Personally i prefer the LW + SD build on Ryad. 37pts and hilariously hard to hurt. Her evasiveness is her offense, and im not just talking raw dice im talking her maneuverability.

Shes arguably worse than OL in a 1on1 situation.

What does the rest of the list look like?

First time i ran it i was doing a double bomber list. Crackshot, Homers, EM, LRS, and one with Seismics one with Protons. Ryad was intended to be my last ship on purpose, the gammavets took out whatever i felt could deal with her reliably (Omegaleader for one, since she can out maneuver him but if he gets a shot shes probably getting hit).

LW isnt always a good answer since obviously if shes range1-2 of allies she doesnt get it. I tried pairing her with an outmaneuver Backdraft and found their patterns dont mesh well rofl i was constantly just in range2 of something. I could see it being great with a palpmobile since the palpmobile can easily be nowhere near her, so she only has to worry about the other ship.

They are incredibly good, but they are probably still too new for people to be complaining about quite yet. Everyone is probably just happy they're flying against Imperial fighters other than Soontir right now.

Expect Ryad to become the new Soontir, especially given her increased resiliency to things like Feedback Array, Black Market Slicer Tools, Vader (crew), and other "Ace-Hate" upgrades.

She's kinda like a B-Wing and Soontir Fel had a baby. May the Force be with us all...

.....Keyan Fel?

Soontirlander obviously

I think a big part of how much a new ship/upgrade is discussed (or complained about!) might not be down to power level but down to how much the new ship bends the meta around it.

x7 Defenders are good, but (a) Defenders have been around for ever and (b) they do more or less what a lot of Imperial ships do. They gel with palp aces, but there's no alpha strike, they are simply another manoeuvrable Imperial small base fighter. But the stuff that works well against the top Imperial lists still work against lists with Defenders in them. They're good - but they don't really force an adaptation.

U-boats on the other hand were a paradigm shift. Suddenly the torp alpha-strike was there and if you didn't adapt to it, you died. New tactics were required, certain lists just died off or gambled on not facing them. This forced a meta shift as lists that were working just fine (e.g. rebel shield regen) just couldn't handle 3 torps to the face.

Now that they have been out a bit and they are top tables almost everywhere, I figured there would be more people posting about them like they are the new contracted scout.

Because there isn't I feel it would be cathartic for us all to hug it out and give our campfire horror story about a TIE Defender (or two) mauling your list, shrugging off all your attacks, blocks and stresses in a dejavu nightmare of K-Turns.

Then, it will bring us closer together as a community as we devise ways to fight these terrors of the night.

I think there hasn't been threads about Defenders breaking the game because you pay for what you get.

With the Scout JM5K you get a lot of upgrade slots that can be abused for 4 more points than a rookie X Wing pilot. I also think it's the EPT on a PS 3 ship that's the breaking point. Also Defenders die to focus fire just like any other ship, it's not that JM5K's dont, it's the initial strike that JM5K's can deliver that can make at least one of your Aces a pink mist for such a cheap outlay. I have been on both ends of the Defender party, ie been smashed by them and smashed by them. It's all about how well they are flown, JM5K's are an extremely forgiving ship.

I think my biggest concern is that it's easier to actively counter/stop a TIE/D in its tracks. Your best blocking efforts against the x7 will still leave them with an evade token (and the ability to activate Juke).

And any list flown by the "best player ever" is going to show some extreme potential. You need to put them in the hands of equal, preferably veteran, players.

But, the rub is, x7 is MUCH easier to fly and do well with, so they're everywhere. And everyone seeing them get beat down while /Ds are eating people aren't taking into account, I think, player skill. Or not enough, anyway.

Statistically, maybe /D has been doing better, on average, because so few people fly them, hah.

And, again, I am NOT saying, in any way, that /D is bad.

Edit: Don't text and attempt to write post, kids.

I agree that x7s are easier to fly, therefore more prevalent. Heck, I'm an x7 man myself. But the TIE/D has its uses if one is willing to pay for it. Unfortunately, I think a lot of people dismiss the TIE/D.

Like ive said in other threads, the x7 defender is one of the most solid ships out there. Its so self-sufficient and easy to fly you can slap it into any list you got the points for and it'll work

xD requires a list built around it.

IMO there haven't been many complaint posts about x7 Defenders because they don't feel that over the top (regardless whether they are or not).

From my experience with 'X is OP' threads a significant amount of people don't really do math and/or a balance analysis. They just play some games and, if they feel X is OP, they post. JM5k for example can alpha half your list and then you lost. Period. So obviously they feel OP if your list can't handle them.

Defenders in comparison feel down to earth: they move once,take one action, you can shoot them and you can kill them. Even if you have no chance, it feels like you do.

