I have this weird character concept of a Gank peddling state of the art, only slightly used cyberware.

I have a couple of rules questions I would like to have some input on. Official rules clarification would be great, but I doubt the devs have time for something of that level of obscurity. It's mainly about how talents affecting prices interact.

1. Cyberneticist. Could I buy my starting cyberware at the discount granted by Cyberneticist? Does this include the bonus in cyberware granted by the Gank species? Does the 50% discount apply to the base price (like other discount talents, such as Master Merchant, do?)
2. Master Merchant. Could I buy starting cyberware at the discount granted by Master Merchant? Does this include the bonus in cyberware granted by the Gank species?
3. Selling your used cyberware. Let's say you make better parts and you want to sell your used, old ones. Do you sell them like any regular good - at a price that is their base price modified by successes and talents - or do you apply a negative modifier for the parts being used?

Thank you so much!

1. No, you select your species and make selections for it prior to selecting your career, and you select your career before you spend XP.

2. It applies to whatever the cost is, which I suppose could vary depending on roll results and your GMs decision.

3. No, you don't have the Talent when you have to make your species selections. Species decisions occur before the career/spec selection and before xp expenditure in the CHARGEN process.

4. GMs call.

Well, the species selection certainly happens before, but choosing gear happens after investing XP. The way I saw it was that selecting Gank as a species in step 3 gave you a budget for step 9.

It tells you to select 5000 worth of cybernetics, it doesn't tell you that you have 5000 credits. It represents things that your character had installed in their life leading up to you breathing life into them as a PC. Ultimately I think it's probably whatever your GM is comfortable with, that's really who you need to have the conversation with.

It tells you to select 5000 worth of cybernetics, it doesn't tell you that you have 5000 credits. It represents things that your character had installed in their life leading up to you breathing life into them as a PC. Ultimately I think it's probably whatever your GM is comfortable with, that's really who you need to have the conversation with.

It allows one to spend bonus credits (gained from increasing Obligation, reducing Duty, or through the Morality options) on the implants in addition to the 5000 credits base. That seems to imply that your reasoning is flawed.

It tells you to select 5000 worth of cybernetics, it doesn't tell you that you have 5000 credits. It represents things that your character had installed in their life leading up to you breathing life into them as a PC. Ultimately I think it's probably whatever your GM is comfortable with, that's really who you need to have the conversation with.

It allows one to spend bonus credits (gained from increasing Obligation, reducing Duty, or through the Morality options) on the implants in addition to the 5000 credits base. That seems to imply that your reasoning is flawed.

It's not. It says you can select two cybernetics with a combined value of 5000, and you can increase that value cap if you're willing to spend your starting credits.

I don't see why you emphasised the words 'combined value', but I re-checked the wording of the ability. As far as it goes, there is no mention at which stage or stages one can choose the implants. I see where 2P51 is coming from, and I also am aware that it would be fairly strong to have the discount at level one, nothing prevents the GM from ruling one way or another.

It really wasn't an issue until they introduced Cyberneticist available early on in a tree, as Master Merchant could probably be reached at CHARGEN, but that would be a really F-ing stupid way to build a PC. Now however it's an issue, hence the OP needs to talk to their GM, not us.

It really wasn't an issue until they introduced Cyberneticist available early on in a tree, as Master Merchant could probably be reached at CHARGEN, but that would be a really F-ing stupid way to build a PC. Now however it's an issue, hence the OP needs to talk to their GM, not us.

There is an issue with a discount on cyberware? (or the one you can get via Master Merchant?)

I thought they did exactly what they were supposed to.

Maybe you and me just think differently about the "worst-case scenario": all discounts stack, allowing the Gank Entrepreneur to buy one or two pieces of cyberware for a total of 12500 credits.

( On a personal notes: I sometimes build characters even though I don't have a GM. Sorry, I don't have a different place to go to with my question, but thanks for the suggestion.)

I believe the official reasons why you can't do is because, technically, choosing a species is step 3 in the character creation process, followed by step 4, choosing a career, then step 5, choosing a specialization, then step 6, investing experience points. Since the two cybernetics are a unique part of the Gank species, you would choose your two cybernetics at step 3.

