So, i just played my first epic game with rebel transport...

And collision rules for them are bull! Seriously! Decimator for 60 pts? Just ram it with your 40pt transport - and it's gone. Why it's so stupidly overpowered? Getting some damage is nothing, you can destroy entire swarm with random epic ship, i don't think it's how it is suppossed to work - this is support intel ship, not some sort of kamikaze. Just a little rage, cause i probably will never get my friends to play epic again, everyone thinks it's horribly stupid.

That is how it works. Epic ship overlaps a small or Large based ship - goodbye small or large based ship.

Why did you get that close to the front of a slow moving huge ship?

Seriously? That, and the support are the only reason to take a transporter in epic. Your friends must not like it when you deploy in a different corner so you can't fly straight into them.

I believe that ramming was to be an accidental thing. But I've heard of a few games and at least one pod cast where ramming was the use and goal of the transport. Then that happens most have agreed that it just sucked and was no fun at all.

Once your front section becomes crippled you can even ram other huge ships with no harm or cost to your self. And in the right position you can ram almost every turn and not get shot because of the blue line dividing the two halves.

Full speed ramming without taking any damage and no ill effects doesn't seem to the be intent of the huge ships design.

I honestly hope they change this.

P.S. heychadwick, I think I spelled that wrong, suggested that the huge ship should continue to take critical damage. I would also say that any damage taken to a crippled section should be divided by 2 or 3 maybe, rounded down and applied to the next section.

[Edited for spell'in]

I tried to make an Epic build with the sole purpose of being able to ram stuff, but even with Rear Admiral Chiraneau giving a 1 forward as an action alongside Engine Boosters I didn't manage to hit anyone and just took out asteroids and debris. You may say it was my poor flying, but in my opinion the Epic ships are so slow and difficult to turn that it is generally easy to keep out of their flight path.

If it was your first game then I would just put it down to a learning point. Learn the hard way and you're less likely to do it again.

Once your front section becomes crippled you can even ram other huge ships with no harm or cost to your self. And in the right position you can ram almost every turn and not get shot because of the blue line dividing the two halves.

Full speed ramming without taking any damage and no ill effects doesn't seem to the be intent of the huge ships design.

I honestly hope they change this.

Yeah, this is the worst, in my opinion. If the front section is crippled, you can just ram someone all day long and suffer no ill effects. I think we will do a house rule that says if you do that, then the back section takes the critical hit.

J-bot (member of my podcast) thinks you should have some sort of damage on the crippled part pass down onto the non-crippled. I'm fine with the rules as it is...except for the ramming.

The large based ships hitting the epic does mean instant death for the large based ships. I can't recall....does it do 2 die damage? I'm thinking it does. I'm not sure how else you can handle it, though. Yes, the GR-75 isn't THAT much bigger than the Decimator model, but I think you should look at bases and not the models. Otherwise you get depressed.

EDIT: Oh, if you want to hear our episode on epic discussion, go here: http://shuttletydirium.podbean.com/e/episode-23-epic-discussion/

One of our guy's first games with Epic and he had 400 pts on his own. We were hoping someone else would show up, but.....

Collisions are the best part of Epic play.

What would you replace the ramming rules with? A ship in X-Wing occupies the space its base is in: no other based ship can enter that space until the initial ship moves out of it. Huge Ships destroy their targets on overlap because otherwise they could be blocked: you fly a TIE over and over into the front of a CR90 and it can't move.

That being said, the ramming rules are in a way much like the "hand your dial to the opponent on a red move" rules: they're a deterrent rather than a tactical tool. The area a Huge ship threatens is actually pretty small: the only area that's really in danger is directly in front of it. It's so easy not to fly a Decimator into that space that the only one to blame if it gets smashed against a CR90's front.

Ramming is only easy if you make it easy for the opponent. Picture the death zone in front of the enemy epic and stay out of it.

Once your front section becomes crippled you can even ram other huge ships with no harm or cost to your self. And in the right position you can ram almost every turn and not get shot because of the blue line dividing the two halves.

Full speed ramming without taking any damage and no ill effects doesn't seem to the be intent of the huge ships desi

If you can ram every turn then your opponent is either unfamiliar with Huge Ships or a fool. Huge ships destroy anything that obstructs their movement but their movement is very limited. Even against other huges a ram lock (where neither ship can maneuver out of the ram and they crit each other to oblivion) is incredibly difficult to pull off because all the other player has to do is swerve and you'll hit the side. Sure, you might hit once or twice before you end up behind them and useless but then congratulations: you've spent 30 or more points on a direct crit or two you could have got for 3 with an AHM or 5 with a Proton Bomb.

