Eh...

Fenn's "leaps and bounds" better offense is still dice depend (esp if it leaves him modless to return fire)

Which is the reason ive found fangs to be largely underwhelming. If youre a glass jaw in xwing, youre just going to shatter against guaranteed (or real **** lucky) mitigation

You do realize that the entire game is dice dependent, yes? I could roll 30 dice but it won't matter if they go blank.

the "entire game" is an exaggeration

soontir with thrusters + focus + evade and palp is guaranteed to generate 3 evade results at least, regardless of what he rolls

there are certain upgrades that exist that literally deal damage independent on any dice whatsoever

hell, simple evade tokens work independently of dice results, which is part of why the x7 is such a boss monster

shield regeneration and some very prominent stress mechanics (r3-a2 and Asajj, for example) are utterly dice independent

these things exist and they do not care about dice. But the "I could roll 30 dice but it won't matter if they all blank" is basically Rau's problem in a nutshell.

the fang does not benefit from dice independent tech, apart from the evade results generated by the hyper conditional title

it is a very good title, mind you, (1 point) but that's all the fang has going for it apart from the focus + thruster 1 evade result guarantee

Mindlink-Recon Manaroo could add 3 Focus token to his stack. Though more realistically it would be 2 Focus Token, which actually might be exactly what the Fangs need.

it is a very good title, mind you, (1 point) but that's all the fang has going for it apart from the focus + thruster 1 evade result guarantee

The real strength of the fang from my experience is not that it will be an unkillable dodgy ship like Soontir then pop like a soap bubble if countered. Instead it's a solid ship with good damage output (target lock is good) and only 1 weak zone (range 2 in arc). It's a ship that won't survive a million hits like Soontir but will punch really hard and when engaging properly should trade up and stem its own bleeding enough to be worth it. It also can mostly ignore weaker attacks (like jumpmaster primaries) forever without tokens unless it manages to sit in arc range 2.

Sure, but in my experience reliance on dice driven offense is simply weaker than guaranteed defenses unless youre rolling torpscout party bus (ie the absolute extreme, but also more than 4 hull to eat damage with) due to issues of reliably

For the simple reason that your offense AND defense can crap out

And their defense cant (but they can still get lucky)

Sure, but in my experience reliance on dice driven offense is simply weaker than guaranteed defenses unless youre rolling torpscout party bus (ie the absolute extreme, but also more than 4 hull to eat damage with) due to issues of reliably

For the simple reason that your offense AND defense can crap out

And their defense cant (but they can still get lucky)

Soontir against Old Teroch has a single guaranteed evade IF teroch manages to land in arc. ;-)

Though more importantly those fangs have a far superior dial to PTL-addicted Soontir.

I play nothing than interceptors, and I doubt that I will ever play something else and while Soontir never dies to his green dice, he plenty of times dies to his ******* PTL addiction. That is something which you can consider when flying him, but he becomes more demanding to fly than even Dash is, because Soontir either does his 2s or a straight, nothing else ever.

Fangs are a total different beast to that.

Sure, but in my experience reliance on dice driven offense is simply weaker than guaranteed defenses unless youre rolling torpscout party bus (ie the absolute extreme, but also more than 4 hull to eat damage with) due to issues of reliably

For the simple reason that your offense AND defense can crap out

And their defense cant (but they can still get lucky)

Soontir against Old Teroch has a single guaranteed evade IF teroch manages to land in arc. ;-)

Though more importantly those fangs have a far superior dial to PTL-addicted Soontir.

I play nothing than interceptors, and I doubt that I will ever play something else and while Soontir never dies to his green dice, he plenty of times dies to his ******* PTL addiction. That is something which you can consider when flying him, but he becomes more demanding to fly than even Dash is, because Soontir either does his 2s or a straight, nothing else ever.

