I guess I missed the question in the OP but I did touch on it.

I like how FFG does their LCG's with all the tokens because then it can be a bit of a hybrid between card game and board game. I personally like the depth those kinds of mechanics add, because as was said above, it becomes more than binary tapped/untapped.

The idea of "lugging around all those tokens" just isn't that big of deal, there will be most likely 3-4 different kinds so it's not really a big deal. Sure it would be easier without them, but what they add is IMO worth the minor effort.

Also I don't think any of us are saying that if you dislike tokens you'll hate this game. But if you hate tokens it will be a strike against this game, because it will make heavy use of them like every other FFG game does.

Speaking of tokens, I'll toss up a question.

Would it be better to have a "Dishonored Personality Token" compared to the old upside down way?

I'm asking this because I was used to "tap" a card the other way, which result as "Bowed and Dishonored". By having a token for the dishonored personality, it could prevent mistakes from players who played several games that include tapping without doing mistakes like that.

I just don't see how anyone has to "lug" tokens. It is not like it requires any effort. I have a token carrier that I have all my tokens in for SW LCG that is divided by tokens for ease of use during play.

Speaking of tokens, I'll toss up a question.

Would it be better to have a "Dishonored Personality Token" compared to the old upside down way?

I'm asking this because I was used to "tap" a card the other way, which result as "Bowed and Dishonored". By having a token for the dishonored personality, it could prevent mistakes from players who played several games that include tapping without doing mistakes like that.

I would prefer a token over the whole flip the card upside down thing yes.

Depending on mechanics, having characters be 2-sided, and you flip them when dishonored could be neat. They can get stats, mechanics, flavor, and even art.

Tough to make it work if they're shuffled into a deck, but not impossible.

Could also work for clan champions (a la 40k leaders) or even dishonored strongholds, since they don't go in decks.

Speaking of tokens, I'll toss up a question.

Would it be better to have a "Dishonored Personality Token" compared to the old upside down way?

Making this in token way means that they will drop for sure "remember out of game state" for cards in discard piles. So "i died dishonored and i'm back rehonored".

They're going to drop card memory anyway, I imagine.

I just don't see how anyone has to "lug" tokens. It is not like it requires any effort. I have a token carrier that I have all my tokens in for SW LCG that is divided by tokens for ease of use during play.

Let me put it this way: When I clumsily drop a card, I notice, and pick it up.

When a spray of tokens hits the floor? Not all of them are getting scooped up.

I just don't see how anyone has to "lug" tokens. It is not like it requires any effort. I have a token carrier that I have all my tokens in for SW LCG that is divided by tokens for ease of use during play.

You just said it doesn't require any effort and then the very next sentence you state you use extra effort for tokens.

Speaking of tokens, I'll toss up a question.

Would it be better to have a "Dishonored Personality Token" compared to the old upside down way?

I'm asking this because I was used to "tap" a card the other way, which result as "Bowed and Dishonored". By having a token for the dishonored personality, it could prevent mistakes from players who played several games that include tapping without doing mistakes like that.

Just to mention: back when I was learning how to play Magic, about 20 years ago, I noticed that the tap symbol had an arrow curved clockwise. Because of that, when I have to tap/bow/kneel/whatever, it is second nature to me to do it clockwise, and when I untap/stand/refresh/whatever, it is ALWAYS counter clockwise. I never lost track of who was dishonored.

Problem is other people don't have such rigid mechanics ingrained into their movement so I had to keep track of their personalities for them since I played dishonor. =P

They're going to drop card memory anyway, I imagine.

Not to derail the topic of too much, but where did you get this information. Last I heard, there has been no information regarding the new game other than the Gencon 2017 launch...

Speaking of tokens, I'll toss up a question.

Would it be better to have a "Dishonored Personality Token" compared to the old upside down way?

I'm asking this because I was used to "tap" a card the other way, which result as "Bowed and Dishonored". By having a token for the dishonored personality, it could prevent mistakes from players who played several games that include tapping without doing mistakes like that.

Obviously, for me, it's better and easier to just turn the card upside down than bringing along extra tokens. To me, tokens clutter up the table even if they aren't on top of cards for marking purposes, people usually just dump out their tokens on the table in to one huge pile. And then (since there are so many different types), you have to go searching through the pile to find the right token to use. It's just an all-around headache to me and I can't understand why people like that so much.

