I am currently about 200xp into a game and we've reached a significant milestone in our game. The GM is now allowing each player to develop and adopt a custom tree based around their character concept. In my case I want that to be Echani Martial Arts. I have been thinking that I would like the style to be a bit like Jeet Kune Do, and Capoeira in visual style. Mechanically, I want the talent tree to reflect on EMA's ability to effectively dispatch opponents, defend themselves, and the predictive nature of the style. I was hoping that I could invoke the forum's cooperation and general wisdom to bounce ideas and request suggestions to keep they talent tree balanced and focused.

The Echani art was an unarmed combat discipline developed by the Echani. Tradition dictated that combatants (usually) made no use of armor, weapons or Force techniques, as the art was focused on mastering the body itself as a weapon. Echani culture held the belief that combat was the only means to truly know someone, a pure form of expression where words were swept away, allowing for action to reveal the true nature of the people involved. Their duels were rituals, and it was important to follow etiquette, for that would allow them to read each others' stance and fight accordingly. In this manner, battle was seen as a form of communication similar to art. Exposing emotions in combat, however, made the duel a personal thing; engaging in repeated sessions was a courtship of sorts, in which one's favors were won through superior fighting prowess.[1]

The Echani art had three tiers, each relying on foundations, and featuring higher forms than the previous one. Echani children began by learning the foundations, progressing over time from one tier to the next as the instructor saw fit.[1]

Some of the common mechanics that I was thinking about were:

Defense: Dodge, Defensive Stance, Grit, Toughness

Offense: Feral Strength, Targeted Blow

Reading / Predictive: Rapid Reaction

For the capstones, I was thinking about Dedication, Sixth Sense, Superior Reflexes, and a custom talent which allows an opposed roll to 'read' the opponents to learn their strategy and perhaps expend advantage points to ask specific questions?

I did this at one point. I'd suggest putting pressure point in and 2 ranks in dodge, I'd remove feral strength and targeted blow and put in enduring and jump up and for a capstone echani form mastery (reduces dodge strain by 1 or 2 if you have not yet attacked in the combat round). and swiftness and improved swiftness (you may engage with an enemy in short range without spending an additional manuver to do so)

I always picture enchani as hard to hit quick and knowing exactly where to strike. The kip up seems appropriate and enduring/durable/toughness/grit all seem to fit into a martial artist. I initially liked defensive stance but chose against it for mechanical reasons.

Alternatively I played with the idea of ECHANI FORMS and using an incidental or reaction to shift into one, but that got as complex as force powers and I eventually gave up the idea

Jump up seems like a good idea.

If you are planning on cherry-picking your favorite talents, I suggest making the tree have a lot of winding paths to work through it as a balancing factor.

You might consider adding a couple ranks of Parry in as the defensive option.

I'd poo poo Pressure Point. It's way OP. It appears precisely once in the game thus far, and in not just a non combat spec but really a non combat Career. I don't think that's by accident.

I agree with kaosoe, if you're just planning on piling up the best of all things to stack a dice pool and results with a hand to hand spec, the pathways need to be very non linear and expensive.

One of the things to bear in mind here is the doubling up of talents that can occur, I personally think that FFG for balance reasons have limited the use of talents like point blank shot , barrage and even more so feral strength. Ive seen a number of specs that I would have expected to see it reprinted , eg enforcer , warden, aggresor etc so with custom talent trees id take my lead from that , otherwise you open the door for a cross spec that can cause an additional 10 dmg on a minimum dmg hit with melee or brawl weapon. Thus far only maurader and commando have 3 and 2 ranks for a grand total of 5 ranks available in 3 core books and 10 spec books.

Its your game of course but unconditional damage boosters are fairly rare in the game, although deadly accuracy has to be the best of then all (making it already possible for a minimum 14 dmg for a barehanded 3 str pc with 5 ranks of feral strength, and brawl skill, with deadly accuracy. At that level a persons hands are better than the EotE fully tricked out lightsaber

Sweep the leg. You have a problem with that?

Pressure point is only powerful if you build for it with high brawn, medicine, brawl and deadly accuracy.

Where a startng gadgeteer with 4 agi and 2 heavy weapons/gunnery can autofire the **** out of a mob of people and be insanely more effective with an off the shelf jury rigged heavy blaster rifle.

If you want to play an unarmed character there is literally no other way to be effective.

Pressure Point bypasses all Soak and allows to a PC to add in ranks of Medicine to damage. Even if it wasn't abused by a melee-er what kind of character wouldn't want high ranks of Medicine and a high Intellect playing a Doctor? Coupled with Anatomy Lessons? A Gadgeteer doesn't do what you suggest without a gun. Pressure Point requires zero gear. Mechanically the Talent's a lightsaber with your open hands.

Non sense in regards to not being able to be effective in hand to hand combat without Pressure Point. Gadgeteer's tree in particular, the right hand column with Improved Stunning Blow is very effective. Couple that with ranks of Frenzied Attack and that unarmed combatant would be great. Hard Headed/Improved, Grapple, Pin, all great unarmed style Talents that would make an unarmed combatant very effective.

