Ok... I'm starting up this thread for discussion on tokens based on what someone said in another thread.

No one seems to be addressing the real issue here, which is: what will tokens be used for? I mean, It's practically guaranteed that, being one of FFG's games, it'll have hundreds of thousands of little, cardboard tokens, so what will they be used for?

I, personally HATE tokens, but I know there are people out there who love having them with their games. I'd really like to know why you do or don't like tokens with your games.

The biggest reason I don't like tokens is because it means lugging extra crap around with me in order to play a game. I hate carrying more stuff than necessary. When I first started playing Netrunner, I never used the tokens that came with the game. I bought a container of mini-six-siders to account for everything. It was way easier for me that way, but I didn't even like having to include that really. When I played Doomtown, I'd just use the tokens my opponents brought so I didn't have to do it! lol.

I'd rather make a deck, have one thing to account for some kind of victory (die, pencil/paper, etc) and that's it. I have a deck in a deck box and that's all I need to play.

But I know there are people out there who like having all the tokens. The more, the better. But I can't understand the reason why that is. Please tell me why you love or hate tokens!!!

I despise tokens. One more stupid thing to lug around to your game.

B-But my Clout tokens!

I like a few tokens, maybe a dozen at most. Any more and the game feels less like a card game and more like a resource management board game.

Hate tokens, they get lost. It's why I rarely buy any fancy ones.

Well, let's see.

Gold, obviously, would get its tokens.

I guess "victory points" will get tokens as well. I imagine Honor victory would require less than 40, Tokens needed should at max around 20. More than that would make it quite impractical to carry around.

Other than that, maybe some follower tokens, or token personalities.

I despise tokens.

I'm afraid you're in for a bad time then...

Game of Thrones has four different types of tokens, Gold, Influence, Power and one First Player token.

Star Wars has Focus, Damage and Shield tokens, plus the Death Star counter. I don't play GoT much but I do play SW and it would be tricky to play the game without tokens. You need to track damage on both your units as well as your objective card. You also need a way to track Focus, because that's a fairly major in game effect.

You can't just 'tap' a card to track focus since you can have 2+ more on it, and normally can only remove one per turn.

They may do things differently with L5R, but you can count on there being tokens in this game and most likely a number of them.

Tokens needed should at max around 20. More than that would make it quite impractical to carry around.

For what it's worth...

Netrunner comes with 100 tokens.

Game of Thrones comes with 71 tokens.

Star Wars comes with 96 tokens.

So I think it's safe to assume that L5R will come with 50+ tokens. Now those all include enough tokens for both players so in theory you only need half of them per player, and there's always extras. But it's unlikely you could get away with only 20 tokens for L5R.

FFG is pretty big on creating mechanics that make use of tokens because IMO anyway the mechanics can be more involved and in general better by using tokens then what you can do without them.

yeah i think that this is one of the few things we can be certain of in the rebuild of l5r. there will be tokens. i wouldn't bet my life that there will be strongholds or all 9 clans, but i would that there will be tokens.

yeah i think that this is one of the few things we can be certain of in the rebuild of l5r. there will be tokens. i wouldn't bet my life that there will be strongholds or all 9 clans, but i would that there will be tokens.

The only thing everyone agrees on.

I love the tokens. And ffg makes great ones. I've got a bunch of the acrylic ones too for the various games. If you don't like tokens you won't like this LCG I'm afraid.

I love the tokens. And ffg makes great ones. I've got a bunch of the acrylic ones too for the various games. If you don't like tokens you won't like this LCG I'm afraid.

I don't know how you can think that because someone doesn't like tokens, they won't like a game. They aren't mutually exclusive at all. I will like the game if it is fun, well balanced, and good mechanics. Just because I absolutely hate tokens doesn't mean I won't like the game. It just means I wish the game didn't have tokens... and if it does, it won't be any different than when I play other games that require tokens. I will just use my opponents' tokens so I don't have to lug my own around with me... cuz it's dumb. lol

So far, I've heard people say that they don't like tokens with their card games and gave reasons...

And I've heard some people say they like tokens, but gave no reasoning as to why they like them.

I'm super curious as to why people like lugging around all those tokens when playing card games.

