if the base craft weren't so hideously overpriced, we'd have some top-tier contenders with these combos

I'm inclined to agree about the T-70s price tag being way too high. Red Ace and Poe used to see tons of table time because their natural durability lent itself perfectly to the Rebel regen style of play, but that was before the Jumpmasters brought heavy alpha strikes into the competitive scene. There's not a ton you can do with T-70 aces or T-70 generics that isn't paying too high a premium.

I'm starting to think that the cry for "T-65 fix! Omq, QQ!" should probably be "Fix both X-Wing! Omg, QQ!"

it should be

honestly, they both could do with a -2 point cost cut

imo, the big problems are

1.) regeneration is a massive durability swing (see poe)

2.) Biggs is just dandy as is

personally, if I had any control of the situation, I'd do this

1.) all X-wings, T-70 X-wings, E-wings and ARC-170s just get a straight -2 point cost cut (note not Ys, because you have to balance for TLTs)

2.) R5-p9 and R2-d2 get upped to +2 points (so 6 and 5 respectively, but still absolutely worth it )

3.) Biggs alone does not benefit from the point cost (not unprecedented, see also Ten Nub and Rhymer for examples...except in this case the pilot ability is actually worth the point cost increase )

just to open room up in lists for ships that aren't r2-d2 Corran/Norra/Poe (or r5-p9 poe) and Biggs

As long as we're fixing ships where the top tier pilot is fine but the other pilots are much less so (E-Wing), let's talk about the TIE Phantom.

Whisper is fine and can see table time, but as for those other Phantoms, especially the generics....we could use something to tweak those with. Not a ton, but like...you never see them, right? They need a little something.

Depening on point cost, Lightened Frame may open up generic Phantoms, turning them into 4/3/2/2 super-Z95s when uncloaked, at the cost of ACD shenanigans generics cant use anyway.

personally, if I had any control of the situation, I'd do this

1.) all X-wings, T-70 X-wings, E-wings and ARC-170s just get a straight -2 point cost cut (note not Ys, because you have to balance for TLTs)

2.) R5-p9 and R2-d2 get upped to +2 points (so 6 and 5 respectively, but still absolutely worth it )

3.) Biggs alone does not benefit from the point cost (not unprecedented, see also Ten Nub and Rhymer for examples...except in this case the pilot ability is actually worth the point cost increase )

just to open room up in lists for ships that aren't r2-d2 Corran/Norra/Poe (or r5-p9 poe) and Biggs

I'm 100% on board with the plan, just as soon as you tell me how you accomplish all this without actually reprinting any cards, since FFG will never give us this until X-Wing 2.0, which is probably still a minimum of 4 years off.

Tell me!

personally, if I had any control of the situation, I'd do this

1.) all X-wings, T-70 X-wings, E-wings and ARC-170s just get a straight -2 point cost cut (note not Ys, because you have to balance for TLTs)

2.) R5-p9 and R2-d2 get upped to +2 points (so 6 and 5 respectively, but still absolutely worth it )

3.) Biggs alone does not benefit from the point cost (not unprecedented, see also Ten Nub and Rhymer for examples...except in this case the pilot ability is actually worth the point cost increase )

just to open room up in lists for ships that aren't r2-d2 Corran/Norra/Poe (or r5-p9 poe) and Biggs

I'm 100% on board with the plan, just as soon as you tell me how you accomplish all this without actually reprinting any cards, since FFG will never give us this until X-Wing 2.0, which is probably still a minimum of 4 years off.

Tell me!

eh...have you heard of lucid dreaming ?

As long as we're fixing ships where the top tier pilot is fine but the other pilots are much less so (E-Wing), let's talk about the TIE Phantom.

Whisper is fine and can see table time, but as for those other Phantoms, especially the generics....we could use something to tweak those with. Not a ton, but like...you never see them, right? They need a little something.

Depening on point cost, Lightened Frame may open up generic Phantoms, turning them into 4/3/2/2 super-Z95s when uncloaked, at the cost of ACD shenanigans generics cant use anyway.

I know .