Fangs are a total different beast to that.

soontir with thrusters + focus + evade and palp is guaranteed to generate 3 evade results at least, regardless of what he rolls

IF you're out of arc or at range 3. And plenty of things can either fly at higher ps, ps9 with an initiative bid to make soontir move first, or block him to deny reposition (AND the evade token). It's not like soontir is a magical super-pilot who literally CAN'T be shot in arc at range 1-2.

there are certain upgrades that exist that literally deal damage independent on any dice whatsoever

hell, simple evade tokens work independently of dice results, which is part of why the x7 is such a boss monster

shield regeneration and some very prominent stress mechanics (r3-a2 and Asajj, for example) are utterly dice independent

these things exist and they do not care about dice. But the "I could roll 30 dice but it won't matter if they all blank" is basically Rau's problem in a nutshell.

Except Rau can actually TL, so he has pretty reliable dice. Sure, it's still *possible* to blank out, but way more reliable than throwing 3 red dice with only a focus IF you're willing to spend it and not have it for defense like soontir.

It's rather scary to fling this ship with just Fearlessness, Autothrusters and the title at opponents with no tokens. But when the red die are hot and the green die provide some evades, it's awesome to see it strip away shields off big ships.

taking down anjii by Donavan Vicha, on Flickr

Note that Asajj's mobile arc is facing Fenn, so it's the works. I also set this up sending Fenn along the side of the map and AG-88B and Palob down the middle (they're mindlinked).

soontir with thrusters + focus + evade and palp is guaranteed to generate 3 evade results at least, regardless of what he rolls

IF you're out of arc or at range 3. And plenty of things can either fly at higher ps, ps9 with an initiative bid to make soontir move first, or block him to deny reposition (AND the evade token). It's not like soontir is a magical super-pilot who literally CAN'T be shot in arc at range 1-2.

I am not arguing that soontir is a magical super-pilot

I am merely pointing out that he has this capability to guarantee 3 damage cancel (or 2 if just evade + palp)

because what we have to remember is that we're not talking about a single game experience or that every game will play out in the same way. Sometimes yes, Rau will get lucky and blow soontir out of the sky

but when you compare guaranteed defenses to dice-driven offenses over a larger sample of games, the guaranteed defenses are going to come out ahead far more reliably over a greater number of those experiences (because they're guaranteed)

the Fang, which suffers from the exact same weaknesses as the interceptor (abated only by the title, because otherwise a block or stress will give you a ****** over Rau) and which does not share the same damage cancellation capability, does not compare favorably just because Rau gets extra dice at range 1

overall, guaranteed defenses (including the very generous allocation of shields + hull to jm5ks and yv-666s) are simply better bets than hoping to get lucky or to not get unlucky. This has also been the theme of competitive lists ever since Fat Han became a thing

which, again, is not to say you'll never win a game or that every game plays out the same way, just that the dice-driven capabilities of the Fang are not as reliable as guaranteed defenses and so, purely from a mechanics standpoint, you're at a disadvantage

ie. you have to compensate with player skill, ideally. This is, of course, easier said than done esp over multiple rounds

which is why I find Fangs are incredibly overrated. They're flashy, sure, but any player good enough to overcome their defensive weaknesses is probably good enough to be scary with any squad that possesses similar maneuverability, which isn't very difficult for the empire's generous stable of aces to provide

not to say they're bad, of course; they're certainly no T-65s (though Fangs are marketed as jousters that in reality can't really joust, Fangs can do other things) and they're not even in need of a fix, apart from arguably the poor generics. They're just not amazing, i.e they're not palp aces or x7 defenders

which is kinda the theme for wave 9, overall, and it's about the exact reason why very few people seem to like the SF (ie they're not palp aces or x7 defenders)

Soontir (SD, AC) vs Fearlessness Fenn Rau with Palp (defensive) and Manaroo (Focus + TL)

R1 Joust

Soontir expected damage ~ 0.2 to ~0.3

Fen Rau expected damage ~0.54

R2 Joust

Soontir expected damage 0.64

Fen Rau expected damage 0.02

R3 joust

Soontir expected damage 0.18

Fen Rau expected damage 0

Blocks and R2 shots:

Soontir expected damage 0.64

Fen Rau expected damage 0.80

Conclusion, the guy who can give away init wins most likely and it comes down to blocking and flying mostly. Blocking and Flying is the stronger suite of the Fang Fighter.

blocking is actually the stronger suite of whoever has initiative, though blocking has no real utility 1v1 unless you're rolling with illicit tech or setting up TLs for a future turn

flying is the stronger suite of the player, since the fang and interceptor dials are almost identical and there's therefore no reason to just award it the title of stronger blocker/flyer

if we're talking squad v squad, then it's completely up to the players and what else they bring

Fenn Rau wingmans can be combined to give him focus and evade. I don't think it would be top tier list, but it's possible and fun to play I am sure.

