At this point, not liking tokens because they make it more board game like, is a pretty arbitrary line.

I mean that like this: if the game has has anything at all that changes what is directly printed on the card, a token or a dice would be perfect for that. You could say that there are few, and those few change the state of the game to such a little degree that tokens or dice aren't needed. But we all still accept that the game, as firmly portrayed by only the cards, is not the same.

Sparks mentioned he wanted more card games, but a large part of card games is changing board state and affecting peoples cards. It is just true that tokens and dice are useful for tracking the change. Then, sparks, your perfect game doesn't do this at all, because then tokens and dice aren't needed, or doesn't do it much, but that is strictly arbitrary and different for each person.

The only non-standard poker card game I can think of right now that has cards which values and board state does not change is Yomi. Which you should all play.

Nope, thought of Trieste too. But those are more board game like anyway because there is no deck customization.

On phone at work, forgive grammar and tell me if I was not clear. I realize I was trying to establish a fairly abstract concept.

Understandable. I just know that personally, I have a very, very poor memory, and tokens help me track the state of the game without having to recalculate it every time. For instance, when I'd go 2nd as Mantis, I'd put a token on my stronghold to represent my once-per-game, 2-gold bonus, and I'd remove the token when I spent those two gold. That way, both I and my opponent could easily determine if the bonus had been used.

But in this example many just used "dishonored" holding trick to mark they used it's one per game ability (like Mantis Stronghold or Border Keep in EE etc.) what was totally faster and diceless idea.

An to be honest, Mantis gold was 99,9% used in first or second turn when totally nothing happens and table is clear so there's totally no way to forget about it.

At this point, not liking tokens because they make it more board game like, is a pretty arbitrary line.

I mean that like this: if the game has has anything at all that changes what is directly printed on the card, a token or a dice would be perfect for that. You could say that there are few, and those few change the state of the game to such a little degree that tokens or dice aren't needed. But we all still accept that the game, as firmly portrayed by only the cards, is not the same.

Sparks mentioned he wanted more card games, but a large part of card games is changing board state and affecting peoples cards. It is just true that tokens and dice are useful for tracking the change. Then, sparks, your perfect game doesn't do this at all, because then tokens and dice aren't needed, or doesn't do it much, but that is strictly arbitrary and different for each person.

The only non-standard poker card game I can think of right now that has cards which values and board state does not change is Yomi. Which you should all play.

Nope, thought of Trieste too. But those are more board game like anyway because there is no deck customization.

On phone at work, forgive grammar and tell me if I was not clear. I realize I was trying to establish a fairly abstract concept.

If you go back and read my posts, you will clearly see all my reasons for not liking tokens. It's much more than 'it becomes more board game like'.

L5R did use tokens, but they were for specific decks. If you don't like playing a deck that needs to have tokens, you played a different deck. If tokens are required to even play in a tournament regardless of how you built your deck, then that is not the same thing at all.

tokens, hmm tokens...

Well I guess it depends on what you are looking for in a game. Tokens can definitely be over-done. Also, too many tokens can actually be a detriment to a game. With respect to L5R, specifically Emperor/Ivory, I think there were getting to be too many kinds of tokens. However, L5R has definitely always been closer to a board game than a card game. Provinces and the attacking and defending of them have ALWAYS made it that way.

I personally am of 2 minds when it comes to tokens and card games. I absolutely agree that nice well done tokens are absolutely fantastic to have available when you have mechanics that generate such things, and or make such things necessary. OTOH, I also totally agree that in a tournament situation needing to bring tokens to the table absolutely hinders the speed at which table changes between rounds occurs, and also increases the foot print of each game at a table. Especially if the number and/or different types required is large.

Side note: L5R has always been a particularly difficult game to do tournaments with. Game length, and space requirements and at various points dynasty screw, Fate screw, Event screw, and various other types of randomness make single game matches both a requirement and at the same time a tough pill to swallow at a competitive level. Anything that impedes the start of the next round (of which tokens can be an issue due to setup/cleanup), would obviously be a negative for competitive players. Especially for a game that at times has struggled to keep single games under 50 min let alone best of 3 matches.