If this mod [Lightweight Frame?] is sufficiently cheap, do you think it'd be a semi-viable addition to cheap, generic Phantoms? Like, imagine this thing costs 1pt (probably gonna cost 2 or 3, if the restriction is only that you have 2 agility or less), but like, imagine that it's 1pt. Is a 26pt Phantom worth purchasing if it's a 4/3/2/2 ship against anything with 3 attack dice or more?

It can still explode pretty easily, but at least it has that 3rd defense die to help soak up damage. Advanced Cloaking only works if you have high-PS, and Stygium is solid, but only 1 evade result and only on the first turn of combat, unless you plan to cloak up constantly to exit and re-enter combat with them. I dunno. Such a ship is probably doomed to explode, but at that point it's just Biggs with a bigger gun, more agility, and less HP, right? Ignore it at your peril.

And frankly, I'm pretty excited about it.

The falcon needs a fix. Fire twice. Once from top turret. Once from bottom turret. Two separate attacks.

Right, and if you shoot in arc you should be able to reroll at least two of those blanks!

I agree, IF we put the turret directional firing arcs on it like that s coolio and logical FFG design...

it is , imo, actually a hell of a lot of fun to fly FFG's first unofficial "broadside" ship in x-wing as the playstyle is just radically different to anything we've had before

ofc, x-wing is really **** late to the party

Edit: I love the Ywing title but it needs more. Maybe some good astromechs will help it enough, they probably need a munition focused title.

R2 Advanced Astromech

Astromech / 1pt upgrade

Increase your pilot skill value by 1.

If your pilot skill value is "4" or higher and you do not have a [EPT] upgrade icon, your upgrade bar gains 1 [EPT] upgrade icon.

I think Y-Wings are fine if they can easily be bumped up to PS3 for one point. At 26points (Grey Squadron) they're probably a hair over costed. What's more, generic Red Squadron Pilots, Grey Squadron Pilots, and Blackmoon Squadron Pilots can all get an EPT slot now, along with the much deserving Horton Slam.

Honestly, this fix wouldn't be enough to do away with the problems of the above mentioned ships, but I feel like it's a start. Also, I wouldn't mind seeing Luke Skywalker with Lone Wolf and this astromech on the table, clocking in at PS9 for anyone who had the stones to run him without a regen droid.

The list of ships that need help to stay competitive is larger than it has ever been before and it is only going to grow.

Practically, for these ships to be helped in a reasonable time frame, upgrade cards that help multiple ships will have to be released.

Things like....

0 point title limited to small base generic pilots without repositioning actions

0 point title limited to small base generic pilots with less than 3 agility

0 point title limited to small base generic pilots & a specific faction

Customizable generic pilots would be interesting. Generics are mostly held back by their lack of access to upgrades.

Another idea worth considering is raising the squad cost from 100 to 120.

X-wing has reached a point where measures more drastic than anything we have seen before will be required.

The list of ships that need help to stay competitive is larger than it has ever been before and it is only going to grow.

Practically, for these ships to be helped in a reasonable time frame, upgrade cards that help multiple ships will have to be released.

Things like....

0 point title limited to small base generic pilots without repositioning actions

0 point title limited to small base generic pilots with less than 3 agility

0 point title limited to small base generic pilots & a specific faction

Customizable generic pilots would be interesting. Generics are mostly held back by their lack of access to upgrades.

Another idea worth considering is raising the squad cost from 100 to 120.

X-wing has reached a point where measures more drastic than anything we have seen before will be required.

I don't agree with the hyperbole, but I can see a rebel small ship only upgrade though especially if was limited to being about astromechs or torpedoes (battle of xyz title).

Let's break it down:

Wave one, all these ships have gotten love in one way or another, but the advanced is still just Vader only, X-wing is still Biggs, TIEs need Crack like Squints need PTL, and Y-wings still don't have EPTs (for rebels)

Wave 2, a-wings and squints do ok, falcon is getting a new box, scum Firesprays sometimes show up but Imp Sprays just don't get any love, even with tailgunner.

