Hey hey hey hey.

I hate doors. SO MUCH. I have a question about melee attacks, "blocked" doors, and cleave.

FIZZGRID TECHNOLOGY: ACTIVATE! FORM OF: MISSION I LOST LAST NIGHT!

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Red brackets = wall

Green brackets = a stupid door

G = Garkhaan

V = Verena

I = Inquisitor

The scenario = me playing as the Empire... very poorly

To the colorblind = my apologies

Me, in my decidedly finite wisdom, forgot that Verena picked up K'tara Maneuver. She kicked the Inquisitor away from the door he so desperately needed to attack. Garkhaan came in and blocked the other space in front of the door.

My question... is there anything that the Inquisitor could have done to do damage to the door, provided that Garkhaan and Verena do not move? I don't think his ranged attack could have been used, since he cannot draw LOS to the door. I believe he is not adjacent, so he cannot melee the door directly. And I believe that he also could not have cleaved the door, as he does not have reach (which I meant to be a reaffirmation of not having LOS to the door, derp).

Is that all correct?

All correct.

Also, Reach would also need line of sight, but line of sight cannot be drawn to the door.

And The Grand Inquisitor can't get Blast from anywhere either. (While he could have Arc Blasters and use the top ability with Lightsaber Throw, he would not have access to the bottom ability with Blast, because he doesn't have the ranged attack type.)

(You could attack the door if you can get either hero to withdraw....)

All correct.

Also, Reach would also need line of sight, but line of sight cannot be drawn to the door.

And The Grand Inquisitor can't get Blast from anywhere either. (While he could have Arc Blasters and use the top ability with Lightsaber Throw, he would not have access to the bottom ability with Blast, because he doesn't have the ranged attack type.)

Much obliged. Thanks for being so helpful, as usual.

EDIT - and thanks for the clarity on reach... I meant to add that reach wouldn't matter to my post and forgot it. Sloppy editing all around!

he cannot draw LOS to the door.

I think we actually need to check this. He can definitely draw a line from a corner of his space to either corner of the door without going through verena (I speak of the point line and the line going through the door itself) so unless "You cannot draw line of sight through doors" applies even when the door is your target (My feeling is that "you may draw los through your target is more specific so should get priority) he would have LOS. I've sent a rules query.

Edit: Okay, he doesn't actually need the point line, he can draw a line to any corner of the nearest space that it occupies.

You can only draw line of sight to spaces, and the door only occupies empty spaces that share an edge with the door.

(Line of sight requires you to draw two non-overlapping lines from one corner of the attacker's space to two adjacent edges of the target space.)

You can't draw line of sight to the door itself that is between spaces, it's a special object. Check the FAQ for the door rules.

"When attacking a door, using an ability that affects a door, or
counting spaces to a door, the door is considered to be occupying
each empty space with which it shares an edge."

"The spaces that share an edge with a door are the only spaces that
are considered adjacent to that door. When declaring a melee (melee)
attack targeting a door, the attacker must be in one of those
spaces. If the attacker has Reach, he must be in or adjacent to one
of those spaces."

The latter is for abilities calling for adjacency, the former for abilities needing to Count Spaces or drawing line of sight. (Emphasis added by me.)

You can only draw line of sight to spaces, and the door only occupies empty spaces that share an edge with the door.

See my edit.

You keep editing your post with more details as if that changes the fact that, if he can draw LOS through his target even though it's a door, he can draw a line to any of the corners of the space that the door occupies that he shares a corner with.

A door blocks adjacency and line of sight (and counting spaces). You cannot draw line of sight to the other side of the door.

The only spaces adjacent to the door are the spaces sharing an edge with the door.

Melee attacks require adjacency, ranged attacks need to target a space, and attacks with reach are defined by the door rules in the FAQ.

A door blocks adjacency and line of sight. You cannot draw line of sight to the other side of the door.

Figure's also block LOS. You can draw LOS through them if you're shooting at them.

Unless you have some evidence to say that "You cannot draw line of sight through doors" over-rides "A figure can trace line of sight through itself and through its target" then my query is absolutely necessary.

Okay so what I think you're saying is that the door isn't treated as the target of the attack for purposes of LOS and instead the target of the attack is a phantom object in a certain space whose edge the door is on. That might be the case but it's enough of an inference that I really think we need the ruling to come through.

A door blocks adjacency and line of sight. You cannot draw line of sight to the other side of the door.

Figure's also block LOS. You can draw LOS through them if you're shooting at them.

