I agree on no talents during character creation because of the steps of character creation as pointed out above. When questions come to the board, the only set of common ground all community members have is what the text of the book is. Obviously anyone can play the game however they want, but if someone is looking for a specific answer then the rulebook is where to find it. In other words, asking "is it allowed?" is different than, "would it upset the game?" In this case, the former answer is "no" and the latter answer is "probably not."

Do I think it will break the game? Probably not. But a strict reading of the rules as written, it's pretty clear the breakdown: Obligation (or whatever) -> Species -> Career -> Equipment. There's not much room for interpretation, and doing otherwise is a house rule.

I walked into 7/11 I bought an klondike bar I paid for it. in alternate reality world 2 I walked into a 7/11 they didn't have a klondike bar I went to CVS and they had a Klondike bar. And no one cared.

Honestly if someone wanted to use the Talent, my answer would be that's fine, but we are going to use the rules. We will roll availability and we will roll the contested check, the results of which might mean you don't find the item, or you bolo the merchant check so bad even price reduced it might end up costing more than it would have at original base cost. That's the challenge/risk/reward that is supposed to be involved in using Talents.

Cyberneticist doesn't require a check it simply states the item costs you %50 of the normal cost.

You only use negotiation when you haggle. You can always purchase for the listed price without rolling. (aside from gm fiat) (I think this is something I left out of my previous post)

Now master merchant does require a check and therefore haggling but any player who starts with master merchant is already so gimped as to not really be part of the discussion.

Is cyberneticist broken as there is no chace it fails maybe but in rules as written world the guy says 10,000 you get it for 5000 everytime.

This is what I meant by no risk in the raw.

Players should eventually be able to buy items at cost in their background.

If you don't want players to use talents, craft things, install/upgrade mods, or have riggers work on their ships before game start then don't but there is absolutely nothing in the rules that speaks to this either way.

But telling a player its against Raw when there is no rule specifying this what I take issue with.

The guide they give you to make a character in no way mentions that you can or cannot do things during character gen. Find me one line that actually speaks to this point and I'll let it go, or just admit that its just your interpretation.

Cyberneticist doesn't require a check it simply states the item costs you %50 of the normal cost.

Actually what Cyberneticist says is that cybernetics and materials used to craft them cost 50% less. It says nothing of "normal cost" so Negotiation still applies and you are incorrect sir.

In addition the book(s) in the GM section specifically speak to the notion that PCs and GMs alike should avoid exploiting loopholes and rules lawyering.

Using a Talent that provides a tangible mechanical benefit during CHARGEN, which is ordinarily mechanically balanced during gameplay by prices not necessarily being a fixed point, and then during CHARGEN not using that balancing mechanic, is in fact a text book example of using a loophole.

Regarding normal cost. the rulebook states under negotiation skill : "Any time a character wishes to purchase goods or services, he must either pay the seller's asking price or utilize the Negotiation skill.".

So unless you really rate your negotiation skills, don't haggle !

Under rarity, finding an item on a world requires a Negotiation check, but GM can allow the character to use an appropriate Knowledge skill check instead.

(My take on that - if you have a player who wants to be the Face and get cheap stuff, let them shine, otherwise just use the base costs and move on as the players weren't interested).

Quoting directly from the book "In addition, Cybernetics and any materials used to craft cybernetics cost the character 50% less"

Quoting directly from the book "A player may either pay the asking price or use negotiation"

Contrast with Master Merchant "Before making a check when buying or selling items...."

Cybernetics has no restriction or check master merchant requires one.

As I said you can use GM Fiat and say the merchant wants 10x the price listed in the book, but otherwise the asking price is the list price in the book.

If cybernetics required a check I would say it HAD to be used with negotiation, but it is pretty clear by RAW it doesn't.

Therefore there is no check no opposed roll no haggling just finding the item which will happen in time.

Saying that talents don't apply during CHARGEN!1! does not make you right if you're not being able to support said statement.

If I disagree with your interpretation, that doesn't make me a rules lawyer. We're not sitting at the same gaming table.

For the life of me I cannot imagine why they would give the Cyber Tech a 5XP talent that affects equipment prices if they didn't want it to apply to CHARGEN!1!

Do I think it will break the game? Probably not. But a strict reading of the rules as written, it's pretty clear the breakdown: Obligation (or whatever) -> Species -> Career -> Equipment. There's not much room for interpretation, and doing otherwise is a house rule.