Wave 3, Bwings just don't cut it anymore (according to the meta people), bombers got some love recently, Palpmobile keeps the shuttle around, and HWKs can do amazing things for Scum. Rebel HWKs tend to be a niche thing in weird lists.

Wave 4, defenders totally rule these days! E-wings are still only Horn outside of epic, and even he is having it rough right now. Phantoms will always have a place. Z-95s are great blockers and missile platforms, and can hold their own.

Wave 5, these big boys are still around somewhat, they wax and wane with each new wave.

Wave 6, scummies! Almost everything took a back seat to Toilet Seats, tho crab bots can still be a thing. Starvipers and Scyks are the perpetually in-need-of-a-fix ships and will most likely have the Aces//Epic pack-in treatment soon.

Wave 7, Punishers still suck even after the Unlikely advent of the Munitions Meta. Party bus is ok, K-wings are ok but niche, Khyraxz started as a slap to the X-wing and then was abandoned because 15 red dice and 25 hp behind 2 greens just wasn't good enough for net-listers. A zero point illicit could fix that right up

Wave 8. Poor Misthunter never had a chance against the Potty of Doom. The Ghost/Attack Shuttle does ok but the TAP is only Inquisitor in Palp Aces for now, and that's even with the title.

So there you go, a look at the past. The list of Never Used still has a core of Scyk/K-fighter/Punisher/E-wing generics with a nebulous cloud of Starvipers, T-65s, B-wings and the rest being almost 'good enough' but not quite making it. The margin for effeciency and action economy is all slim that you need a vibro blade to slice it, meaning any 'fixes' for most ships that are 'lacking' must be somewhat underwhelming in order to not completely break the game.

And yet the Junkmaster is still a thing. Go figure.

I still think Imp Vets is the single greatest boxed expansion this game has ever seen! Now that's how you fix ships!

If we assumed the meta was a little less harsh, then I'd say the ships that needed a fix were probably:

T-65

T-70

E-Wing (presumably would need a fix that doesn't buff Corran much)

HWK (Rebel, as scum versions benefit from arguably better pilot abilities and illicit-platform support)

Star Viper

Scyk

Khiraxz

Firespray

TIE Punisher

This with highlighted ships desperate for a fix.

I love the firespray, and it's definetly not a "bad" ship, but it does lack compared to many if not all the other large ships in one way or another.

It's a pure jouster since it can't reposition without extra upgrades, yet its 10 hit points at 2 agility can go fast sometimes.

Scum Epic needs a fix BADLY like NOW

cant fix what isn't there.

I love the firespray, and it's definetly not a "bad" ship, but it does lack compared to many if not all the other large ships in one way or another.

It's a pure jouster since it can't reposition without extra upgrades, yet its 10 hit points at 2 agility can go fast sometimes.

Kath and Tail gunner is like Peanut Butter and Jelly.

Edit: I love the Ywing title but it needs more. Maybe some good astromechs will help it enough, they probably need a munition focused title.

R2 Advanced Astromech

Astromech / 1pt upgrade

Increase your pilot skill value by 1.

If your pilot skill value is "4" or higher and you do not have a [EPT] upgrade icon, your upgrade bar gains 1 [EPT] upgrade icon.

I think Y-Wings are fine if they can easily be bumped up to PS3 for one point. At 26points (Grey Squadron) they're probably a hair over costed. What's more, generic Red Squadron Pilots, Grey Squadron Pilots, and Blackmoon Squadron Pilots can all get an EPT slot now, along with the much deserving Horton Slam.

Honestly, this fix wouldn't be enough to do away with the problems of the above mentioned ships, but I feel like it's a start. Also, I wouldn't mind seeing Luke Skywalker with Lone Wolf and this astromech on the table, clocking in at PS9 for anyone who had the stones to run him without a regen droid.

No, this solution is not working.

Maximum reachable ordinary PS value right now is 11.

The problem is your bot suggestion would make it possible to bump both Wedge and Poe to 12 (natural PS 9, Veteran Instincts +bot) - this invalidates both Roark and Epsilon Ace.