Unarmed combatants shouldn't be able to beat heavily armored targets unconscious through the Strain mechanics, it's silly.

Enforcers talk the talk is similar (although not as useful as the doctor talent). Allowing additional dmg on a brawl check for a Destiny Point equal to streetwise ranks, also has another talent that allows you to swap any knowledge check for streetwise as well (or knowledge-underworld in place of streetwise) allowing the same skill to take the place of many and to boost damage Destiny points withstanding

I'd poo poo Pressure Point. It's way OP. It appears precisely once in the game thus far, and in not just a non combat spec but really a non combat Career. I don't think that's by accident.

I agree with kaosoe, if you're just planning on piling up the best of all things to stack a dice pool and results with a hand to hand spec, the pathways need to be very non linear and expensive.

This is a thread about custom PC specs. It appears in Doctor alone, once as a Talent for PCs which is the topic.

This is a thread about custom PC specs. It appears in Doctor alone, once as a Talent for PCs which is the topic.

That was not disputed; but your comment about the talent appearing in only one game was still either incorrect or at least incomplete due to the omission of that qualifying statement. Your point that putting pressure point in a combat spec could be/is overpowered is a valid argument, however that the game designers made sure that force and destiny only GMs had that option for their npcs weakens your logical argument without invalidating it completely. That information is relevant to the current discussion.

The whole thread is about a PC created spec, if one remains on topic in regards to the subject of the thread and doesn't ramble off on a pointless tangent there isn't a need for a qualifying statement.

My comment was aimed at its inclusion for PCs in the context of the thread which is about a player created custom spec. It really isn't hard if one pays attention and stays on topic.

The whole thread is about a PC created spec, if one remains on topic in regards to the subject of the thread and doesn't ramble off on a pointless tangent there isn't a need for a qualifying statement.

My comment was aimed at its inclusion for PCs in the context of the thread which is about a player created custom spec. It really isn't hard if one pays attention and stays on topic.

your comment argued that the devs considered that giving a combat character pressure point was overpowered, I provided evidence which suggests otherwise. It is clearly ON TOPIC, that is unless your claiming that anything that pokes holes in your logical arguments "off topic" due to the fact that it pokes holes in your logical arguments.

The thread is about PCs and PC specs, not NPCs, and I was referring to PCs, ya know, what we're all talking about, the topic, context, the point of the conversation. Your "evidence" that motorcycles don't have doors contributes zero to the discussion.

The thread is about PCs and PC specs, not NPCs, and I was referring to PCs, ya know, what we're all talking about, the topic, context, the point of the conversation. Your "evidence" that motorcycles don't have doors contributes zero to the discussion.

it is exactly as relevant as your argument that the devs consider pressure point overpowered in the hands of a combat character, simply because your comments made it relevant. Obviously you consider it relevant because you have made multiple posts about it, if you felt it was insignificant you would have ignored it. chilax man, people are allowed to have dissenting opinions and no one gave you the power to censure the internet so stop trying.

And for the record this is a discussion about a mechanic being overpowered or not, not PC vs NPC.

Uh no, this thread is about ideas for a player created spec for PCs.

I said the devs included in one non combat spec for PCs which I didn't feel was accidental, and given they put it in Doctor and nowhere else for PCs that's pretty self evident.

I said I think it's overpowered. I never said they considered it overpowered, if they had an issue they would've changed it, I've seen that in playtesting.

Clearly they put it in a non combat spec once though for a reason.

I think pressure point is very nichely useful but it is a really cool power. In games I have used it when sneaking into a base to quickly and quietly take out some guards.

In most combat situations there are better options, but in terms of stealth takedowns pressure point is great and it also garuntees that you will have someone for questioing.

Its also great for social situations where you cant bring weapons and you can still be dangerous.

But the XP cost to be effective and the multiple skill trees you need to pull it off makes it non optimized and very niche.

Fully optimized with brawn 7 brawl 6 and medicine 6 (with a ton of implants) deadly accuracy and no ranks in feral strength you are looking at 20 damage minimum on a hit +1 per success over 1. With destiny points and feral strength I'm sure you could get up to 30 strain in one hit but that would be very close to top of the line.

Your optimized mook with a crafted heavy blaster rifle jury rigged to af1 can have a base damage of 10 (+1 superior +1 crafted) (+3 augmented spin barrel) (+6 deadly accuracy) and wiht point blank shot and destiny points you could easily get over 30.

Now our optimized shooting mook has access to at least 5 accuracy mods concussive burn and god know what else you want to throw on it. Not to mention the amazing true aim.

Now even if you say oh well golly gee my 1 hit with pressure point bypasses armor. Congrats mr heavy blaster riffle is hitting every enemy in the combat a few times on most rolls.

Comparing pressure point to a lightsaber is just as absurd. What I quoted is the max optimization for a punch with a lightsaber you have soooooo many options in fact an entire book of talents that make lightsabers insane.