However, dice and other methods of recording game state (of which there are many) are not absolutely better in all situations. This is especially true in the close quarters that are likely in a tournament situation. While it is true a pad of paper and a writing instrument are much easier to pick up when the game is done, they rely on accurately recording game state changes by both players. A pad and pen also increase the table footprint dramatically. Also, using them to record transient stat bonuses and penalties over the course of a turn or battle is cumbersome.

Dice and dials are nice, but are subject to inadvertent as well as intentional manipulation by outside forces (the errant table bump for instance); not to mention ALSO being subject to recording errors (as a pad and pen are). Where as tokens do eliminate some of that, but also create their own unique set of problems. Like cards that generate large numbers of tokens over the course of a game and not having an easy way to consolidate them (i.e. tokens in increments of 1,3,5,10,etc). Of course having incrementally bigger values of tokens could mean slightly higher production costs.

I think the argument can be made that there are very few card games where all game state information is (or even can be) stored on the cards themselves or by their board position and/or orientation. That isn't to say tokens are a requirement, but it is to say that tokens do solve problems. For instance, while not specifically using the word token any card whose effects have a limited duration, but last longer than the current turn is ripe for the use of tokens. That is certainly an effect that pops up in a lot of different card games, so having something handy to record that with is beneficial, if for no other reason to avoid arguments, especially in a competitive environment.

Also, If there are a lot of different counters to keep track of, something like https://www.amazon.com/Darice-Round-Caddy-Stacks-Count/dp/B006L2UUVA/ref=pd_bxgy_201_img_3?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=YCREN2BF1E17DFRZEV1B could make life a lot easier to keep them sorted and contained where table space is at a premium.

It should be noted that dice are not allowed as counters in sanctioned FFG LCG tournaments (as per their official rules), so I doubt that L5R will allow you to use them as well for Worlds, store championships, etc.

It should be noted that dice are not allowed as counters in sanctioned FFG LCG tournaments (as per their official rules), so I doubt that L5R will allow you to use them as well for pool Worlds, store championships, etc.

While I understand why, God that's dumb.

To answer your original question, I like tokens for a few reasons.

1. For me, they're super easy to manage. Keep a bag for each different kind. Draw them out as needed. For the main game currency (e.g. credits or gold), pull out a little more than you need, and continue to do so throughout the game. Just keep the extra in a neat little pile near the bag. And a little multi-section plastic box would be even easier... In Netrunner, I spend less total time managing tokens (setup+in-game+cleanup) than I did simply un-bowing all my gold in L5R. Especially if some tokens represent multiple tokens (e.g. the 5 credit token from Netrunner), they're not that difficult.

2. They can easily represent different sorts of information, which as pointed out by others, increases design freedom.

3. I have a pretty terrible memory, and they help me keep track of things.

4. They're real estate friendly. My total token real estate in Netrunner is a fraction of my gold real estate in L5R. I play mostly at my Friendly Local Gaming Store, so it's more polite to other players.

5. Tokens are good for representing durable-but-easily-changeable chunks of information. Like how much gold you have. Or advancement.

6. Coming from number 4 & 5, a token-based economy (like Netrunner) is, to me, more interesting than the card-based economies (like L5R and Magic). The flow of the economy is more interesting, since you can save, take a hit to your savings, etc. Having cards that represent currency generating power seems bland in comparison. Saving up for big purchases, only to make myself credit-strapped for a couple turns adds an interesting tension to the game. Plus, watching as my opponent saves up can be interesting too: "What are they saving for? How does that affect my strategy?? Ahhh!!!" vs. "Oh, my opponent bought another gold producing card, because that's what turned up in their province and that's what they could afford". How bland!