I think defenders are pretty balanced now because of the niche they fill. They aren't arc dodgers because most don't have high enough PS along with the ability to boost and barrel roll. They can take some hits due to the focus and evade very turn with x7. However they can be very predictable and can struggle against arc dodgers.

The lack of autothrusters hinders their defenses some. If they could have a free evade, focus, and autothrusters then I could see them being considered OP.

They also are fairly expensive as far as imperial "aces" go.

Seek out video of the Australian Nationals Finals and you'll see that good defender players have no real problem dealing with arc dodgers.

When flown well, there is nothing an arc dodger can do to get out of a defender's line of fire. That 4 white K is brutal. Sure everyone knows its coming, but (when there is nothing they can do about it) that does not matter. When I play against Soontir and other such ships, I tend to enjoy that look of powerlessness the opponent gets once I initiate combat.

"Initiate" that's the key right there to success. When flying Defenders you need to come in at an angle that benefits you and that 4K. Flying head on is rarely the best choice.

Finally, since no one has mentioned them, I think that TIE/D's are the more potent of the two new titles. Now, you have to invest in them and build around them, unlike an x7 who can a reasonably independent piece of a build. A friend of mine is currently on something like a 15 wins to 1 loss streak with a duel TIE/D list, even mulching Palp defenders. Yeah, Tie/D's aren't as defensive, but that doesn't matter much when the enemy is already dead.

The D title is so sexy, but so hard to actually make work. The Defenders do not have a reliable way to get tokens or rerolls on both shots. Predator is really their only option and that's only 1 or 2 dice (and can only be used by pilots with an EPT). A support ship might help with this problem, but that adds another level of complexity. Vessery might be the best candidate for the D title if you can reliably keep a TL on his target each round.

The D title is so sexy, but so hard to actually make work. The Defenders do not have a reliable way to get tokens or rerolls on both shots. Predator is really their only option and that's only 1 or 2 dice (and can only be used by pilots with an EPT). A support ship might help with this problem, but that adds another level of complexity. Vessery might be the best candidate for the D title if you can reliably keep a TL on his target each round.

I do agree that Vessery, with spotters, probably has the best efficiency of the TIE/Ds. Plus it being easier to kit him out to be TIE/D further adds to his suitability. For a one TIE/D build, he's a sure bet (as long as he has spotters).

Has anyone else playing defenders annoyed by everyone saying it's OP? Yeah I've won a bunch of tournaments with them, but people just don't know how to fly against it yet and all they do is complain instead of going out and countering it. For instance, I don't want to see Blount with ion pulse middles, or Miranda with Homing Missles, Jax, well flown Fenn Rau, Autoblaster turret, Hera Pilot on the Ghost with autoblaster, Conner Nets, and much more I can't think of right now. Also I started running the 186th Squadron Triple Defender list like days before I even heard about them talking about it and am now being called a "netlister". First, I made the list by myself and second why would that be bad? The internet is a tool, you putting dumb **** on your ships doesn't mean I should too just so I won't be mistaken for a net lister.

Has anyone else playing defenders annoyed by everyone saying it's OP?

Not really. Mostly because I kind of agree with those people; it would not have killed FFG to work in an opportunity for counterplay on TIE/x7. Make it an action to make it weak to stress, or put in an "if you did not overlap..." clause to allow blocking.

Also, OP has never meant "invincible", it just means a certain thing is overpowered compared to the field. I find it hard to argue with someone who claims that about TIE/x7, even though there are indeed things which do very well against them (BroBots and Phantoms to add to your list).

I mean, the Commonwealth Defenders list absolutely trashes Dengaroo. I'd say the matchup is something like 90-10 in the Defenders' favour, and that's me being generous. But that doesn't mean Dengaroo isn't also very OP.

Has anyone else playing defenders annoyed by everyone saying it's OP? Yeah I've won a bunch of tournaments with them, but people just don't know how to fly against it yet and all they do is complain instead of going out and countering it. For instance, I don't want to see Blount with ion pulse middles, or Miranda with Homing Missles, Jax, well flown Fenn Rau, Autoblaster turret, Hera Pilot on the Ghost with autoblaster, Conner Nets, and much more I can't think of right now. Also I started running the 186th Squadron Triple Defender list like days before I even heard about them talking about it and am now being called a "netlister". First, I made the list by myself and second why would that be bad? The internet is a tool, you putting dumb **** on your ships doesn't mean I should too just so I won't be mistaken for a net lister.

I wouldn't worry too much about being called a "netlister". It's sad attempt to make people feel bad because they don't like your list or because it's powerful or just a common sight.