I wish I can find the thread that summarized the questions when the Order 66 podcast went over Special Modifications, but that was a question asked and the above is the answer, if I recall correctly.

Pesonally, I would say you get the base 5K plus what ever other monies you want to throw into it from your starting 500-1750 (assuming normal starting). I wouldn't let any character with Master Merchant use that to buy new gear pregame.

For the Gank, the ability to start with cybernetics is a racial trait and meant to be on par with a free level in 1 skill or gain a boost die/ ignore a setback die talents that most of the races have. It is not meant to be let's make Locutus of Borg as a starting character.

Also, in a normal game, the characters are supposed to be somewhat down and out as their impetus for adventuring. If you allow a character with Master Merchant (If they manage to take it), or similar talents to use it pre-game, then why would the be adventuring, they already have a stable business? Also, the main cost to the talent (spending 2 strain) is a non-cost if done during character generation, as I would assume that you want the shiny new cyberware installed already and not have to spend the better part of the first session trying to find a saw bones to install it in you, and then rush off to "Save the Galaxy".

In, my opinion, it also robs you and your character at several story arcs that could develop the character. For example, a Heavy may want to have a VX Sidewinder Repeating Blaster. Which is a reasonable goal, but if you beg the GM to give it to you out of the gate and they acquiesce to you, where does the character go from there? Yeah they get to have fun laying waste for the first couple (or many) sessions, but are the other PCs going to be able to contribute much to the combats? What is that PC going to aspire to have? It would be a bit like having a level 1 character start out with a +5 Holy Avenger.

Remember, that the reason in any RPG to give the PCs limited resources at the start, is to give them a reason to adventure. If you can start with anything and everything, that you want, then why take up the adventurer's mantle at all.

It really wasn't an issue until they introduced Cyberneticist available early on in a tree, as Master Merchant could probably be reached at CHARGEN, but that would be a really F-ing stupid way to build a PC. Now however it's an issue, hence the OP needs to talk to their GM, not us.

There is an issue with a discount on cyberware? (or the one you can get via Master Merchant?)

I thought they did exactly what they were supposed to.

Maybe you and me just think differently about the "worst-case scenario": all discounts stack, allowing the Gank Entrepreneur to buy one or two pieces of cyberware for a total of 12500 credits.

( On a personal notes: I sometimes build characters even though I don't have a GM. Sorry, I don't have a different place to go to with my question, but thanks for the suggestion.)

I'm talking about at CHARGEN (Character Generation), not as a PC develops.

I wouldn't have a problem with a starting character using either talent at the start of the game. Long term not going all out on stats is its own penalty. I think there is nothing in the book for or against this concept so it would be up to the GM. Quoting the order you pick things in character gen seems incredibly irrelvant to the discussion.

In a narritive game it certainly makes sense that a gank dedicated to cybertech may have more of it then one dedicated to say dancing nor is it imbalanced being that you are giving up starting xp and lowering your total stat points for the joy of some more tech.

If the steps aren't relevant to the devs intentions why did they make them and number them?

For the same reason they put the force template in the force section instead of the character creation section or the same reason they copied and pasted 40% of the core rule books from EOTE. Eg. For having reasons having nothing to do with gameplay.

The game is a narriative game. Most players select species late in their character write ups and this isn't wrong. In fact most of my players start off with obligation and work the character concept around that.

If something makes narrative sense and doesn't break the game I tend to allow it, but it certainly is open to GM interpretation.

If a character decided to go with 12 stat points and master merchant instead of 16 stat points they are gimping themselves in the long run.

16 stat points creates a balanced character 333322 15 creates a 432222 specialist when you go below 15 you really suffer and even getting a stat point back in cybernetics means that your potential is lower then another character.

Ganks cap out at 3 3 3 3 2 1 for 15 and thats spending all their xp If they are going to take even 5 xp for talents they are looking at a very unappealing 3 3 3 2 2 2.

They can fix it and be up to a standard specialist if they use cybernetics to start with a +1 in their specialty for a 4 3 3 2 2 2, but since they are using cybernetics to reach that they will always be behind pure characters in terms of stat allocation. If they took master merchant their stats would be so low that you could plug ever cybernetic module into their bodies and they would still be terrible.