Don't try to fly down the throat of a corvette and you'll be fine. Mindlessly fly straight towards it and end up splattered on its windshield.

Yeah, this is the worst, in my opinion. If the front section is crippled, you can just ram someone all day long and suffer no ill effects.

Ever tried that? I have, and it's not as easy as you all seem to think it is.

A small or huge has the speed to simply avoid your threat zone, get around behind you and shoot at your crippled rear. A huge ship will just circle you.

Ramlocking a ship isn't something you can just do, it requires forethought, setup, coordination with the rest of your fleet and a lot of luck to pull off. Once the opponent has the hang of epic ships ramming becomes far less common: last Epic I played both players were trying to ram whenever they could and the only ship to get splattered was a TIE punisher that put itself in the Danger Zone by mistake.

Yes, the GR-75 isn't THAT much bigger than the Decimator model, but I think you should look at bases and not the models. Otherwise you get depressed.

The GR-75 is scaled down. It's actual size is about that of the CR90 model. The only Epic that's accurately scaled is the Gozanti.

Consider the scale of these ships... No, I'm not at all complaining about them crushing smaller ships, including that of the Decimator class ships. The model for the transport is NOT scaled the same as the smaller ships so the size difference is larger than it seems.

I'd also agree it is HIGHLY unlikely to ram something every turn unless some severely poor tactical decisions were made. I've seen a corvette take out 150 points of other ships in ramming... but it was somewhere in the ballpark of 80-90 points of that were his own forces... (and several TIE fighters I controlled that got way too close!)

I like the rules as they are. Having been smashed onto the hull of capital ships in both X-Wing and TIE FIghter PC sims, it feels about right.

I believe this is the correct size comparison.

I think the Ghost could probably do some hurt on the Gozanti if they rammed with that scale!

I think the Ghost could probably do some hurt on the Gozanti if they rammed with that scale!

the ghost is just a massive plot armoured brick though!

We used some epic ships in a kessel run tournament (another one coming up next week!!) and they didnt splat any ships, they nuked my ghost with ion torps though (being out front hurts when they target the closest ship to them!!)

also they jammed up and where at an angle that the raider and CR90 couldn't move and we couldnt leapfrog them!

i need to give epic a go but without the 3 hours required for it i cant really get away

And as always some people have models in the correct scale to each other, that transport is huge on the table.

Source for the pictures: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/109750-does-scale-matter/?p=1139155

I think the Ghost could probably do some hurt on the Gozanti if they rammed with that scale!

Gozanti/Ghost scaling is a bit of an oddball!

To Zura, you only get crushed like that once by epic ships. Next game everybody knows you need to respect the cruisers. It adds to that epic cinematic feeling of dodging between the big ships with fighters when you know that zigging when you should of zagged results in a bug splat on a windshield. There are guys that specifically try to ram with the big ships, but if the opponent is aware of the results it's not that easy to accomplish.

Love epic ships. Just replayed the Bait mission for HotAC with a new group. Stunned crowd as I put the transport on the table... and a Phantom jammed is hilariously easy to put down.

Well get out of the way next time. You think the Millenium falcon is going to survive ramming a capital ship?

I do remember one amazing epic game where a raider ran over it's own Decimator buddy trying to take out some B-wing's.

Advice #1: do not use a Decimator in epic play (unless its the very base generic). In epic, you are entering a world where single turbo lasers will tear it appart at range 5. The last time that I faced a decimator, my Raider did 10 damage (with multiple crits) in one salvo.

Advice #2: the weakest point of any huge ship are its sides since it cannot use a reinforce action on both sections. If fighting a huge ship and it deploys in a corner, consider deploying further away. It gives you time to put your entire army in position (if using a swarm, striking with every ship is key) and with each round, the huge ship will move away from the corner, making it easier to attack its flanks or the rear.

Advice #3: if flying the Empire, consider having a few tie academy pilots. You need generic pilots to act as cannon fodder. These guys are also increadibly annoying in epic play and amazing blockers.

Advice #4: if flying a swarm, you need a lot of ships (again, don't be afraid of generic pilots).

I think the Ghost could probably do some hurt on the Gozanti if they rammed with that scale!

the ghost is just a massive plot armoured brick though!

We used some epic ships in a kessel run tournament (another one coming up next week!!) and they didnt splat any ships, they nuked my ghost with ion torps though (being out front hurts when they target the closest ship to them!!)

also they jammed up and where at an angle that the raider and CR90 couldn't move and we couldnt leapfrog them!

i need to give epic a go but without the 3 hours required for it i cant really get away

That's cool that they used Ion Torpedoes! I've been saying how they are great for Epic as they do the damage and Ionize everything.