It's not like they are hard to carry as you are implying.

So far, I've heard people say that they don't like tokens with their card games and gave reasons...

And I've heard some people say they like tokens, but gave no reasoning as to why they like them.

I'm super curious as to why people like lugging around all those tokens when playing card games.

I play Kitsune, that's why.

....or, to quote myself....

Big foxes, little foxes, force reducing foxes, sparrows, hungry bears, angry bears, bees, deer, uncorrupted badgers, snakes, elephants, boars, poo flinging monkeys, butterflies, and maybe a panda.

It's not like they are hard to carry as you are implying.

I never said it was difficult to carry, I said I hate tokens cuz I don't like lugging them around for a card game that (I believe) shouldn't be in a card game. It's extra stuff that shouldn't be there. I like carrying around minimal things. Carrying around a lot of tokens is not fun for me.

I'm super curious as to why people like lugging around all those tokens when playing card games.

Tokens allow mechanics that would be impossible or very impractical in their absence. Multiple exhaustion and Shields in Star Wars, the victory mechanic in AGoT (15 power, but that includes power accumulated in your own pool and by individual cards you control), and so on.

I don't think they're necessarily better or worse mechanics inherently, but the ability to include them vastly expands available design space.

Besides, it's not all that different from needing dice, or a scoring pad, or whatever. And very few are the card games that don't require some kind of mechanism external to the cards themselves, if only for scoring.

tokens basically let you convert binary mechanics (flipping cards over or bowing/tapping) into arithmetic ones, or allow you to add multiple binary mechanics on a single card or in a space without cards. as has been said, its a design space that is a lot wider than you get with just a deck.

that said though, the fact that both my netrunner and lotr boxes have third party token organizer inserts is kind of ridiculous. i mean, they're both amazing games, and i'm not mad at the tokens, but they aren't without their drawbacks.

I'm super curious as to why people like lugging around all those tokens when playing card games.

Tokens allow mechanics that would be impossible or very impractical in their absence. Multiple exhaustion and Shields in Star Wars, the victory mechanic in AGoT (15 power, but that includes power accumulated in your own pool and by individual cards you control), and so on.

I don't think they're necessarily better or worse mechanics inherently, but the ability to include them vastly expands available design space.

Besides, it's not all that different from needing dice, or a scoring pad, or whatever. And very few are the card games that don't require some kind of mechanism external to the cards themselves, if only for scoring.

I liked your reasoning up until you said they aren't that different to scoring pad (I suppose you are referring to some sort of life tracker/honor counter). But that is just one thing you need to be able to play a game. It's been that way since the beginning of CCGs. It's something that everyone is just used to doing in order to play.

But I can see the design freedom in adding tokens. But I don't think it's necessary, tbh. There are soooooo many good card games that don't require tokens and just rely on the inherent mechanics within the cards to make them work. Having more design options with tokens is something card games should be able to do without. To me, tokens belong in board games, not card games... especially ones that go to the competition tournament levels.

A little background on myself for those who don't know me. I am a very passionate and an extremely competitive player. I love traveling around competing at the highest levels and for the most part, do pretty well. With that said, I can see how having a lot of tokens is fine when playing casually with friends at your local game store, but when competing in tournaments, dumping out and cleaning up all those **** tokens every round is the suck! lol

This is FFG. You are going to get your cardboard, and like it. I love FFG, but I feel bad at times for cutting down a tree for my new game. Especially X-wing, where they give you the tokens needed to play that ship. At a certain point, you don't need certain tokens anymore (and they have stopped putting them in a few of the packs). With the LCG, it is just going to be in the Core Set. Based on my limited understanding of the game, we are going to be getting tokens.

Tokens have been intimately linked to CCGs for a very long time, it was just that you had to provide your own. Original L5R had a whole bunch of cards and mechanics in it that made use of tokens, and I remember getting stronghold boxes which had colour-coded bags of glass beads in them. Heck, there was a card in the very first printing of the very first CCG that needed tokens.