Pressure point is a nice trick for stealth, when you are captured etc but as a pure combat technique it just pales in comparison to what else is out there.

Some of the talents i invented in this tree were just to allow you to play an effective martial artist. if thats your thing

It's not niche to be able to bypass Soak with your bare hands.

It's not niche to be able to use two weapon combat with Brawl and bypass all Soak with your bare hands on two hits. That's not niche at all.

Added to a combat spec that might also have Stunning Blow/Improved, it's OP as hell.

No one does anything with a gun, unless they have a gun. Someone with Pressure Point always has a no Soak pair of attacks. You include it in an actual melee build and it is obviously OP.

There's a reason it's in one non combat spec in one non combat career.

Any rule system can be broken by those that seek to simply make min/max characters.

Uh no, this thread is about ideas for a player created spec for PCs.

I said the devs included in one non combat spec for PCs which I didn't feel was accidental, and given they put it in Doctor and nowhere else for PCs that's pretty self evident.

I said I think it's overpowered. I never said they considered it overpowered, if they had an issue they would've changed it, I've seen that in playtesting.

Clearly they put it in a non combat spec once though for a reason

you adding nuance/qualifying-statements now to your previous statement which lacked it, nuance which as I said your previous post needed.

What's not clear that they will NEVER put in combat spec in the future. Now you being a play tester might have inside information saying otherwise, and I know you can neither confirm nor deny that, but that's not info the rest of us have.

And a possible reason that they put it in doctor an in no other PC spec to date is where it fits thematically. It fits in doctor and hasn't thematically fit anywhere else with the *possible* exception of medic, but that is one data point at most, far too few to discern a pattern, much less attribute a cause. And pressure point could THEMATICALLY fit in a martial arts spec. which is the topic of discussion.

we have 3 pieces of *thematically* relevant information with which to discern a pattern/reason

doctor non combat spec has it

medic semi-combat (skills are the semi-yes, talents are the semi-no) spec does not

npc inquisitors in F&D can specifically have it.

And I think you were arguing that we throw out one of the three thematically relevant piece of info because it's associated with NPCs and add in a lot of thematically non-relevant info and make judgement about developers motivations based on that?

What's not clear that they will NEVER put in combat spec in the future. Now you being a play tester might have inside information saying otherwise, and I know you can neither confirm nor deny that, but that's not info the rest of us have.

Uh no, this thread is about ideas for a player created spec for PCs.

I said the devs included in one non combat spec for PCs which I didn't feel was accidental, and given they put it in Doctor and nowhere else for PCs that's pretty self evident.

I said I think it's overpowered. I never said they considered it overpowered, if they had an issue they would've changed it, I've seen that in playtesting.

Clearly they put it in a non combat spec once though for a reason

you adding nuance/qualifying-statements now to your previous statement which lacked it, nuance which as I said your previous post needed.

What's not clear that they will NEVER put in combat spec in the future. Now you being a play tester might have inside information saying otherwise, and I know you can neither confirm nor deny that, but that's not info the rest of us have.

And a possible reason that they put it in doctor an in no other PC spec to date is where it fits thematically. It fits in doctor and hasn't thematically fit anywhere else with the *possible* exception of medic, but that is one data point at most, far too few to discern a pattern, much less attribute a cause. And pressure point could THEMATICALLY fit in a martial arts spec. which is the topic of discussion.

we have 3 pieces of *thematically* relevant information with which to discern a pattern/reason

doctor non combat spec has it

medic semi-combat (skills are the semi-yes, talents are the semi-no) spec does not

npc inquisitors in F&D can specifically have it.

And I think you were arguing that we throw out one of the three thematically relevant piece of info because it's associated with NPCs and add in a lot of thematically non-relevant info and make judgement about developers motivations based on that?

What's not clear that they will NEVER put in combat spec in the future. Now you being a play tester might have inside information saying otherwise, and I know you can neither confirm nor deny that, but that's not info the rest of us have.

it also "might have" fit thematically in assassin a combat spec, but the reason for it's omission there is unclear. One possible reason is thematic misfit, assassins are killers, pressure point is take them alive. Another reason is that they chose anatomy lessons instead for the purpose of having symmetry with targeted blow also in the assassin try

Do you realize pressure point can't be used with any weapons at all it can't be included in a melee build

Once again to Quote EOTE page 141 "these checks cannot be made with any weapons"

And yes you can flurry but ONLY if both targets are in engaged range

Stunning blow does nothing at all when used with pressure point

Improved stunning blow can stagger on a triumph big whop 99% of the time there is a better use for a triumph then simply costing 1 enemy 1 turn.

Especially when with no talent a crafted ranged weapon can trigger concussive for the same effect for 1 advantage.

If your characters fight butt naked a lot then yes pressure point is awesome but weapons are so much better and even brawl weapons can't stack with pressure point.

Seriously which would you rather have a lightsaber with saber swarm and avalanche strike that has breach 2 and deals 20 damage + success and when in a pinch you can even saber throw it.... or pressure point.

It will never equal auto fire or a light saber.