Apart from that I do not think that PS value is the T65's problem

I'm 100% on board with the plan, just as soon as you tell me how you accomplish all this without actually reprinting any cards, since FFG will never give us this until X-Wing 2.0, which is probably still a minimum of 4 years off.

Tell me!

Quite simple:

Call it want you want - Title

X-Wing, E-Wing only* (-2pts)

If you equip an Astromech that permits you to recover a shield, it costs an extra 2 squad points.

(* = not sure why FGD included ARC's, they seem too new to make that assessment - and can't see him having a bias towards that ship )

(Also, not quite sure what he was saying with item #3... that Biggs should not be allowed to take the title/mod/fix?)

- - - - -

Then, if done Imp Vet style, a second Title...

The Other Option - Title

X-Wing, E-Wing only* (0pts)

Your upgrade bar gains 1 [Astromech] upgrade icon. You cannot equip any upgrade costing more than 2 squad points.

When instructed to discard an [Astromech] upgrade, discard all your [Astromech] upgrades.

(I have not looked at possible double Astro combo's that could create - perhaps there would too many broken combo's... I just like the idea of a "hybrid Astro")

(perhaps the second sentence could instead be: You cannot equip any unique upgrades.)

(I would also liked to be able to add "lose the [Torpedo] upgrade icon" if required for balancing but it'd probably be too many words)

I think people are all too keen to write off pilots or entire ships based on what they hear or on the cut-throat nature of power in the game now whereby anything that isn't breaking new boundaries in efficiency is instantly labelled as 'DOA', which is why we end up with these ludicrously extensive 'fix lists'.

Personally, I'd consider only these ships to need genuine, Defender-style fixes:

M3-A 'Scyk'

Just a little bit pricy for what you get from it - the title card is at fault here, as it should have been 0 points. Frustrating, since the perfect 'fix' is not possible without reprinting the card, which of course FFG want to avoid.

A ship-specific Modification that is either free, or even negative points, is what I'm expecting for this one. This way, FFG avoid making the existing title pointless (by releasing an improved version or a different one altogether).
Other than that, though, the ship is quite effective as a cheap cannon carrier, and Mindlink in particular really helps it out.

Starviper

A similar problem, unfortunately. A second, unlimited title similar to the /x7 (reduces cost and has a positive effect) helps out non-Virago ships, but for the Virago itself perhaps a Starviper-specific (or at least oriented) System or Illicit?

Any other ship feels like it can be 'fixed' by improving its' available options - for example, the solution for non-Corran E-Wings (and by extent the X-Wing) is the Astromech slot, since then Corran would have to give up regen in order to use any new option. Using a mandatory 'fix' upgrade any other way runs the risk of either making Corran too good, or forcing the upgrade to have clunky restrictions in order to exclude only him.

The Punisher's named pilots are both excellent, and the main problem with them is finding lists to fit them into. Putting them alongside comparable threats (Whisper or Quickdraw, for example) helps prevent them getting singled out so easily, or punishes (no pun intended) the opponent for focusing on them.

The Kihraxz is a relatively cheap 3 attack ship with an Illicit slot. What on earth more do people want from it? Vectored Thrusters helps give it some options, and the Cloaking Device can be fun on the named pilots. Cobra can be a terrifying cruise missile if flown properly.

The T-70 is getting a slew of new pilots, all of them with great abilities (Nien Nunb in particular), and two great choices for the up-til-now-underwhelming Tech slot, within the next couple of weeks. Not to mention that a Red Squadron Veteran with Crack Shot, Targeting Astromech and Integrated Astromech is a really solid ship already.

Y-Wings were at the top-end of the game less than a year ago, remain consistent and reliable, and yet some people think they need to be 'fixed'?. Each turret option has a place on it, the named pilots (both Rebel and Scum) have decent abilities, it can be built a multitude of ways...tell me exactly what more it needs?