Back on topic: Fang Fighters are competitive and fun to play. They have their weaknesses but who doesn't? I bet they'll strongly influence the meta not by being overpowered but by being fun thus Scum players will leave torp scouts at home more often

They are having a tough time in our local meta due to the popularity of Connor Net and Sabine Wren.

blocking is actually the stronger suite of whoever has initiative, though blocking has no real utility 1v1 unless you're rolling with illicit tech or setting up TLs for a future turn

flying is the stronger suite of the player, since the fang and interceptor dials are almost identical and there's therefore no reason to just award it the title of stronger blocker/flyer

if we're talking squad v squad, then it's completely up to the players and what else they bring

Soontir is a PTL and stress junkie. Fen Rau is valid even without PTL. Which means as well, even when you bring PTL, you rely less on it. You can get your tokens from Manaroo and this opens up your dial much more.

And for the up to the player part. Manaroo and Palpatine are set in this example, which is another thing the scum aces have over the imperial aces. A ship which is actually agile and a good blocker, but I did not go there in my previous post, because I was just thinking about the ability to run Fen Rau without getting stress.

I'm with Fickle.

But I love the Fangs so far. I tried PtL on Fenn Rau, didn't care for it that much. Manaroo is just as good, Fenn wants/needs a focus or two anyway Manaroo can give it to him and most of the time you only need one action to get to range 1. I give Manaroo K4 so she can pass him Focus and TL for heavy duty dice mods.

They do blow up fast sometimes, but going from three hull to four hull is a pretty big jump, especially when you have three agility. I used to run VI Carnor Jax with autothrusters and hull upgrade so picking up the Fangs hasn't been overly difficult for me since they have similar dials and survivability.

I'm with Fickle.

But I love the Fangs so far. I tried PtL on Fenn Rau, didn't care for it that much. Manaroo is just as good, Fenn wants/needs a focus or two anyway Manaroo can give it to him and most of the time you only need one action to get to range 1. I give Manaroo K4 so she can pass him Focus and TL for heavy duty dice mods.

They do blow up fast sometimes, but going from three hull to four hull is a pretty big jump, especially when you have three agility. I used to run VI Carnor Jax with autothrusters and hull upgrade so picking up the Fangs hasn't been overly difficult for me since they have similar dials and survivability.

Manaroo isn't "just as good" as PTL, because she doesn't let him double reposition to avoid getting shot at in the first place. I've been running PTL fenn WITH manaroo, so he can either double reposition and still get 2 focus tokens, or single reposition into range 1 and TL, then get focus from her to nuke the target, or if he doesn't need to reposition, just TL and take free focuses and not have to stress yourself.

I have only played them a couple of times both times I flew Fen. And I made a interesting realization. I didn't give him fearless either time. Once I gave him VI and the other time I gave him VI.

But the big surprise is that I don't fly him as a jouster, not the way I play with my TIE swarm, x7 Defenders or Poe Dameron. If fly like a arc-dodger with one exception. Since he doesn't have PtL he can't boost and barrel-roll, but he can do one or the other. And I spent a lot of the game getting out of my opponents' arcs, I only swing into the range 1 joust when it is just right. Since He relies on relative position just the way a TIE Interceptor does I really want him to have a 9 PS and to go after my opponent then use my boost of barrel roll to get into the just the right position. Where those positions are tend to be a little different from the standard arc dodger, but it is still a matter of getting right where you want to be.

I also give him autothrusters. Fen can't turtle like Soontir, but if I find myself in range three and I can't get out of it (sure not boosting into range 2) I can still focus and now I get 4 agility with a focus and a free blank to evade result.

He is so much fun to fly. I don't think he is quite as good as Soontir with Palp backing him up. But Manaru is pretty good back up.