What FFG has done is to package very specific tokens with the card game, and made sure to (mostly) use mechanics that use or refer to those tokens. Take Netrunner, for example, where putting one advancement token on something normally costs one money. So they printed the advancement tokens on the back of the money tokens meaning that you can just take one of your money, flip it, and put it where you want the advancement. It's not a mechanic, in the rules sense, but it's clever ergonomic design.

As for what kind of counters I expect with new L5R? I'd refer back to the LBS Awakening decks, which had plastic punch out token sheets. There were buff and de-buff tokens, tokens for one of the resources (water) and some generic tokens for use as whatever was needed.

But I can see the design freedom in adding tokens. But I don't think it's necessary, tbh. There are soooooo many good card games that don't require tokens and just rely on the inherent mechanics within the cards to make them work. Having more design options with tokens is something card games should be able to do without. To me, tokens belong in board games, not card games... especially ones that go to the competition tournament levels.

Card games like poker? Doesn't get much more competitive than that.

At any rate, board game versus card game is a pretty arbitrary distinction. Many board games (especially FFG board games) use many, many cards. Many card games play like board games. Where people draw the line between the two is going to be different for everyone.

You're free to dislike whatever aspect of tokens, of course, but there's plenty of precedent for them in card games generally, and in competitive play.

I think nobody must try to convince Sparks tokens are good. As far as I can tell, Sparks is only saying we could do without them and that he dislikes having to carry tokens around.

I agree with him when he says that having to carry them around is a nuisance. Personally, when I attend our weekly GoT night, I always bring an extra deckbox just for the tokens. And I only bring gold and power tokens for that game.

Like Sparks, I can see that using tokens while designing a game has its benefits, but at some points it can get ridiculous. Some of the L5R CCG starters had glass beads tokens (Jade and Pearl, IIRC). Most of them had no tokens in them, and some of the latest had cardboard tokens, but like 7 or 8 sorts of them (Fire +1F, Poison -1C, Follower 1F, basic +1f, basic -1F, etc.).

At this point we all agree we will have tokens for the L5R LCG, at least for (one of) the victory condition(s), Honor, but I'd much rather be able to keep using my nice and shiny honor counter I've been using for so many years of L5R.

TLDR: The fact that it's pretty sure we'll have tokens doesn't mean we have to like it.

I'll say my 2 zenis about tokens.

I don't hate them, but I don't like them neither. However, I will never acknowledge how useful they are.

The most useful thing that I can see is the visual added value. For example, if a player did a -2F on a personality, after 5-6 actions, without any kind of markers, the -2F may be forgotten by someone. Must I say that not everyone has a good memory for that kind of stuffs? For the visual on what happened in the battle, or even before, because some action may be performed during the action phases. In order to have a fairplay attitude, someone that has good memory for that kind of stuffs, using tokens is an added value for everyone.

Of course, having too much kind of tokens is falling into a flaw, because it slows the pace of the game with too many mechanics. I think that, just with (Of course, this is based on the CCG system) +XF tokens and +XC tokens, it's fairly enough. Having gold or honor tokens may be too much. Gold tokens may be too much, unless you can keep golds from one turn to another, but this again makes the game heavier. Honor tokens may be too much, because there's already honor markers, so why not keep something already existing...

In the end, yes, I do wish there's tokens, which is mostly the case, but I also think that they should be useful and not overwhelming.

As for what kind of counters I expect with new L5R? I'd refer back to the LBS Awakening decks, which had plastic punch out token sheets. There were buff and de-buff tokens, tokens for one of the resources (water) and some generic tokens for use as whatever was needed.

AEG did it again in Emperor edition, putting cardboard token sheets into starters (gold, force/chi manipulation, wealth etc.). And you know what? I have never seen them on the tables. 99% players used standard k6 dices in two colors, to mark "+" and "-" values.

And many depends what way FFG choose. CCG deadly editions (like Emperor) didn't required any tokens becasue everything was just killed or sent home. On other hand IvE+ was full of small Force manipulations where using dices was necessary. Mass force manipulations ("give your Personalities +2F in this battle") also don't need any tokens, all you needed to leave played card on the table.

And many depends what way FFG choose.

You can count on FFG having tokens. Every game they make has tokens in it, because they like to come up with mechanics that require them. It's not that FFG loves tokens, it's that they love what tokens allow them to do with mechanics.