To answer your original question, I like tokens for a few reasons.

1. For me, they're super easy to manage. Keep a bag for each different kind. Draw them out as needed. For the main game currency (e.g. credits or gold), pull out a little more than you need, and continue to do so throughout the game. Just keep the extra in a neat little pile near the bag. And a little multi-section plastic box would be even easier... In Netrunner, I spend less total time managing tokens (setup+in-game+cleanup) than I did simply un-bowing all my gold in L5R. Especially if some tokens represent multiple tokens (e.g. the 5 credit token from Netrunner), they're not that difficult.

Ummmmm. Which is easier to manage here? Keeping a bag for each of your million tokens or none at all? I'm pretty sure not having any bags of tokens is much easier than having multiple bags of tokens to manage...

2. They can easily represent different sorts of information, which as pointed out by others, increases design freedom.

More design freedom is really the only perk I can see to having tokens. But I'm still not convinced that card games need that in order to be great card games.

3. I have a pretty terrible memory, and they help me keep track of things.

Sorry not sorry. I can't feel bad if you can't remember that you gave my guy -2f. Get better at remembering? It's a competitive game. Games take skill. Remembering things is a good skill to have.

4. They're real estate friendly. My total token real estate in Netrunner is a fraction of my gold real estate in L5R. I play mostly at my Friendly Local Gaming Store, so it's more polite to other players.

This is, without a question, the most ignorant thing I've ever seen! How can having a lot of tokens (especially broken up in to multiple bags like you like to do) take up less real estate than having none? Really????

5. Tokens are good for representing durable-but-easily-changeable chunks of information. Like how much gold you have. Or advancement.

There's a lot of netrunner in your post, but to me, tokens are not needed for telling you how much gold you have. I can math with or without tokens.

6. Coming from number 4 & 5, a token-based economy (like Netrunner) is, to me, more interesting than the card-based economies (like L5R and Magic). The flow of the economy is more interesting, since you can save, take a hit to your savings, etc. Having cards that represent currency generating power seems bland in comparison. Saving up for big purchases, only to make myself credit-strapped for a couple turns adds an interesting tension to the game. Plus, watching as my opponent saves up can be interesting too: "What are they saving for? How does that affect my strategy?? Ahhh!!!" vs. "Oh, my opponent bought another gold producing card, because that's what turned up in their province and that's what they could afford". How bland!

This would only be a thing if gold carried over through turns. Incidentally, most card games do not. And I don't think card games need that mechanic in the first place. And to your bland thing... "Oh, my opponent played and drew cards!!" How bland. It's what card games are, man.

3. I have a pretty terrible memory, and they help me keep track of things.

Sorry not sorry. I can't feel bad if you can't remember that you gave my guy -2f. Get better at remembering? It's a competitive game. Games take skill. Remembering things is a good skill to have.

In competition, there's something called sportmanship and you're displaying a bad sportmanship in your comment. In every competitive games, there's supports to track down things. For examples: In Football, there's markers to show how long until the first try. In Hockey, there's the display panel displaying the remaining time to the period and penalty, plus other stats that each time can see. Tokens are those markers but in card games.

After reading what I've hightlighted in your response, sorry but that's pure bad sportmanship. While it may be improved, it's not something that can be improved greatly. Some people do have weaker brain memory while some have great brain memory and this has nothing to do with skills. Sure it can be impoved, but no one can have the same memory level. There's people who have image memory that could remember 100 decimals of pi after 10 seconds of seeing them and some who will barely remember more than 4 decimals after 10 years. It's called personal limitation not skills.

When I see skills in a card game, I can agree with deck building, opponent preparations and applying strategy to the situation but remembering volatiles things like that, no. People already have to remember every rules, which is already a lot for some people, which is why rulebooks are allowed in competition, to refere to them in need.