The G-1A (proclaimed as 'DOA' from the very first preview) has fantastic upgrade options and the differing effective builds honestly stagger me. Coming up against 4-LOM with Stay on Target, Advanced Sensors, Cloaking Device, Outlaw Tech, and Stygium Paticle Accelerator melted my **** brain. Or perhaps a simpler Zuckuss with VI, FCS and the title - 32pts is dirt cheap for what you're getting there.

The Firespray is a bit behind the curve at the moment, yes, but Tail Gunner is a great start towards helping it out without 'fixing' it, and I'd expect more of this in the near future.

I worry that the Imperial Veterans (and the Raider before it) has led players to believe that the slightest weakness or deviation from absolute efficiency means a ship needs to be 'fixed', or to not even bother to try things out if the internet hive-mind has told them that they're bad, to the point where I dread previews and the discussions that follow since people will all too readily disregard ships without ever having put them on the table or even seeing all the cards included (Most recent examples I've seen - Duchess, Resistance Han, Shara Bey, the ENTIRETY of the Quadjumper and Sabine's TIE).

Perhaps it's just the kind of person that I am, but I deliberately go against these accepted truths all the time - I'm planning to print up a t-shirt that says 'I flew Defenders before they were cool' - and actively refuse to fly a lot of overused pilots like Fel or Biggs at all.
And I swear, if I see one more 'fix' idea that just hands out Boost or Barrel Roll I'm going to break something.

Rant over.

X-wing fix (title)

Add boost AND B-roll to your actions.

(Malus triggered)

The X-Wng has her fix (argue it good or not enough, eh?). Y-Wing also has her fix (again, fodder for discussion). The Scyk has her fix (albeit not good at its cost). Imperial Firespray will never see a fix. The Starviper needs a bit of a fix because it's almost really good. But this one, she needs one and not only hasn't got a whiff of a fix, but got a buff due to the d$&@ Jumpmaster fiasco:

Hello there,

imho the starviper is the one that needs a fix and will get one pretty soon. I assume that (the still missing) Scum-veterans-pack will include the Starviper and the Kihraxz . The Viper mostly "just" needs a better title (like removal of torpedo and cost reduction) and maybe some better pilots. Might even be that Talonbane will be seated in a viper . That changes should do the trick. Why the Kihraxz and not the M3A ?? Again I assume the M3A will be featured at the (also still missin) huge ship for scum implementing a mod maybe making it possible to run two titles (and of course introducing another title). The fix for the M3A is pretty difficult to do I think since there are several things to change on it to make it competetive for 100pts. battles.

The T65 most likely will also get its fix when the new movie is at the cinemas (or shortly after) since the aera the movie takes place in could bring a chance to improve the most iconic ships (maybe even the A-wing ) of this period.

The punishers could need a fix though...but I do not think there will be one soon since they can become highly OP if the fix isn't really done well. At the moment they ARE pretty nice but only in custom- and epicbattles and most likely only deathrain and redline. Since they are missing an elite-talent the basic pilots are pretty hard to play since when being played in epic they are shot down too quickly. But fixing the punisher could still be done by adding a title since there is non yet.

A fix I would really like would be about the Z-95 not mentioned yet. WTF the Z95 ? Until now it is a pretty bad swarm-ship mostly used to fill up points. Thats a bit sad since the Z95 is a pretty ship in my opinion. A few generic pilots with elite-skills would be a very nice addition and would make the Z-95 swarm a nice alternative again.

Another dream of mine would be a phantom -basic-pilot at skill 6 with an elite-talent. Yes I know - that one is absolutely secondary for tournament plays but would be really cool for epic and custom formats.

I don't think the Lambda should be fixed since it can be equipped very differently to adjust what it should do. Yes...in 100 pts. it will most likely just stay the palp-shuttle but again in epic and custom you can adjust the cow just as you want it to be.

The E-wing absolutely needs some changes! Just one pilot may be seen in tournaments although Ethan ain't that bad either. But at 100 pts. this one is just to expensive to be played. In epic and custom he might be an option. The other pilots are just useless. The E-Wing also could be fixed pretty nicely by just adding a title. BUT the thing that HAS to be considered is that any fix on the E-wing could make Corran extremely op so the balancing is pretty hard.