I will say that when Fenn swoops in for the kill he is much more effective at it than Soontir. 5 dice shooting first (remember I get VI or adaptability) with a TL of focus (maybe both) is pretty awsome, even if you don't have fearless. I do give him the title so he is pretty good at surviving counter fire if he doesn't finish off his prey.

Im so glad that we do have BMST's and Feedback arrays against all stress junkies and guaranteed evaders!

Sure, but in my experience reliance on dice driven offense is simply weaker than guaranteed defenses unless youre rolling torpscout party bus (ie the absolute extreme, but also more than 4 hull to eat damage with) due to issues of reliably

For the simple reason that your offense AND defense can crap out

And their defense cant (but they can still get lucky)

I'm a big fan of the Protectorate fighter, and as I often do I've deliberately avoided the more popular named pilots and stuck to the generics - anyone calling them poor or 'DOA' (my new most hated phrase) hasn't tried them sufficiently.

I've been flying two of the PS5's and Ventress, all with Mindlink - this compensates perfectly for the lack of PTL action economy and frees up the superb dial of the ship. And if they're being shot at to any serious degree, Ventress is being left to sow discord freely.

These things aren't Interceptors, and more thought than just slapping PTL on them and comparing them to Soontir Fel is needed.

I'm a big fan of the Protectorate fighter, and as I often do I've deliberately avoided the more popular named pilots and stuck to the generics - anyone calling them poor or 'DOA' (my new most hated phrase) hasn't tried them sufficiently.

I've been flying two of the PS5's and Ventress, all with Mindlink - this compensates perfectly for the lack of PTL action economy and frees up the superb dial of the ship. And if they're being shot at to any serious degree, Ventress is being left to sow discord freely.

These things aren't Interceptors, and more thought than just slapping PTL on them and comparing them to Soontir Fel is needed.

I was looking for a list that used Fang Fighters with the ShadowCaster. The only bad thing is I only have 1 Fang Fighter. I might be able to throw in a Kihraxz Fighter or TLT Y-wing instead. What was your list, if you don't mind my asking?

Man, I can't wait for game night!

I'm a big fan of the Protectorate fighter, and as I often do I've deliberately avoided the more popular named pilots and stuck to the generics - anyone calling them poor or 'DOA' (my new most hated phrase) hasn't tried them sufficiently.

I've been flying two of the PS5's and Ventress, all with Mindlink - this compensates perfectly for the lack of PTL action economy and frees up the superb dial of the ship. And if they're being shot at to any serious degree, Ventress is being left to sow discord freely.

These things aren't Interceptors, and more thought than just slapping PTL on them and comparing them to Soontir Fel is needed.

Im bit bummed because i wanted like four fangs but my local store had only one left, but apparently they might get more this week so at least i can buy one more to try with Ventress..

I was looking for a list that used Fang Fighters with the ShadowCaster. The only bad thing is I only have 1 Fang Fighter. I might be able to throw in a Kihraxz Fighter or TLT Y-wing instead. What was your list, if you don't mind my asking?

Man, I can't wait for game night!

Need evades?

Manaroo + IG88-D + engine upgrade
IG-88C + Title
Fen Rau

96 points - leaving 4 points for upgradiness.... hmmm

I was looking for a list that used Fang Fighters with the ShadowCaster. The only bad thing is I only have 1 Fang Fighter.

I've been playing this to great success:

Fenn Rau - PTL, thrusters, title, flechette torpedos

Asajj Ventress - PTL, engine, dengar, slicer tools, cargo chute

Binyare Pirate - slicer tools

Total: 98 points

Wicked fun and I've gone 6-1 recently with the loss being winnable. There's a lot of value and either of your expensive ships can finish a game.

How about Scum Aces?

Fenn (Fearlessness, CDP, AT)

Talonbane (Fearlessness, VT, Glitterstim, Homing Missiles)

Old Teroch (VI, CDP, AT)

https://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Scum%20and%20Villainy&d=v4!s!135:188,17,128:-1:26:;212:188,-1:43:15:;213:27,-1:43:15:&sn=Scum%20Aces

How are Fang Fighters?

A pain to get the wings to rotate... and painting them I'm finding annoying, They just seem to have a lot less detail than the non-Rebels ships.