Unless you have some evidence to say that "You cannot draw line of sight through doors" over-rides "A figure can trace line of sight through itself and through its target" then my query is absolutely necessary.

That's a good point; I hadn't thought of that. If the door is the target of your attack, why can't you trace LOS through it?

Edit: And if that's the case, what if there are figures on both spaces on the other side of the door? Can you not draw LOS to the door in that case?

Add that to the issue of supposedly not being able to target a door you are adjacent to with a ranged attack, and this really makes me question the robustness of the rules about attacking doors...

If spaces are not adjacent, their distance cannot be 1. Could you tell me what the distance is? How much accuracy will you need?

(The Grand Inquisitor is not adjacent to the door by the door rules I have already quoted.)

Unless you have some evidence to say that "You cannot draw line of sight through doors" over-rides "A figure can trace line of sight through itself and through its target" then my query is absolutely necessary.

From the Learn to Play Guide:

Doors: Indicated by a door token between spaces on the map. Two spaces separated by a door are not adjacent. Figures cannot move through or trace line of sight through doors.

Edit: And if that's the case, what if there are figures on both spaces on the other side of the door? Can you not draw LOS to the door in that case?

Add that to the issue of supposedly not being able to target a door you are adjacent to with a ranged attack, and this really makes me question the robustness of the rules about attacking doors...

Yes figures on the other side would block LOS. (I think something similar (except with figures on the same side of the door) happens with grenade effects in the current rules). You can attack adjacent doors with ranged, you explicitly have LOS to everything adjacent to you.

If spaces are not adjacent, their distance cannot be 1.

I see no reason to make this assumption.

On further thought I will concede that you can't count spaces to it by RAW. This means that accuracy is not relevant since missing happens when "The total accuracy value is less than [the number of spaces]".

Unless you have some evidence to say that "You cannot draw line of sight through doors" over-rides "A figure can trace line of sight through itself and through its target" then my query is absolutely necessary.

From the Learn to Play Guide:

Doors: Indicated by a door token between spaces on the map. Two spaces separated by a door are not adjacent. Figures cannot move through or trace line of sight through doors.

I'm not disputing that you can't draw LOS through doors normally, but there's a specific clause saying "A figure can trace LOS through itself and through it's target."

You obviously need to wait for the reply from FFG.

We have a recent ruling about attacking companions in your space needing 1 accuracy due to them being adjacent. You are allowed to attack objects in your space, but objects and figures in the same space are adjacent only for the purposes of blast and cleave, so they need 0 accuracy. This ruling should tell you that it is quite sensible to make the equation adjacent <=> distance 1.

The rules reference already tells you that adjacent spaces are distance 1 from each other. If non-adjacent spaces could be distance 1 from each other, you could move between them by moving 1 space, thus they would be adjacent.

There are of course possible to have mission rules to spend 1 movement point to move to a space that is not adjacent to your current space, but that would not be moving by 1 space.

(Edit: for ranged attacks you always have to target a space. Just being adjacent to the door is not enough.)

This ruling should tell you that it is quite sensible to make the equation adjacent <=> distance 1.

This equation is in fact entirely incorrect. In the OP if Verena wasn't there then the inquisitor is at range 1 from the door but not adjacent.

Edit: Realized just after posting this that you said spaces initially, still, we're not talking entirely about spaces here (and for goodness sake attacks do not target spaces (imagine range attacking a door that has a figure on each side of it, that door does not exist in a space)).

Required accuracy is determined by Counting Spaces.

And yes, ranged attacks always target spaces. It has been well established the previous time we had a discussion about door and blast. Blast does not work without a targeted space. And this is the reason for the rule about doors occupying spaces. If you could target doors and determine line of sight and determine the needed accuracy by not targeting a space the door occupies, the whole rule would not be needed.

If the door does not occupy a space you can target, you cannot attack the the door with a ranged attack.

This ruling should tell you that it is quite sensible to make the equation adjacent <=> distance 1.

This equation is in fact entirely incorrect. In the OP if Verena wasn't there then the inquisitor is at range 1 from the door but not adjacent.

Wether Verena is or isn't there, the Grand Inquisitor is 1 space away from being adjacent to the door.

If Verena isn't there, the Grand Inquisitor could perform a ranged attack (Lightsaber Throw) requiring 1 accuracy to hit. That doesn't mean the Grand Inquisitor is distance 1 from the door for movement, nor does it mean the Grand Inquisitor is adjacent to the door. He is only distance 1 from the door and the door is distance 1 from him for abilities using Counting Spaces that affect the door - these include ranged attacks and mission rules that use "within X spaces of door", maybe a few others.

