Whats the best EPT to put on Vader and why?

VI. Move after everything else in the game. Also cheapest and most versatile cost efficient build.
No contest. All other options are literally more casual. There are no other truly t1 competitive options (except maybe Adaptability in weird PS8 Vessery tractor builds). Predator is casual.

VI.

PTL.

JK...

VI. Move after everything else in the game. Also cheapest and most versatile cost efficient build.

No contest. All other options are literally more casual. There are no other truly t1 competitive options (except maybe Adaptability in weird PS8 Vessery tractor builds). Predator is casual.

VI.

Disagree. I think it's Adaptability. Just because it gives you the same effect 97% of the time for 1 point less.

I'm with you on principle though. The reason to fly Vader is because he's PS10 or higher and doesn't have the weakness that the other Imperial Aces have (stress, more restricted dials to reach their full action potential, less raw HP against crackshot and autoblasters, etc).

If you put any other EPT on him to try to increase his relative action efficiency, what you're saying is that you actually wanted to be using a more action efficient ace, like Soontir, Inquis, Vessery, etc.

VI. Move after everything else in the game. Also cheapest and most versatile cost efficient build.

No contest. All other options are literally more casual. There are no other truly t1 competitive options (except maybe Adaptability in weird PS8 Vessery tractor builds). Predator is casual.

VI.

Disagree. I think it's Adaptability. Just because it gives you the same effect 97% of the time for 1 point less.

I'm with you on principle though. The reason to fly Vader is because he's PS10 or higher and doesn't have the weakness that the other Imperial Aces have (stress, more restricted dials to reach their full action potential, less raw HP against crackshot and autoblasters, etc).

If you put any other EPT on him to try to increase his relative action efficiency, what you're saying is that you actually wanted to be using a more action efficient ace, like Soontir, Inquis, Vessery, etc.

No it doesnt: There's tons of VI PS10s in the T2 meta atm, Corran, Poe, Wes. To be T1, you want to easily crush T2 level lists with no trouble.

Second, in strict T1 meta, you see a LOT of VI Vader mirror and you'll need the PS11. You can be lucky and have a local meta where no one really plays Soontir VI Vader Palp, but let's be honest, its one of the most powerful lists in the game. So happy I can say that now without PGS coming int to derail the thread.

Adapt Vader will lose to VI Vader. Thus, VI.

Predator

Lone Wolf

VI

Juke

Adaptability.

Can't see myself using any others.

Basically Vader wants higher PS, or non-TL attack rerolls. There's nothing else he needs from his EPT particularly. Juke is there on the off chance that the rest of your squad is using it, it's solid for him but not amazing.

I think Outmanuver is underrated on Vader. I run him with that and Accuracy Corrector and it does essentially the same thing as Adv. Targeting, with dropped agility instead of free crit, which is still +1 damage either way. Also means he can reposition or take defensive actions every turn without needing to target lock, which I think is necessary given his lack of Autothrusters.

Adapt Vader will lose to VI Vader. Thus, VI.

I'm willing to concede that point, although I think you're exaggerating the prominence of ships higher than PS9 (although it could be a regional difference). Poe is mostly gone where I am, Wes is a corner case tool box who's a response to the meta and pretty fragile, and Corran...well, I'll give you that one.

All that said, my opinion is probably biased because I fly my PS10 Vader alongside my PS10 Decimator and I like being able to move them interchangeably. Not only that, but I've identified all the PS10 potential threats you listed and determined that if they would be a problem for my Vader, they certainly won't be for my Decimator, which should be able to handle Poe at 2 dice, Vader with no autothrusters, PS10 Fett who has blind spots, Corran with no autothrusters and no Palp backup (although he's the toughest of the group).

Must be more Vaders in your neighborhood.

Anyway, let's agree that superior pilot skill is the point of Vader, not superior action efficiency. To that end, run VI or Adaptability to suit your needs.

Crackshot

Because you can't outplay green dice

I vote predator too it means less chance of removing a TL with cold dice and works even if you're stressed or blocked.

I vote predator too it means less chance of removing a TL with cold dice and works even if you're stressed or blocked.

The real problem to me isn't that Predator doesn't help, it's that it costs way too much.