You conveniently left out the step where you Invest Experience Points (6). Which, by the way, happens after career and before equipment.

As you said, there is not much room for interpretation, you have talents at the time you buy equipment. Ruling that they don't apply seems to be the house rule to me.

Good thing I own Force and Destiny, it would have never occured to me that I need to check the Mentor rules for my Edge of the Empire question. But hey, apparently the Mentor is in Step 10, after you purchase equipment. That might be the reason that its discount doesn't apply, no? But hey, let's read it anyway in case it really has this important clarification that no discounts apply during character creation?

*reads p. 109 from start to finish*

"When a player character purchases the basic version of a Force powers, he may decrease the cost of the basic power by 5 XP. This discount does not apply when purchasing upgrades to Force powers. This discount only applies after the character has spent their initial XP during character creation."

Look. I understand you don't like combos. You call them loopholes and you think that they shouldn't exist. That's fine. But let's not pretend that you don't bend the rules according to your predjudication here.

Good thing I own Force and Destiny, it would have never occured to me that I need to check the Mentor rules for my Edge of the Empire question. But hey, apparently the Mentor is in Step 10, after you purchase equipment. That might be the reason that its discount doesn't apply, no? But hey, let's read it anyway in case it really has this important clarification that no discounts apply during character creation?

*reads p. 109 from start to finish*

"When a player character purchases the basic version of a Force powers, he may decrease the cost of the basic power by 5 XP. This discount does not apply when purchasing upgrades to Force powers. This discount only applies after the character has spent their initial XP during character creation."

Look. I understand you don't like combos. You call them loopholes and you think that they shouldn't exist. That's fine. But let's not pretend that you don't bend the rules according to your predjudication here.

Precedence. I look at the rules provided to cover for situations that may be sketchy or grey. Now, if you want to start messing with the rules in your way/game, all the power to you. But understand that the rules are what binds everyone to the same expectation. On these boards, the rules presented will be what is used.

I stated that the Mentor showed the precedence for "No Discounts during Creation". it also makes sense and keeps confusion down. I am going completely from memory, but I'm certain that this has been covered officially by FFG and that they used the Mentor as their basis. I could be wrong. Since you are asking the question, I leave you to research it.

Character Creation is malleable. You can either go strict by the Steps (in which case Species before Equipment meaning Ganks get their Cybernetics at the Species step) or you can play loose and free, beholden only the the rules the GM creates (which can run parallel or perpendicular to the rules).

The guide they give you to make a character in no way mentions that you can or cannot do things during character gen. Find me one line that actually speaks to this point and I'll let it go, or just admit that its just your interpretation.

If the book called out everything you CANT do during character creation, the core rules would be thousands of pages long. The book also doesn't say "Don't cover yourself with peanut butter" at species selection or "Don't set your house on fire" during career selection.

Going back and reading the section again to make sure I'm not talking out my ass, it says "Do this one thing, and then you may do this other optional thing if you so choose", and that is it . Anything else is a house rule. It's pretty goddamned clear.

As you said, there is not much room for interpretation, you have talents at the time you buy equipment.

Kudos for going back and rereading!

I reread the Gank species description and concede that it's ambiguous and in need of clarification.

But after double checking several times, I'm more convinced than ever that talents do apply at character creation. That's not a loophole, that's simply how the rules are written.

If you chose equipment before spending xp, sure. If there was a rule that you don't apply talents, sure. But the way I see it they very deliberately chose the order so you could influence starting equipment prices by choosing a particular career that has talents like Cybertechnologist.

edit

I'm done, do as you will.

But after double checking several times, I'm more convinced than ever that talents do apply at character creation. That's not a loophole, that's simply how the rules are written.

It would depend on the talent. If someone was starting a Entrepreneur and really, really wanted to blow 75 starting points on getting to Master Merchant for their 25% off for gear, then have at it. And if there was a cyberneticist talent that did the same thing, giving a discount on purchases - if they can get to the talent in the tree and are willing to scuttle their starting attributes to get there, fine.

However in this particular instance, the question as asked, the Gank special ability doesn't apply..

***EDIT*** Actually, thinking about it - Master Merchant wouldn't work either. It requires two strain to use the talent and you cant spend strain during character creation.