So please, don't bring this bad sportmanship behavior as a reason... As I said earlier, I'm not a fan of tokens, I'm also not against them. I know that you despise them with passion, but how about you take a step back? Why shouldn't the game be more accessible to everyone? The more people playing it, the more competitions there are. The more competitions there are, the more fun it is to play. Tokens or not, the winner will not be Skilless-Joebloe, it will still be someone with great skills. That won't be changed, it will just be more fair...

Sparks Duh said:

"This is, without a question, the most ignorant thing I've ever seen!"

I find that hard to believe, since you presumably wrote, and thus read, and thus saw, the rest of your post, which was full of insults and other general ignorance on how to be a decent human being.

It should be noted that dice are not allowed as counters in sanctioned FFG LCG tournaments (as per their official rules), so I doubt that L5R will allow you to use them as well for Worlds, store championships, etc.

Definitely not Worlds, Nationals, or Regionals. SCs and GNKs are a different level of competition and have slightly different rules.

It should be noted that dice are not allowed as counters in sanctioned FFG LCG tournaments (as per their official rules), so I doubt that L5R will allow you to use them as well for Worlds, store championships, etc.

Definitely not Worlds, Nationals, or Regionals. SCs and GNKs are a different level of competition and have slightly different rules.

A good clarification. Thank you!

Based on your posting history here, I'm starting to think you may simply not be worth responding to. You clearly don't bother to read what people actually say and keep twisting what is said to make strawmen...

Ummmmm. Which is easier to manage here?

He never made a comparison, he simply said that it was easy for him to manage. So I'm calling you out once again on your strawman.

But I'm still not convinced that card games need that in order to be great card games.

They don't, but it can be argued that a card game with deeper rules which most often require tokens can be more enjoyable than a game with more shallow rules.

Get better at remembering? It's a competitive game. Games take skill. Remembering things is a good skill to have.

And we go from Strawmen to ad hominem attacks...

This is, without a question, the most ignorant thing I've ever seen!

And on that note... I'm just done with this poster.

While I understand why, God that's dumb.

Why? They provide the tokens with the cards, so it's not like you don't have them. So how is it dumb asking people to use stuff they already have?

It should be noted that dice are not allowed as counters in sanctioned FFG LCG tournaments (as per their official rules), so I doubt that L5R will allow you to use them as well for pool Worlds, store championships, etc.

While I understand why, God that's dumb.

You say that you understand why. Can I ask you to say what you think the reason is? Because what I think the reason is doesn't seem dumb to me.

FYI: I believe they made that ruling because: it's more difficult to accidentally do something wrong with tokens than with dice; they can't be knocked onto a different face; they provide tokens with the core game; it's easier for a player to know what type of tokens something is, because they're defined in the rules, unlike dice.

Can I just say? I love that this thread has five pages!

Also, @Sparks Duh… You asked token likers why they liked tokens, and I, a humble token liker, explained, in a point-by-point, easily accessible fashion. I don’t know if it’s your intention, but I’m finding your replies kinda hostile. Personally, I don’t want to be hostile back…. Unless you wanted to be hostile! It’s been forever since I’ve been in a senseless flame war, and my caps-lock finger is itchy… >:]

But, by way of reply...

1. For me, they're super easy to manage. ...

Ummmmm. Which is easier to manage here? Keeping a bag for each of your million tokens or none at all? I'm pretty sure not having any bags of tokens is much easier than having multiple bags of tokens to manage...

2. They can easily represent different sorts of information, which as pointed out by others, increases design freedom.

More design freedom is really the only perk I can see to having tokens. But I'm still not convinced that card games need that in order to be great card games.

3. I have a pretty terrible memory, and they help me keep track of things.

Sorry not sorry. I can't feel bad if you can't remember that you gave my guy -2f. Get better at remembering? It's a competitive game. Games take skill. Remembering things is a good skill to have.

4. They're real estate friendly. ...

... How can having a lot of tokens (especially broken up in to multiple bags like you like to do) take up less real estate than having none? Really????