In the CCG, people sometimes used tokens to track force and chi modifiers, but to me, unless they were permanent modifiers, they were unnecessary. And I'd still argue that they were unnecessary even if they were permanent. But people like them. I'm all for people bringing in tokens to play with if they so choose, but I hate when that choice is forced upon me when I don't like the idea of them in the first place. Hell, I never even had a problem when players put their tokens on my cards to help them. That was never a problem for me. I just hate being forced to bring tokens because the game requires them in order to even play. Sure, it may give more design freedom, but it seems more like lazy design if you need tokens in order to make your game work, imo. Like I said, there are numerous card games out there that don't need tokens. Why, all of a sudden, does L5R need them?

I think the markers were good for permanent changes. What I saw once that I really liked was a guy used dice to track the force of his army and his opponents army. They existed only for those battlefields for only those turns. It made it good to check what the total was without recounting every time something happened, especially in the last stand HUGE battles.

I think the markers were good for permanent changes. What I saw once that I really liked was a guy used dice to track the force of his army and his opponents army. They existed only for those battlefields for only those turns. It made it good to check what the total was without recounting every time something happened, especially in the last stand HUGE battles.

That's fair... and I've also seen people just use their pencil/paper for the same effect... Just add/subtract as needed.

Honour, gold, and maybe -chi or poison.

They're going to drop card memory anyway, I imagine.

Not to derail the topic of too much, but where did you get this information. Last I heard, there has been no information regarding the new game other than the Gencon 2017 launch...

It's an educated guess, thus, "I imagine."

Card memory is a pain. No FFG LCGs use it, and even AEG dropped it from Doomtown when they did their reboot.

Although card memory and a dead pile are not necessarily the same thing, I note.

Honour, gold, and maybe -chi or poison.

None of those require tokens. Maybe poison??? But that's only for the person playing the poison deck, not for everyone to lug around. lol

Honour, gold, and maybe -chi or poison.

None of those require tokens. Maybe poison??? But that's only for the person playing the poison deck, not for everyone to lug around. lol

Yea, "require" tokens, yet Netrunner and AGoT both use tokens for currency. I am willing to bet that literally anything that needs to be tracked and is a positive integer, FFG will make tokens for it. (given their redesign of course)

I am pretty ambivalent towards it. I do not like tokens, they are fiddly. I prefer dice. When I played Netrunner I just used dice.

Honor will be a counter (think LoTR Threat Counter or Star Wars Force Dial). Gold tokens and don't forget the magnificent imperial favor token (it will be beautiful).

I would imagine there are some major changes coming to the game that would leverage tokens perhaps allowing allow personalities to have health (-minus damage) and maybe dishonor pile up like force tokens in Star Wars. The more I think about health the more I could envision a scenario where your clan leader is a part of game play/ victory condition (think MtG EDH).

They could take a completely new route with tokens to represent 'armies' - Daimyo style. So you could envision mechanic that allowed for 'put into plan an army token'.

Of course we can dream up anything we'd like - the point is we are really waiting for this to come together and I can't wait.

Oh I didn't even think of an Imperial favor token. That would look wonderful.

Also these FFG tokens and accesories, maybe even look nice sometimes but they still are cardboard stuff and people tend to fast replace them with acrylic ones. Play 150+ games fe in Conquest and see how your tokens and dial start looking.

There will be tokens, of that there is no doubt. I, too, prefer minimal tokens, but as someone who is currently engrossed with AGoT2, I don't find them to be horribly intrusive.

Dishonored can still be "upside-down"

Horvath worked at Wizards during Pearl right?

Gotta get them Pearl Edition Honor Spinner Strongholds

Honour, gold, and maybe -chi or poison.

None of those require tokens. Maybe poison??? But that's only for the person playing the poison deck, not for everyone to lug around. lol

-chi ABSOLUTELY requires tokens. Back in the day I had a Phoenix Black Scroll deck (I now bow my head in shame at the dishonour of using shadowlands cards (-7 Honour)) which required piles of -1 Chi tokens that were created, moved and destroyed by spells. Without tokens it would have been impossible to manage, even with dice. I eventually made my own tokens.

None of those require tokens.

If it involves keeping track of something that can't be done by turning the card, and even sometimes if it can... FFG will include a token for it.