I seem to remember there being something in the old tournament rules document along the lines of players only being allowed to use their eyes to estimate positions and range...
hands on the table
Ah ha! My memory serves me well!
There was an old discussion about this I remembered commenting one:
Pre mesauring with Fingers?
From May 27 2015!
DanDoulogos ends up quoting this bit of rules, from the Planning Phase section of the Core Rules Book (from the original core set) :
The interesting part being the "[Players] must plan their maneuvers by estimating their ships’ movement in their heads".
Of course, people pointed out that, since it's in the Planning Phase section of the rules, it doesn't apply to the activation phase.
But Alex Davy seemed to think that the rule applies at large (emphasis mine):
Rules Question:
Are players, in tournament play, permitted to put their finger/hand down on the play mat to visualize the position of their ship after a boost, barrel roll, decloak, or maneuver? Example: If I'm flying a TIE Interceptor, can I put my finger down where I think a Barrel Roll will put me? Or does this fall under the "players may not pre-measure and may only use their eyes" rule?
Answer:
It does. Players should refrain from using their hands or fingers to make any measurements in strict tournament play.
Cheers,
Alex Davy
Creative Content Developer
Fantasy Flight Games
I could not find anything equivalent to the rules bit quoted above in the new Learn to Play, Rules Reference of FAQ.
However, I still think that the Rules as Intended are quite clear on the matter.
Ah ha! My memory serves me well!
There was an old discussion about this I remembered commenting one: Pre mesauring with Fingers? From May 27 2015!
DanDoulogos ends up quoting this bit of rules, from the Planning Phase section of the Core Rules Book (from the original core set) :
The interesting part being the "[Players] must plan their maneuvers by estimating their ships’ movement in their heads".
Of course, people pointed out that, since it's in the Planning Phase section of the rules, it doesn't apply to the activation phase.
But Alex Davy seemed to think that the rule applies at large (emphasis mine):
Rules Question:
Are players, in tournament play, permitted to put their finger/hand down on the play mat to visualize the position of their ship after a boost, barrel roll, decloak, or maneuver? Example: If I'm flying a TIE Interceptor, can I put my finger down where I think a Barrel Roll will put me? Or does this fall under the "players may not pre-measure and may only use their eyes" rule?
Answer:
It does. Players should refrain from using their hands or fingers to make any measurements in strict tournament play.
Cheers,
Alex Davy
Creative Content Developer
Fantasy Flight Games
I could not find anything equivalent to the rules bit quoted above in the new Learn to Play, Rules Reference of FAQ.
However, I still think that the Rules as Intended are quite clear on the matter.
That's always an interesting thing. Templates may not be used, that is pretty clear. The problem is what planning in their head really could/should mean. If it's all supposed to be done in your head I guess everyone should put on blindfolds as that keeps things in their head. If that's to much then why stop people from using their body as some people "think" using more than just their brain.
It seems to me that someone emailed Alex from FFG with this very question and he said that using anything including fingers to measure wasn't allowed.
Expect of course when you're supposed to measure, and then you use the proper tools.
I fixed that for you...
That's always an interesting thing. Templates may not be used, that is pretty clear.
The problem is what planning in their head really could/should mean. If it's all supposed to be done in your head I guess everyone should put on blindfolds as that keeps things in their head. If that's to much then why stop people from using their body as some people "think" using more than just their brain.
Plus, you misquoted the rules text. It doesn't say " planning in their head", it says " estimate their ships' movement in their head". If you think that means you can put a finger on the table... Well, I uh... Um. What?
Also, feel free to ignore the email from Alex Davy. That part wasn't important.
Edited by KlutzI fixed that for you...
Also, feel free to ignore the email from Alex Davy. That part wasn't important.
Emails are just email.
Easy to delete and treat like they never were. If it is supposed to be a rule then it should be laid out clear IN THE RULES.
I fixed that for you...
Also, feel free to ignore the email from Alex Davy. That part wasn't important.
Emails are just email.
Easy to delete and treat like they never were. If it is supposed to be a rule then it should be laid out clear IN THE RULES.
"Emails are just email."
God I hate that argument... FAQ rulings have been reversed in the past, so the FAQ is useless. And cards are sometimes errata'd, so card text is basically moot. Does anything even carry any weight?
But, ignoring that...
You're still arguing that the rules text isn't clear at all?
Players must plan their maneuvers by estimating their ships' movement in their heads .
Edited by Klutz
...
You're still arguing that the rules text isn't clear at all?
Players must plan their maneuvers by estimating their ships' movement in their heads .
Which mean no visual input would be allowed either.
...
You're still arguing that the rules text isn't clear at all?
Players must plan their maneuvers by estimating their ships' movement in their heads .
Which mean no visual input would be allowed either.
Your logic is seriously distorted.
How exactly does estimating a ships movement in your head mean you can't look at it's current position on the table?
That is it helps guessing and can be part of my thinking process. I do go through a number of variations so not to give final option.
The length of my arm or any other part of my body isn't being used.
Casually i would warn you not to do it as its a bad habbit to get into.
In a tournament i would warn you once, then if you argued at all i would get the TO over right away.
...
You're still arguing that the rules text isn't clear at all?
Players must plan their maneuvers by estimating their ships' movement in their heads .
Which mean no visual input would be allowed either.
This is taking it way beyond the extreme.
The ruling seems clear. Cybernetic measuring applications are 100% allowed, as long as they are installed in your head. Fingers are also allowed, as long as they are inside your head.
...
You're still arguing that the rules text isn't clear at all?
Players must plan their maneuvers by estimating their ships' movement in their heads .
Which mean no visual input would be allowed either.
where do you keep your eyes?
I always like my opponents to keep their hands on the table, that way I know they're not reaching for their blaster.......