5. Tokens are good for representing durable-but-easily-changeable chunks of information. Like how much gold you have. Or advancement.

There's a lot of netrunner in your post, but to me, tokens are not needed for telling you how much gold you have. I can math with or without tokens.

6. Coming from number 4 & 5, a token-based economy (like Netrunner) is, to me, more interesting than the card-based economies (like L5R and Magic). ...

This would only be a thing if gold carried over through turns. Incidentally, most card games do not. ...

1. Literally literally literally, I promise, tokens are easy for me. I wasn’t making a comparison before, but I will now. The token economy of Netrunner is a) easier and b) more fun for me than L5R gold.

2. For sure. You can have great games with tokens, and great games without them… I think? Come to think of it, I’ve only ever played card games with tokens… Can you recommend any that don't use them? I played Pokemon, Sailor Moon, Yu-Gi-Oh, MtG, and Netrunner, and they all used tokens.

3. If you’re going to criticize people for their cognitive function… maybe don’t? Also, I’ve never played L5R with people who didn’t ever use tokens or dice to track stuff. I’ve got a snarkier answer if you wanted to fight, though.

4. … Do you not believe me? Why would I lie about this? Again, I was there. I’m pretty sure I know what happened. Do you want pics? Gimme a couple months; I’m working away from home/gaming, but when I get back I can show you. But like really, I’d rather you just believed me when I describe my own experience.

5. Yeah, because Netrunner is great! And I have some recent experience with it. But My point was not that tokens make arithmetic easier. My point was that they can represent information that can easily change, but that might last longer than the average duration of a chunk of working memory. L5R gold isn’t in that category. Netrunner credits are.

6. I can’t say that gold/credits/mana/currency do or don’t carry over turns in most games. But they do in Netrunner. And I think it’s fun.

2. For sure. You can have great games with tokens, and great games without them… I think? Come to think of it, I’ve only ever played card games with tokens… Can you recommend any that don't use them? I played Pokemon, Sailor Moon, Yu-Gi-Oh, MtG, and Netrunner, and they all used tokens.

I agree with many of the points you've made! I just wanted to point out that, as far as I can remember, Decipher's Star Wars CCG did not use tokens. Instead, it had a rather interesting (and as far as I know, unique) method of using your deck itself to track your economy, which sometimes meant that if you drew too many cards you may not be able to pay for them!

One thing I don't think I really need to say but will anyway.

No one wants 37+ different tokens for the game. I think most people would prefer it to be 5 or less different ones. But considering what tokens offer having a couple to track various effect is in general going to allow IMO a better game than a game made without them.

I see no good reason to require tokens. Any games that I've played in the past that required tokens were made less desirable by the fact that I needed more than just the cards in my deck. Needing to carry extra bags, boxes, containers, etc. is just annoying. If it helps people with math or remembering great for them but don't push that crap on me.

I doubt we will see quite that hyperbolic number of token types. I think it will likely be limited to Resource, Victory Point, Poison, Damage, and Dishonored. Though, Victory Points could be a counter, and Poison and Damage are iffy at best. Pure speculation of course.

Edible marshmallow tokens are the best.

I think dishonored could be kept the old way, by turning your card upside-down.

Edible marshmallow tokens are the best.

Reminds me of the D&D DM that used Starburst wrapped candies as enemies. Defeat one, eat one.

I think dishonored could be kept the old way, by turning your card upside-down.

Also returning to old gold system (no pooling) don't require any tokens because every gold you paid is immidetially marked by bowed Holding without any surpluses. Also in oldschool L5R they used GP icon in upper right corner (like they did again in 20F) so quasi-stacking of Holdings isn't a huge problem as well.

Well, I'd rather not have to put gold producing holdings in the deck like we had to in the CCG.

Make the economy part of the controllable elements, via stronghold and/or plot/events deck...

It's always been too easy to suffer heavily from a bad gold start or getting only holdings on the turn where you need at least a body...