The truth is there are rarely unique lists because the hivemind of X-Wing players are already smashing all new and old combos together to see what sticks.

I've never picked a list up from these forums but everytime I have put together a new list that I've never seen anyone play somone will walk over and recognise that list ah yes thats the "insert name here" list, yeah i saw that one on the forum too.

Last time I played I put together a list a day or 2 before the torunament because I really wanted to use IG88D in something and the first guy I played made the same list, or so it sounded like.

Not everyone even enjoys list building and theory crafting, same as some don't like doing the effeciency and mathwing that some seem to enjoy.

I enjoy making up lists, especially after I lose games. I'll never sit there and run the numbers though, I just have no interest in it or find that fun. When i first played at a tournament a couple of people told me to go online and find a popular list and play that... aka a netlist.

I'm sure if I did then I'd be called a netlister, damned if you do and damned if you don't.

I love defenders! But I don't use X7. I use TIE/D!

I flew three of 'em against a very meta list (forgot which one - maybe Dengaroo?) being flown by possibly the best player in my town. I, being not a good pilot, proceeded to lose two D's in the initial joust. All I was left with was one basic defender with TIE/D and a tractor beam. And I won! That last defender was the luckiest little twerp I ever saw - just dodged everything and completely nuked his opponents.

So yeah - the reason not a lot of people complain about defenders is because we all love flying them!

Has anyone else playing defenders annoyed by everyone saying it's OP? .

No, because I'm the first to say the Commonwealth list is op and I identify Palpatine as the problem so that nips those discussions in the bud.

Absent palp they're not op, just good. Thing is that they will out-turn you (jumpmaster sometimes excepted. Also that t70 no one uses, I guess), so you need an answer that isn't "turn harder". Which is where a lot of lists fall down.

Come on guys, each time you use a list name for the first time in a topic, link to the list.

Commonwealth list is what? Ryad, Vessery, Palp?

Ryad/PtL/x7/mk2

Vessery/x7/Juke

Omicron/Palp

Has anyone else playing defenders annoyed by everyone saying it's OP? Yeah I've won a bunch of tournaments with them, but people just don't know how to fly against it yet and all they do is complain instead of going out and countering it. For instance, I don't want to see Blount with ion pulse middles, or Miranda with Homing Missles, Jax, well flown Fenn Rau, Autoblaster turret, Hera Pilot on the Ghost with autoblaster, Conner Nets, and much more I can't think of right now. Also I started running the 186th Squadron Triple Defender list like days before I even heard about them talking about it and am now being called a "netlister". First, I made the list by myself and second why would that be bad? The internet is a tool, you putting dumb **** on your ships doesn't mean I should too just so I won't be mistaken for a net lister.

I wouldn't worry too much about being called a "netlister". It's sad attempt to make people feel bad because they don't like your list or because it's powerful or just a common sight.

The truth is there are rarely unique lists because the hivemind of X-Wing players are already smashing all new and old combos together to see what sticks.

I've never picked a list up from these forums but everytime I have put together a new list that I've never seen anyone play somone will walk over and recognise that list ah yes thats the "insert name here" list, yeah i saw that one on the forum too.

Last time I played I put together a list a day or 2 before the torunament because I really wanted to use IG88D in something and the first guy I played made the same list, or so it sounded like.

Not everyone even enjoys list building and theory crafting, same as some don't like doing the effeciency and mathwing that some seem to enjoy.

I enjoy making up lists, especially after I lose games. I'll never sit there and run the numbers though, I just have no interest in it or find that fun. When i first played at a tournament a couple of people told me to go online and find a popular list and play that... aka a netlist.

I'm sure if I did then I'd be called a netlister, damned if you do and damned if you don't.

So true, there just are so narrow viable options for each ship that its incredibly easy to come up with the same lists. I remember theorizing Nathan Eides second place worlds list a few months before worlds and I sure as hell wouldn't claim he "netlisted it from me".

Now are TIE Defenders with the x7 title a bit too strong? Yes, I don't think that has ever been at question, ever since Major Juggler declared them the new base line for efficiency.

The D title is so sexy, but so hard to actually make work. The Defenders do not have a reliable way to get tokens or rerolls on both shots. Predator is really their only option and that's only 1 or 2 dice (and can only be used by pilots with an EPT). A support ship might help with this problem, but that adds another level of complexity. Vessery might be the best candidate for the D title if you can reliably keep a TL on his target each round.

From what I have seen from another guy playing, Predator has worked well enough to keep him in the winning bracket. I think he would prefer Vessery, but his team composition makes feeding Vessery problematic.

I do agree that Vessery, with spotters, probably has the best efficiency of the TIE/Ds. Plus it being easier to kit him out to be TIE/D further adds to his suitability. For a one TIE/D build, he's a sure bet (as long as he has spotters).