If you want to do more Epic, but don't want to spend the 3 hours, then I recommend the campaigns that come with the Epic ships. They are actually pretty cool and often done on a 3x3 table. My podcast is reviewing the CR-90 one now. We just did the first mission and actually did a whole dramatic reading of it. I didn't know they were going to edit it THAT much until I it was posted. It's really cool. It's at the 25 min mark if you want to jump to it.

Also, I think pre-planning helps with Epic. If you know your list and get your stuff out ahead of time, it helps with set up. So.....get your pilots and upgrade cards and tokens and put them in a ziplock bag. Do that for all your ships ahead of time and it helps. The more you play, the faster it gets. Build your lists with squads so that you can think of them as a unit. Easier to plan moving and such when you do it that way.

I've been reading through and nobody else has mentioned this yet, but it bears repeating:

Remember that Huge ships move AFTER all the small and large base ships have moved. So no matter what (unless you've been ionized) you have an opportunity to get out of its way. if you get run over by a Transport, well it's your own dang fault for getting too close to it. Just avoid the area directly in front of it (A Gozanti wth Chiraneau and Engine Boosters can move 6-straight in 1 turn, a little more than range 2) and immediately to its sides (watch out for their butts swinging around) and you'll be just fine.

I've played 3 or so of the scenarios that come with the epic ships and only lost a couple of small ships mostly due to being ionized and then run over. Movement wise, I think the most dangerous place is Range 1 behind the blue line. When they turn, that backside swings out pretty far.

They are slow and unwieldy and if you get rammed head-on somebody wasn't paying attention.

I think the Ghost could probably do some hurt on the Gozanti if they rammed with that scale!

the ghost is just a massive plot armoured brick though!

We used some epic ships in a kessel run tournament (another one coming up next week!!) and they didnt splat any ships, they nuked my ghost with ion torps though (being out front hurts when they target the closest ship to them!!)

also they jammed up and where at an angle that the raider and CR90 couldn't move and we couldnt leapfrog them!

i need to give epic a go but without the 3 hours required for it i cant really get away

That's cool that they used Ion Torpedoes! I've been saying how they are great for Epic as they do the damage and Ionize everything.

If you want to do more Epic, but don't want to spend the 3 hours, then I recommend the campaigns that come with the Epic ships. They are actually pretty cool and often done on a 3x3 table. My podcast is reviewing the CR-90 one now. We just did the first mission and actually did a whole dramatic reading of it. I didn't know they were going to edit it THAT much until I it was posted. It's really cool. It's at the 25 min mark if you want to jump to it.

Also, I think pre-planning helps with Epic. If you know your list and get your stuff out ahead of time, it helps with set up. So.....get your pilots and upgrade cards and tokens and put them in a ziplock bag. Do that for all your ships ahead of time and it helps. The more you play, the faster it gets. Build your lists with squads so that you can think of them as a unit. Easier to plan moving and such when you do it that way.

I managed to listen in last night (following the Epic rant of last week) and did enjoy it. my buddy has his own man cave/office so we could potentially leave an epic game set up if we cant finish it.

my boy loves my rebel transport so we have played some games using it a scenery and did a 100pt dog fight with one drifting across the board which was fun.

I've been reading through and nobody else has mentioned this yet, but it bears repeating:

Remember that Huge ships move AFTER all the small and large base ships have moved. So no matter what (unless you've been ionized) you have an opportunity to get out of its way. if you get run over by a Transport, well it's your own dang fault for getting too close to it. Just avoid the area directly in front of it (A Gozanti wth Chiraneau and Engine Boosters can move 6-straight in 1 turn, a little more than range 2) and immediately to its sides (watch out for their butts swinging around) and you'll be just fine.

Actually I do remember. But in my example I was talking about a GR-75 that got behind another Huge ship and kept ramming.

Can you imaging running a GR-75 full speed into an Imperial Raider and taking no additional damage on the GR-75 even from weapons fire?

I agree with Heychadwick, at least pass the critical to the next section for a possibility of damage.

I've played many Epic games with others familiar with the format, and ramming is surprisingly rare. I thought the rule was stupid and that it would happen all the time, then i started playing Epic and started to see just how rare it actually was (when both sides know the ramming rules and are actively mindful of it). This sounds like it was a case of someone not knowing how Epic overlaps work and therefore carelessly put a 60pt Decimator right in front of a Transport (and wasn't allowed to "un-do" it when they found out how ramming did work).

