted above. Why would this be different?
That appears in complete contrast to the FAQ I quoted above. Why would this be different?
Again, because Responses occur after their triggering condition (in this case after a location is revealed), in contrast to When Revealed effects which occur immediately.
Edited by Kakita Shiro
Q: When an enemy makes an attack as part of its “when revealed” effect, is that enemy in the staging area?
A: No. Enemies are added to the staging after resolving their “when revealed” effects. An enemy that makes an attack as part of its “when revealed” effect, is not in the staging area or engaged with the defending player unless a card effect says it is.
Ah, good, I'd been looking for an answer to "Is the card in the staging area during When Revealed effects?" Thanks for finding that. So if Strider's Path said " When a location is revealed", then I'd be 100% in agreement with you. But it says " After ". And so the question is: is adding to the staging area considered part of the revealing process? Or is it more like there was a card effect that says "After a card is revealed, add it to the staging area"?
If it's the latter, then you have two effects that should trigger at once, so the player gets to pick the most advantageous order. But if it's the former, then the card has landed in the staging area before you can trigger "After a card is revealed" effects.
Since the core rulebook says that cards are revealed one at a time, with "When Revealed" effects resolving before the next card comes out, and "cards revealed in this manner are placed in the staging area", I believe that means that the "add to the staging area" is part of the reveal process, rather than something that happens as a separate step. But I'll grant that it's something that is not quite clear, hence your confusion.
Why the distinction here? Why use different text if these are the same trigger?
Maybe this line of thought will help: When do you trigger Merry's effect with Predatory Wolves? You must trigger it after the enemy was revealed, but before it was added to the staging area, because if you resolve the text that says "add it to the staging area", you've done something else and are unable to trigger Merry.
Maybe this line of thought will help: When do you trigger Merry's effect with Predatory Wolves? You must trigger it after the enemy was revealed, but before it was added to the staging area, because if you resolve the text that says "add it to the staging area", you've done something else and are unable to trigger Merry.
While I rather like this point, and am leaning towards the interpretation that allows Strider's Path to be played, I nevertheless want to point out one possible line of reasoning:
- FAQ 1.45: 'If a card effect uses the phase [sic] “Reveal and add to the staging area”, it means the same as simply using the word “reveal”...'
- Therefore, I am to read Predatory Wolves as '...search the encounter deck and discard pile for a Warg enemy, and reveal it. Shuffle the encounter deck.'
- Thus I can trigger Merry no matter when the actual adding of the enemy to the staging area occurs with respect to an "after revealed" trigger.
This is a bit tortured, but given such an interpretation, I am unsure if the last sentence of what you said actually clarifies the situation.
Kakita and rmunn -- I see what you mean now: That Strider's Path says "After revealed" rather than "When revealed" which is a good distinction, and you believe adding it to the staging area is part of the reveal.
However, I don't think adding to the staging area is part of "When revealed," but is the next step. Hence, an "After revealed" response like Strider's Path (which is before a location can even enter the staging area) seems legit to me. Seastan -- if I'm understanding you, that's what you're saying too? (Though regarding Merry, it does say revealed from the top of the encounter deck, which is not happening with Predatory Wolves.)
Here's a "for instance" -- say you reveal a location that has an effect that occurs when it gets added to the staging area (not sure there is one) and say the active location also has an effect that triggers when added to the staging area. In my mind, if I play Strider's Path, it doesn't make sense to trigger the new location's effect (saying it made it to the staging area), and then do the same with the active location. To me, Strider's Path prevents the new location from ever entering the staging area.
(Though regarding Merry, it does say revealed from the top of the encounter deck, which is not happening with Predatory Wolves.)
Whoops, I didn't see that, either! Excellent point.
One other thing: Merry and Anborn clearly have different triggers, as many effects will trigger Anborn but not Merry, e.g., A Light in the Dark. The question remains as to precisely when, in the context of revealing, an enemy is added to the staging area vis a vis an "after revealed" trigger.
I went ahead and submitted an official query about all this, so I will report back with the answer.
Edited by sappidus(Though regarding Merry, it does say revealed from the top of the encounter deck, which is not happening with Predatory Wolves.)
Good catch, but there are other responses that don't require the "top" card to be revealed (like Leadership Gimli ally), so the question still stands.
I would trigger effects in the following order. If anyone has a ruling that contradicts this, let me know.