Key to making /D work is the tie shuttle carrying a fleet officer when both defenders have two focus and a TL things melt fast.

I find the weaker defence isn't a big issue when you can kill a ship a turn.

I think x7 Defenders are less complained about because they don't really do any one thing ridiculously well so there's nothing to focus on as being the source of brokenness. The defensive token stacking comes close, though. As others have said, they're very solid ships with no real weaknesses but they still fundamentally play "normal" X-Wing unlike "annoying" arc-dodgers or overloaded PS3 freighters with more firepower than some entire lists, or Dengaroo where all the damage output is from a single ship.

There just seems to be something that feels less abusive about a ship like the x7 Defender, probably because you still get to shoot at it a lot, even if those shots don't do much damage. The middling PS and relative lack of repositioning of most Defenders also helps opponents feel like they have a chance too.

The D title is so sexy, but so hard to actually make work. The Defenders do not have a reliable way to get tokens or rerolls on both shots. Predator is really their only option and that's only 1 or 2 dice (and can only be used by pilots with an EPT). A support ship might help with this problem, but that adds another level of complexity. Vessery might be the best candidate for the D title if you can reliably keep a TL on his target each round.

From what I have seen from another guy playing, Predator has worked well enough to keep him in the winning bracket. I think he would prefer Vessery, but his team composition makes feeding Vessery problematic.

I do agree that Vessery, with spotters, probably has the best efficiency of the TIE/Ds. Plus it being easier to kit him out to be TIE/D further adds to his suitability. For a one TIE/D build, he's a sure bet (as long as he has spotters).

Key to making /D work is the tie shuttle carrying a fleet officer when both defenders have two focus and a TL things melt fast.

I find the weaker defence isn't a big issue when you can kill a ship a turn.

Agreed on the defensive. The best defense is to not get shot at at all.

Has anyone else playing defenders annoyed by everyone saying it's OP? Yeah I've won a bunch of tournaments with them, but people just don't know how to fly against it yet and all they do is complain instead of going out and countering it. For instance, I don't want to see Blount with ion pulse middles, or Miranda with Homing Missles, Jax, well flown Fenn Rau, Autoblaster turret, Hera Pilot on the Ghost with autoblaster, Conner Nets, and much more I can't think of right now. Also I started running the 186th Squadron Triple Defender list like days before I even heard about them talking about it and am now being called a "netlister". First, I made the list by myself and second why would that be bad? The internet is a tool, you putting dumb **** on your ships doesn't mean I should too just so I won't be mistaken for a net lister.

Tell them that if they were any good they could beat you no matter what you flew.

The only real problem I have with them is that the evade token from x7 can't be blocked. I think that's a bit ridiculous, and takes away a very real and necessary counter to flying against them for many lists. That said, the ship did need a fix, it got one, which is better than it not having happened in the first place.

The only real problem I have with them is that the evade token from x7 can't be blocked. I think that's a bit ridiculous, and takes away a very real and necessary counter to flying against them for many lists. That said, the ship did need a fix, it got one, which is better than it not having happened in the first place.

Agreed, I find it a bit cheaty when you discover that the X7 who was blocked after moving 1, or flew into an asteroid or whatever.. still gets a free evade.

They missed a trick and should had said that upon a successful maneuver the ship gets an X7. I suppose there is still time with a new FAQ.

The only real problem I have with them is that the evade token from x7 can't be blocked. I think that's a bit ridiculous, and takes away a very real and necessary counter to flying against them for many lists. That said, the ship did need a fix, it got one, which is better than it not having happened in the first place.

Agreed, I find it a bit cheaty when you discover that the X7 who was blocked after moving 1, or flew into an asteroid or whatever.. still gets a free evade.

They missed a trick and should had said that upon a successful maneuver the ship gets an X7. I suppose there is still time with a new FAQ.

It's no more cheaty than regening a shield from a blocked green move.

The only real problem I have with them is that the evade token from x7 can't be blocked. I think that's a bit ridiculous, and takes away a very real and necessary counter to flying against them for many lists. That said, the ship did need a fix, it got one, which is better than it not having happened in the first place.

Agreed, I find it a bit cheaty when you discover that the X7 who was blocked after moving 1, or flew into an asteroid or whatever.. still gets a free evade.

They missed a trick and should had said that upon a successful maneuver the ship gets an X7. I suppose there is still time with a new FAQ.

Sadly, no. FAQ is out and while they addressed U-Boats they left X7 alone.

The X7 is supposed to be a reward for moving fast, it's a hit and run ship with that modification. If that's the design for this then they shouldn't be getting a free evade if they ended up moving 1 because of a block.