0pt Adaptability puts you at PS10 and means you trump just about every other relevant ace, except enemy Corran and enemy Vader (unless their Vader is doing something foolish, like using Predator).

If you go Predator, now you're PS9 and you probably need to pay for an initiative bid of at least 2pts. It's not that big a deal if you're flying your Vader alongside Soontir, and you needed to pay for that initiative bid anyway, but if Vader is your high PS ace, your Predator now effectively costs you 5 points. That's a cost I can never justify when PS10 can pay such huge dividends in certain matches and costs 0pts.

I can't go past Adrenaline Rush on Vader. In every game there's one turn in which a k-turn is the only option, and since Vader is all about actions missing out on them is a dangerous hindrance. If you're using Advanced Targeting Computer this is especially true, since the enemy you end up closest to after k-turning might not be the one you already have locked. Do a red k, pop AR, do both your actions and move on with your life. There's no other way.

I vote predator too it means less chance of removing a TL with cold dice and works even if you're stressed or blocked.

The real problem to me isn't that Predator doesn't help, it's that it costs way too much.

0pt Adaptability puts you at PS10 and means you trump just about every other relevant ace, except enemy Corran and enemy Vader (unless their Vader is doing something foolish, like using Predator).

If you go Predator, now you're PS9 and you probably need to pay for an initiative bid of at least 2pts. It's not that big a deal if you're flying your Vader alongside Soontir, and you needed to pay for that initiative bid anyway, but if Vader is your high PS ace, your Predator now effectively costs you 5 points. That's a cost I can never justify when PS10 can pay such huge dividends in certain matches and costs 0pts.

Recently the ps race has meant a lot less especially with u boats and defenders around.

I used to like Daredevil with Engine Upgrade... being able to turn 135 degrees after you have moved is hilarious.

I can't go past Adrenaline Rush on Vader. In every game there's one turn in which a k-turn is the only option, and since Vader is all about actions missing out on them is a dangerous hindrance. If you're using Advanced Targeting Computer this is especially true, since the enemy you end up closest to after k-turning might not be the one you already have locked. Do a red k, pop AR, do both your actions and move on with your life. There's no other way.

I have not tried this but I know - so useful. If you know your opponent won't have higher than PS8, AD all the way.

VI. Move after everything else in the game. Also cheapest and most versatile cost efficient build.

No contest. All other options are literally more casual. There are no other truly t1 competitive options (except maybe Adaptability in weird PS8 Vessery tractor builds). Predator is casual.

VI.

poppycock.

Lone Wolf is the top tier choice. However, not everyone is good enough with it to get the most out of it. It has none of the weaknesses that other Vader builds have and can go toe-to-toe with any single ship you care to pick. Its the only build that has the potential to withstand turrets (usually Vader's greatest bane). And picking upgrades that help you overcome build weaknesses is generally a good idea.

Now, there are different reasons for choosing one particular card over the other, and good players typically make these choices based on meta. So for example, if you see a ton of PS10 ships in your meta, then sure, veteran instincts becomes a really good choice if you are really keen on being highest Pilot Skill. Of course Vader doesn't NEED to be highest Pilot Skill to beat other aces (although some players might feel that they need it), but that's a case where VI will really get value.

So ultimately the best EPT will be the one that gives you the greatest advantage (or offsets your greatest disadvantage) based on what is prevalent in your meta. Generally Speaking though, Lone Wolf will always be a good choice no matter what you fly against (assuming you can use it well).

I've been pretty firmly in the VI camp (with Adaptability if you're on a budget, or are running that weird Vessery build -- which is a ton of fun). Lone Wolf has its strengths, but can constrain your maneuverability (or prove useless) which makes me less keen on it... encouraging you to split your ships apart is typically a risky gambit, even with the super maneuverable Imperial Aces. I've been eager to try Juke Vader next time I get the chance -- it lets you use one action to double dip on offense and defense, and I think it might work well on a sort of "budget" Vader without Engine Upgrade (which slots you in at only one point more than the Inquisitor) in a list that's looking for a lean PS9 ace.