Have a nice day guys n girls,

shadow

You have to look at what role they envisioned for the ships. Will the T-65 get "fixed"?

Probably not because they have some amazing pilots, an average stateline and dial. Power creep is part of the problem but it is essentially unavoidable as the game evolves and gets larger.

How dull would the game if they based power and complexity by the first few waves?

How many times can you attempt to fix a ship? They release epic ships and aces as attempts to fix them and the T-65 has already had it's pass with pilots and IA.
Scum is still owed it's 2 epic ships to attempt to fix it's older ships like the the K, Scyk, maybe Star Viper also.

They also can't just keep releasing "aces and veterans" to fix a ship because that's not really new content (yet it is, I know) so there is the business aspect as well as the health of the game.

I also think there are ship pilots that are not meant to be used, as odd as that sounds. The YT-2400 is there because of Dash Rendar, then it's fill in the blanks. I could be way off but it does feel like some releases (older) are simply for a ship and a named pilot or two. That says to me that the Wild Space Fringer for example, is not going to get a "fix" because the cost and effort does not justify the return to them as a business or to the health of the game.

No one is clamoring to use that ship, let's be honest.

We also have to have reasonable expectations of these guys, I imagine it's a fairly thankless job with half the community loving you for a release and the other one posting how they wish you had died in a plane crash. People make mistakes and they don't have thousands of minds working on every possibility of combination and matchups which is what happens on the forum.

So they do make silly calls like an EPT on the scout.Then again, if it wasn't for the EPT would people use the scout? probably not.

Scyk is supposed to be a TIE, that's what they balanced it against.

K Fighter is supposed to be balanced against the X-Wing with a better dial but less shielding

Viper is supposed to be the interceptor for Scum

IDK what the fk they were thinking with the Punisher and I believe that because of the Punisher we will never ever see an XG-1 Gunboat.

I think people need to accept that the T-65 has had it's pass, got a bunch of great pilots but the ship is what it was meant to be in their mind. You are not going to get a "fix", what you get is astromechs that add to it's versatility in addition to it's lovely pilots. The vast majority of other ships do not enjoy that luxury.

TIE fighters and T-65's are still relevant to this day, something you can't say for a lot of other ships from the early releases.

I think people need to accept that the T-65 has had it's pass, got a bunch of great pilots but the ship is what it was meant to be in their mind. You are not going to get a "fix", what you get is astromechs that add to it's versatility in addition to it's lovely pilots. The vast majority of other ships do not enjoy that luxury.

Sir if I could shake your hand I would. Every time I see a poorly thought out 'S-Foils' title for the X-Wing I cringe. People seem to forget that, with Integrated, the T-65 is at the same efficiency as the B-Wing, which was a complete staple for a long time. Fundamentally there is nothing wrong with the ship, I just don't think most players have got out of the 'X-Wings are bad' mindset and actually flown any of them other than Biggs.

It could use a wider variety of Astromechs, but we've been getting them, and will continue to get them.

with Integrated, the T-65 is at the same efficiency as the B-Wing

Apparently not. This is supposedly one of those bits of persistent misinformation.

The X-wing's problem is that it has nothing going for it. If you take the plastic model off the peg you have a dull dial, the worst action bar in the game, a fairly bog standard statline and no tricks to speak of. It's a dull ship that fails to excel in a single department. When it was new its trick was raw firepower as the only 3 dice primary but it lost that in Wave 2. When constrasted against what exists now it's uninspiring and forgettable. The only reason anyone even tries to use it any more is because of the model on the peg.

The vast majority of ships and pilots people are complaining about in this thread have seen successful tournament play at some point in the last year or so.

I wonder if anyone ever bothers to check list juggler before making wildly hyperbolic claims about ship x y or z seeing zero competitive play.

T-65 generics are good ships now, they just don't see play because ALL generic ships that don't have turrets are being held down by Palpatine Aces and Dengaroo. I would like to point out that T-65s in general are seeing way more tournament play than B-Wings or Z-95s. It's not the T-65's fault that generic in-arc ships are being punished so heavily right now.