But if someone wants to make a one trick pony and afterwards has to spend all their experience and credits trying to learn a few other tricks then it just opens the possibility for more roleplaying.

I don't see how mentioning a numbered step by step process for character creation isn't relevant or has nothing to do with the question the OP asked, which was about the rules being applied at CHARGEN. The default reply could always be 'do whatever you want' but that isn't what was asked.

I don't disagree with following a step-by-step process, I just don't see how you can claim you follow that step-by-step process when purchasing equipment during species selection.

IMHO there is nothing in the wording that suggests an additional "purchase equipment" step immediately after species selection, followed by the "official" "purchase equipment" step at the end. Personally, I would just select species and move on without buying equipment yet, purchasing all equipment together in one step as per RAW. That seems to be supported by the species wording too.

No discounts apply during character creation. This is specifically laid out with the Mentor effects in Force and Destiny.

You are overcomplicating this. When you select a Gnak you get to choose 1 or 2 pieces of cyberware with a combined value of 5000 credits. This is NOT an additional purchase phase, any more then a Tei'lek having to choose a rank of Charm or Deception is a "Skill purchase phase". You make the selections and move on.

I don't disagree with following a step-by-step process, I just don't see how you can claim you follow that step-by-step process when purchasing equipment during species selection.

IMHO there is nothing in the wording that suggests an additional "purchase equipment" step immediately after species selection, followed by the "official" "purchase equipment" step at the end. Personally, I would just select species and move on without buying equipment yet, purchasing all equipment together in one step as per RAW. That seems to be supported by the species wording too.

The issue is treating those cybernetics selections like a purchase made during game play. Equipment bought at CHARGEN isn't like a purchase made during gameplay. You aren't rolling rarity to see if you can even find the item. You aren't rolling an opposed check against a merchant to set a real price. In the case of cybernetics you get them auto installed and don't have to pay or roll yourself. So to try and game the initial purchase with price reduction Talents only, while ignoring all the rolls you typically have to do in a gameplay setting is loophole rule lawyering.

The mentor effect very specifically is worded to show that 1. It affects only basic force powers 2. It cannot be combined with starting XP only earned xp.

It says nothing in general about talents working before the game starts.

I know a lot of you guys think that poof a character comes into play with all of the skills and talents the moment character creation is done and prior to that the character doesn't exist at all, but really does that make sense in a narritive game?

Those starting XP represent how the character lived their life and what they did. Maybe I am very permissive but I think its fine for characters to have a backstory even a compelling backstory and for their skills and talents to be available to them in part prior to the start of the game.

The game supports my view and even goes so far as to suggest giving a mechanic a free droid he has built etc.

My caveat is that I like to keep the power level consistent. So if a loophole breaks the balance of the game then I come down hard on it. I think I have shown you mathwise that this doesn't break the game at all.

Using a Talent that provides a benefit while not having the corresponding challenge/risk that is supposed to accompany it is clearly rule lawyering and is always a bad idea to allow.

So in your game shopping for legal items is a challenging risk. All I can think of is this, "In soviet russia tomato buys you"

You have a lot of time you are buying a legal item you find it on the holonet you go to where it is you buy it or have it delivered. No harrowing risks no great challenges no dramatic story arc... its just shopping for a legal item. Trust me no one wants to read a story about how I got a box of steaks on amazon. I pity the players whose adventures with you must revolve around the risk that the steaks took so long to arrive that they went bad or the epic challenge in finding matching painted blaster pistols.

I walked into 7/11 I bought an klondike bar I paid for it. in alternate reality world 2 I walked into a 7/11 they didn't have a klondike bar I went to CVS and they had a Klondike bar. And no one cared.

You roll a Negotiation check to find items, a challenge. You roll a contested Negotiation check with a merchant which typically means Challenge dice in the pool, so challenge and risk. I do it that way because that's the rules.

Given the OP asked a specific mechanical rules based question, I am providing specific mechanical rules based answers.

Again, if someone wants to engage in the 'do whatever the F you want' answer, more power to them.

I think there is the option given to use an appropriate area knowledge skill instead to find items (which I'd typically recommend unless someone is playing a negotiator character who needs a chance to shine), and haggling over price only comes in if you don't want to play list price.

Basically if it's the focus of one or more characters, play it up, otherwise, play it down.