"After it's been revealed"
Forced: Thaurdir , The Hand of Castamir , Goblin Archer , Croaking Crows , Goblin Tunnels , Gondorian Hamlet , Weathered Hilltop
Response: Spirit Merry , Leadership Gimli , Minas Tirith Lampwright , Strider’s Path
"As it enters the staging area / enters play"
Passive: Traps (e.g. Ranger Spikes ), Ambush (e.g. Orc Raiders) (Since this has the same priority as traps, you can choose to resolve the trap first.) , Underworld X (e.g. Storehouse ), Villagers X (e.g. Burning Farmhouse ), Guarded (e.g. Signs of Gollum ), Ithilien Tracker , Quiet the Spirits
"After it enters the staging are / enters play"
Forced: Vigilant Orc , Great Barrow , Glade of the Spawn , Deep-Mines
For those curious, the order comes from here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/18Z-F6r0f2aIlEF8QTuVgHuGQYKsObkxyGwwM4_W978Y/edit?usp=sharing
Edited by SeastanIs that an official doc or something you just typed up? Either way, makes sense to me, with steps 8 and 9 answering the question in a very practical manner.
(Though regarding Merry, it does say revealed from the top of the encounter deck, which is not happening with Predatory Wolves.)
Good catch, but there are other responses that don't require the "top" card to be revealed (like Leadership Gimli ally), so the question still stands.
I would trigger effects in the following order. If anyone has a ruling that contradicts this, let me know.
"After it's been revealed"
Forced: Thaurdir , The Hand of Castamir , Goblin Archer , Croaking Crows , Goblin Tunnels , Gondorian Hamlet , Weathered Hilltop
Response: Spirit Merry , Leadership Gimli , Minas Tirith Lampwright , Strider’s Path
"As it enters the staging area / enters play"
Passive: Traps (e.g. Ranger Spikes ), Ambush (e.g. Orc Raiders) (Since this has the same priority as traps, you can choose to resolve the trap first.) , Underworld X (e.g. Storehouse ), Villagers X (e.g. Burning Farmhouse ), Guarded (e.g. Signs of Gollum ), Ithilien Tracker , Quiet the Spirits
"After it enters the staging are / enters play"
Forced: Vigilant Orc , Great Barrow , Glade of the Spawn , Deep-Mines
For those curious, the order comes from here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/18Z-F6r0f2aIlEF8QTuVgHuGQYKsObkxyGwwM4_W978Y/edit?usp=sharing
Wow, that's a truly impressive document. Thanks for sharing.
Kind of sad that revealing/staging have become so complicated.
Is that an official doc or something you just typed up? Either way, makes sense to me, with steps 8 and 9 answering the question in a very practical manner.
It's not official. Just something made by myself and a couple other contributors. It aims to be consistent with every ruling we've had so far concerning revealing encounter cards.
Caleb's response to my email is Strider's Path doesn't work in this instant. He wrote...
After an enemy or location is revealed, it is added to the staging area. Since Strider’s Path triggers “After a location is revealed…” that means the location would be in the staging area when you play it. As a result, a Ship location would be immune to its effect, preventing you from targeting the Ship location with Strider’s Path.
Seems very off to me (and I've replied asking for more clarification with other instances) but unless he says different, you'll want to alter your doc.
As much as I love this game, I hate all the hoops the FAQ and corner cases jump thru to prevent certain card combos. It gets discouraging and can drive newbies away. His response seems to imply that "The Door is Closed" shouldn't work in this case either, which seems doubly wrong to me. I thought that card could work on cards that are "Immune to player card effects" because the encounter card hasn't entered the game yet. Or am I wrong about that?
Edited by JYoderSeems very off to me (and I've replied asking for more clarification with other instances) but unless he says different, you'll want to alter your doc.
As much as I love this game, I hate all the hoops the FAQ and corner cases jump thru to prevent certain card combos. It gets discouraging and can drive newbies away.
While I am of course sympathetic to frustrations with the rules complexity of this game, I find this particular case a curious one to get discouraged over. If your mental model of the game included adding encounter cards to the staging area as part of the revealing process, as rmunn alluded to above, then the ruling should make sense.
(I got the same official response as you to the question, of course, and I followed it up with a clarifying question of my own. I will report back here with the results.)