I think what everyone missed is that it IS OP to allow this to happen during character creation. A 5xp talent to allow a cybernetic that had a similar effect as dedication (characteristic enhanceing arms/leg/ brain implant) is not in the spirit of the game.

Yah I don't even think of it in terms of that. The Talent clearly applies to purchases, but game play transactions aren't happening at CHARGEN, game play isn't happening at CHARGEN. You don't have any of the rules regarding financial transactions applying at CHARGEN, so cherry picking this one to gain such a big advantage while simultaneously having zero chance of failure in that transaction is obviously loophole exploitation.

Why would anyone playing a Gank ever pick any other spec to start out with if you're allowed to get such a huge leg up on everyone else?

Because its not a huge leg up on everyone else take the time to read my post on the math and stat balance and you will see that even with this trick it only brings ganks up to the specialist template of 432222 for 15 skill points. My guess is most ganks wouldn't take cyberneticist though and would actually choose to have 2 skills at rank 3 at the start with a 3 stat for 3 yellow dice (not a bad pool at game start)

2p51 what would you say to a modder character who wanted the players starting ship to be his signature vehicle if he stupidly spent all of his points to get custom loadout would you deny the starting ship the 2 extra hard points? Would you deny him the benefit of gearhead when he mods his starting stuff at the begining of the game?

2p51 what would you say to a modder character who wanted the players starting ship to be his signature vehicle if he stupidly spent all of his points to get custom loadout would you deny the starting ship the 2 extra hard points? Would you deny him the benefit of gearhead when he mods his starting stuff at the begining of the game?

If I was doing a Knight-level game, then I might allow this kind of thing, but it would depend on the game, the player, and the character concept. I would be willing to be convinced, but they’d have to work at it.

Otherwise, no — that’s the sort of thing that the PCs should build up to during regular play, not something they should start the game with.

I'm pretty much done with this. If people can't see that using a Talent at CHARGEN that is for adjusting a transaction, which don't occur until game play, and are ok with it, when the book specifically states game play commences after CHARGEN, then people are just gonna do what they wanna do. If people can't see how allowing one race that takes one spec and then has access to up to 17,000 cr ,with this 'interperetation', in free cybernetics with no down side, rarity rolls, installation issues, at the start of game play, all for 5 lousy xp, and it isn't OP or unfair, then they just don't see it as OP, and again, they're just gonna do what they wanna do.

I'm pretty much done with this. If people can't see that using a Talent at CHARGEN that is for adjusting a transaction, which don't occur until game play, and are ok with it, when the book specifically states game play commences after CHARGEN, then people are just gonna do what they wanna do. If people can't see how allowing one race that takes one spec and then has access to up to 17,000 cr ,with this 'interperetation', in free cybernetics with no down side, rarity rolls, installation issues, at the start of game play, all for 5 lousy xp, and it isn't OP or unfair, then they just don't see it as OP, and again, they're just gonna do what they wanna do.

I just want to quote this because it hits the nail on the head.......with a jackhammer....

Okay lets pretend the charcter puts nearly all his starting money into cybernetics

With 10,000 he can get +1 int +1 agi or +1 brawn by getting a brain implant or a new hand.

He is short of also taking implant armor as well by 500.

So he takes a biofeedback regulator (these are hard to get later) and +1 skill implants for a total of 6000

This leaves him with 500 actual credits to buy a weapon and some clothing and a stat spread base of

3 3 3 2 2 2 and taking into account the implant either 3 3 3 3 2 2 or more likely 4 (probably int) 3 3 2 2 2

He will get a +1 bonus to any skills (probably allowing cybernetics 3 at start) as well as 1 rank of vigilance from race

He'll most likely end up with an implant cap of 7 (with 3 slots used)

So with cool cybernetics and everything you do get to start with int 4 cybernetics 3 and are very good at one thing.

Shrug anyone can make a one trick pony...

Compare this to a standard human

who will end up with 3 3 3 3 2 2

get 2 ranks of skills

but have a measly implant cap of 2 or 3

But for the human he will still be able to get the stat boosts later and have a higher total stat when he does.

PS you can tell from the gank stat spread of 2 2 2 2 2 1 that they intend for the gank to be able to get cybernetics increasing his atibutes.

Please tell me what I am missing how would you make the character OP with 17000 credits in implants?