I agree with the VI people, because if you´re not picking Vader to have a PS11 ace, then why are you choosing him? There are other pilots that have better action economy, hit harder, have better dials, more shields etc. The only ace Vader has up his sleeve is the chance to elevate himself to PS11 in my opinion.

Well other than the fact he can maneuver into 49 different positions after his normal move with Daredevil, and can more or less get a shoot in any direction.

VI. Move after everything else in the game. Also cheapest and most versatile cost efficient build.

No contest. All other options are literally more casual. There are no other truly t1 competitive options (except maybe Adaptability in weird PS8 Vessery tractor builds). Predator is casual.

VI.

poppycock.

Lone Wolf is the top tier choice. However, not everyone is good enough with it to get the most out of it. It has none of the weaknesses that other Vader builds have and can go toe-to-toe with any single ship you care to pick. Its the only build that has the potential to withstand turrets (usually Vader's greatest bane). And picking upgrades that help you overcome build weaknesses is generally a good idea.

Now, there are different reasons for choosing one particular card over the other, and good players typically make these choices based on meta. So for example, if you see a ton of PS10 ships in your meta, then sure, veteran instincts becomes a really good choice if you are really keen on being highest Pilot Skill. Of course Vader doesn't NEED to be highest Pilot Skill to beat other aces (although some players might feel that they need it), but that's a case where VI will really get value.

So ultimately the best EPT will be the one that gives you the greatest advantage (or offsets your greatest disadvantage) based on what is prevalent in your meta. Generally Speaking though, Lone Wolf will always be a good choice no matter what you fly against (assuming you can use it well).

Sounds good in theory, but isn't so. Firstly, 1v1, VI vader will beat LW Vader because VI can always control the duel and LW has to guess both movements and best actions. Also due to higher PS, the reactive uses of Boost will also VI vader to gain angle advantage over LW Vader.

I'd admit that turrets are a pain for VI Vader, which you tend to mitigate at Tier1 with Palpatine and Soontir... Thus, its not really a weakness of the LIST, but rather of Vader himself.

But another look will also see that the PS9 large turrets are the most worrisome: Dengar and Han. Both of which can then arc dodge you with their built in initiative bids in Dengaroo and Han/Jake. Thus they will wear LW Vader down. That also assumes you can fly LW well enough to gain advantage from you, as it highly restricts your chioces of focus fire. Let's not even talk about the VI RAC PS10 list that someone already brought up just a few posts ago that would totally arc dodge your Vader and chunk it over and over and over until you're dead!

If you do take LW Vader, you can probably choose not to take Palpatine. But you're becoming more and more distinctly an awkward Tier2 list. Also, if you don't have the initiative bid, Palp Soontir Vader will be able to move BOTH Soontir and Vader after your Vader. Guess what: You're dead.

Here's the other crazy thing. VI is always the right choice. Why? You get used to playing and seeing the board form the last movement position. During tournaments you dont have to continually shift and remember if you're going first or last in an aces match. This type of consistency is the mark of an experienced tournament winner who wants to remove material that he needs to think about over 3 to 6 matches.

VI has already been discussed so I'll talk for a bit about predator.

I like predator as it helps mitigate the fact that your target lock is most likely being saved for ATC.

Downsides- 3 points, doesn't make you ps11, which means you both lose points for an initiative bid and are more likely to require an initiative bid.

Still... a near guaranteed 2 hits and a crit high up your shooting order is damned useful for stripping tokens.

I guess with all of this discussion we are assuming that Vader has ATC, and EU.

I guess with all of this discussion we are assuming that Vader has ATC, and EU.

Always ATC. EU is almost always. I always do, and I've really only lost to those with EU. But I know some forego it. 4 points.

I guess with all of this discussion we are assuming that Vader has ATC, and EU.

EU is kinda optional i suppose (though I honestly can't think of a mod that suits him better).

ATC is pretty much compulsory though, otherwise he's just not going to do enough damage.

30pt Vader is a thing. He's much better with EU, but 30pts is a goddarn steal for that ship.

I'm glad to see Darth getting more table time recently - conditions are right for his return to the top ...

I'm just repeating what others have said now, but the three builds I use the most are:

Lone Wolf 36pts

V(I)ader 35pts

Bargain Vader 30pts