As far as The Door is Closed in this situation, Seastan's guide links to the rather more confusing discussion that surrounded his decision to place The Door is Closed where is is:
https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/193016-the-battle-is-joined/?p=1897121
Among other things, it seems to boil down to the misleading use of the phrase "after an encounter card is revealed" on The Door is Closed. Frustration with near-identical phrasing but different results? Now that I can get behind.
Edited by sappidus
Among other things, it seems to boil down to the misleading use of the phrase "after an encounter card is revealed" on The Door is Closed. Frustration with near-identical phrasing but different results? Now that I can get behind.
That's what I'm saying -- the phrasing between Strider's path and The Door is Closed is near-identical, hence my frustration. So why should they have a different result?
The Door is Closed: "After an encounter card is revealed from the encounter deck..."
Strider's Path: "After a location is revealed from the encounter deck..."
Barring a card type clarification for the latter, that is the same wording. The Door is Closed can be played on encounter cards that have the Immune label, right? That's because it occurs before the card has been put into play -- before it's been put into the staging area. If so, then Strider's Path should work the same -- before the card is placed into the staging area. Am I missing something?
Barring a card type clarification for the latter, that is the same wording. The Door is Closed can be played on encounter cards that have the Immune label, right? That's because it occurs before the card has been put into play -- before it's been put into the staging area. If so, then Strider's Path should work the same -- before the card is placed into the staging area. Am I missing something?
I believe the general consensus is that The Door is Closed is poorly worded, so you should probably not be extrapolating too much from it. (Also, as a cancellation effect, it gets special treatment.)
As far as it working on Immune cards, did anyone ever actually get a ruling on that one? Seastan's guide implies a belief that it doesn't work.
Edited by sappidusI believe the general consensus is that The Door is Closed is poorly worded, so you should probably not be extrapolating too much from it. (Also, as a cancellation effect, it gets special treatment.)
As far as it working on Immune cards, did anyone ever actually get a ruling on that one? Seastan's guide implies a belief that it doesn't work.
If The Door is Closed gets special treatment, that's news to me. And if it doesn't work on normally Immune cards (even though the card isn't yet in play... yet its supposed to get special treatment... which seems especially true since it is indeed a cancellation effect)... well... then I'll just have to wave the white flag and call it a day.
If The Door is Closed gets special treatment, that's news to me. And if it doesn't work on normally Immune cards (even though the card isn't yet in play... yet its supposed to get special treatment... which seems especially true since it is indeed a cancellation effect)... well... then I'll just have to wave the white flag and call it a day.
It's in the latest FAQ. Cancellation effects get priority before any other triggered effect.
It's in the latest FAQ. Cancellation effects get priority before any other triggered effect.
I understand that. Hence why I assume it should cancel even cards that say Immune, as they aren't in play yet.
I guess I view cards like Strider's Path as a type of cancellation effect... but I suppose I shouldn't as it doesn't actually use the word "cancel".
Revealed cards are in play and text is active. So, if immune, they are immune to cancellation effects.
For comparison: Thalin's damaged is cancelled by Toughness. As the card is being revealed, it has come into play and the Toughness keyword is active (this has been officially ruled on).
Strider's Path should not allow you to travel to a location that is immune to player card effects. When a card is revealed it immediately enters play without any break between them.
(1.37) Timing of effect resolution When resolving multiple effects with a shared condition, players should use this order of resolution: passive abilities first, Forced effects second, Response actions third. When determining the order of effect resolution among abilities within those categories, players should first resolve abilities that use the word “when” and then resolve abilities with the word “after”. A player card effect that cancels an encounter card effect interrupts this timing structure. A cancel effect must be triggered immediately after the encounter card effect that it cancels.
This is the reason The Door is Closed! works, and Strider's Path doesn't. It's not because of the wording for what it responds to, but because TDiC is a canceling type event.
Edited by shosuko
Why the distinction here? Why use different text if these are the same trigger?
Maybe this line of thought will help: When do you trigger Merry's effect with Predatory Wolves? You must trigger it after the enemy was revealed, but before it was added to the staging area, because if you resolve the text that says "add it to the staging area", you've done something else and are unable to trigger Merry.
Isn't the difference between these that Merry would ONLY trigger when a card is revealed where Anborn encompasses cards being revealed as well as cards entering the staging area from other sources?
Isn't that part of the trick to trapping trolls?
I'm pretty sure there is no timing distinction between these two effects when it comes to questing.