If you know how the ramming rules work, it's very easy to keep a decimator from getting smoohsed when you've got a turret and don't have to joust with an Epic ship (and probably Engine Upgrade, since it was 60 points).

i think the point of it was they didnt want any "pushing out of the way" mechanics and those massive ships are way too big to be slowed down by a little tie fighter. Though i dont think large ships should have been included in that.

Ghost SHOULD have been a huge ship. Its BARELY smaller than the gozanti. But its the Rebels baby so it has to be a large ship and good so people use it, which explains the plethora of "wtf does it have that for?" remarks. Still dont understand why that thing has an Evade action when its 0 agi and has no barrelroll, and unlike the Falcon its not a super maneuverable beast so i dont get the 1hards even if they are red.

That thing isnt just plot armor. That thing has plot fullbody platemail armor.

That being said i dont think its overpowered, just breaks a lot of commonalities we are used to with large ships and it throws me off.

would be so happy if the Gozanti suddenly got a "large base" expansion lol. Even if it got neutered of its huge ship perks entirely (no cargo, no crew, no coordinate/reinforce) i'd still bring it just so i could have it deploy TIE fighters so thematically more often.

Main thing i dont agree with on the huge ship collision rules is ramming with a dead section is 0 risk to you. Any unavoidable damage your destroyed section takes should be shifted to the other to prevent that freedom. Then again, ramming is about the only thing huge ships have going for them. They suck lol. But i still play with'm because BIG SHIPS (i love my big models)

I've been reading through and nobody else has mentioned this yet, but it bears repeating:

Remember that Huge ships move AFTER all the small and large base ships have moved. So no matter what (unless you've been ionized) you have an opportunity to get out of its way. if you get run over by a Transport, well it's your own dang fault for getting too close to it. Just avoid the area directly in front of it (A Gozanti wth Chiraneau and Engine Boosters can move 6-straight in 1 turn, a little more than range 2) and immediately to its sides (watch out for their butts swinging around) and you'll be just fine.

Actually I do remember. But in my example I was talking about a GR-75 that got behind another Huge ship and kept ramming.

Can you imaging running a GR-75 full speed into an Imperial Raider and taking no additional damage on the GR-75 even from weapons fire?

I agree with Heychadwick, at least pass the critical to the next section for a possibility of damage.

Hmm, I'm a bit skeptical as to your authority on the matter, since I'm confused, on so many levels:

(0) How did a GR75 get directly behind an opposing huge ship? Sounds like some bad decisions about positions were made by the opposing player to allow that to happen...

(1) What do you mean by no additional damage? The GR-75 will always take a crit face-up (it's only a single-section ship). Why should it take more?

(2) Why is weapons-fire relevant? Obviously, the dead rear of a Raider is its only blindspot, so if a GR75 tucks in there it's the fault of the Raider player. If no other Imperial ships are in a position to put fire on the GR75,then that just sounds like it's the Imperial player's positioning decisions that got them into that situation...

(3) The Raider moves second, so why wasn't it banking? One or two turns of banking would have presented shots on the GR75 with the aft-section broadsides... In that time the GR75 could have done, at most, two damage cards to the Raider (which the raider could have even repaired each turn if it was so inclined).

This sounds like a situation where an Imperial Raider and the rest of the Imperial fleet got entirely outflanked by a GR75, the equivalent of a Space Bus. That sounds like a problem with the Imperial player, not the ramming rules. Besides, in that time, the GR-75 was doing almost negligible damage to the Raider's aft section (one crit per turn). So how is this an issue with the ramming rules?

...

Actually I do remember. But in my example I was talking about a GR-75 that got behind another Huge ship and kept ramming.

Can you imaging running a GR-75 full speed into an Imperial Raider and taking no additional damage on the GR-75 even from weapons fire?

I agree with Heychadwick, at least pass the critical to the next section for a possibility of damage.

(1) What do you mean by no additional damage? The GR-75 will always take a crit face-up (it's only a single-section ship). Why should it take more?

This - so much this... If two big ships collide, EACH ship gets a face up card for the appropriate section. Hypothetically, if it's a front end collision this happens twice since first the transport bumps the Raider, then the Raider bumps the transport. So no, the transport should not be suffering no damage in return.

A corvette and raider are two card epics, so if the fore section is destroyed and it collides with something using it's nose as a battering ram... this is what Heychadwick was commenting about on his podcast. By the rules, no further damage to an already crippled section. I think this was meant as an abstraction to say it's already wrecked and non-functional... though perhaps in a scenario where a collision happens, maybe a crit should have been passed to the aft. That, if FFG views necessary, could get marked up in a fixed up rulebook such as the additional green dice at range 4/5 was when the Gozanti was released.