(Melee attacks use adjacency, not counting spaces, so the door does not occupy spaces for melee attacks. Melee attacks with reach have been specified separately in the new door rules.)

If the door does not occupy a space you can target, you cannot attack the the door with a ranged attack.

Oh god, you're right, there's no clause saying that a figure has LOS to adjacent objects... this is horrible, has a real effect on the game and I severely hope they errata it.

Forget everything else...

Oh god I'm actually so horrified by this that I'm almost lost for words.

Seriously, how long have you existed comfortably with this knowledge?

Sending a query and praying this is wrong.

What is wrong?

If both spaces that are adjacent to the door are occupied, you can not target the door with a ranged attack. (Except I house-rule that if you are in the adjacent space, you can target the door in your own space. It would be silly otherwise, although it is rules as written.)

You can attack a figure on the adjacent space and Blast the door, because Blast checks for adjacency, and the door is adjacent to spaces it shares an edge with.

Oh god, you're right, there's no clause saying that a figure has LOS to adjacent objects...

Yes, doors are hard.

What is wrong?

If both spaces that are adjacent to the door are occupied, you can not target the door with a ranged attack. (Except I house-rule that if you are in the adjacent space, you can target the door in your own space. It would be silly otherwise, although it is rules as written.)

You can attack a figure on the adjacent space and Blast the door, because Blast checks for adjacency, and the door is adjacent to spaces it shares an edge with.

The fact that you have to house rule that is what's wrong.

I have not have it happen yet. I haven't really thought about a case where it would come up. Maybe if you can just get to the door with your last movement point but don't have an action left to attack.

Edit: More reading https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/201851-blast-targeting-doors/

Yes, doors are hard.

Aha! The nefarious Schrödinger's Door strikes again! Or rather, managed to avoid being struck.

Realising that doors are there or not there, depending on whether the space is empty or not, was my Imperial Assault Dr. Strangelove moment.

Did anyone submit this to FFG? I can, just don't want to spam them!

What would you ask and what would you expect the answer to be?

I have the generic answer from Paul sent June 25th 2015, so if you know what you are asking, then that and me talking to myself may provide the answer directly.

My general response to all of these possible scenarios is that the rule restricting what a door is or is not adjacent to overrides even what spaces the door is “occupying.” So, even though the door is occupying a space that is adjacent to the Probe Droid, the door itself is not adjacent to the Probe Droid because the Probe Droid is not in one of the spaces that it must be in in order to be considered adjacent to that door. The same ruling applies to Blast and Grenades.

So here I'm trying to get things aligned in my mind to be able to interpret the other cases properly in the future.

FAQ:
“The spaces that share an edge with a door are the only spaces that are considered adjacent to that door.

So, in effect the above part is the main rule. This applies to all abilities. It makes adjacency to the door neat and clear.

This suggests that the underlined part of the FAQ entry below ( attacking a door, using an ability that affects a door, or ) only lists examples of cases when we might be counting spaces to the door or determine LoS, and need the door to occupy a space to do so. It is only occupying space for those purposes, and not in fact apply to abilities that do not use Counting Spaces (or Line of Sight).

FAQ:
“When attacking a door, using an ability that affects a door, or counting spaces to a door, the door is considered to be occupying each empty space with which it shares an edge.”

Abilities that refer to adjacency do not require the door to occupy a space, so this statement does not apply (is overriden by the door adjacency rule), although it refers to "an ability that affects a door".

So:
* Abilities that require adjacency require (deal with) one of the spaces that share an edge with the door.
* Abilities that refer to a space the object (door) occupies, only an empty space adjacent to the door is valid.

Well folks seemed to suggest that my Inquisitor might be able to attack the door based on the notion that LOS can be drawn through the what you're attacking. I believe the implication was that I could attack the door because the "upper right" corner of the Inquisitor's space could draw LOS through the door to the spaces on the other side.

But perhaps I misinterpreted what Norgath was suggesting.

Well folks seemed to suggest that my Inquisitor might be able to attack the door based on the notion that LOS can be drawn through the what you're attacking. I believe the implication was that I could attack the door because the "upper right" corner of the Inquisitor's space could draw LOS through the door to the spaces on the other side.

But perhaps I misinterpreted what Norgath was suggesting.

Well, we can conclude that the Inquisitor could not perform a melee attack on the door, because he is not adjacent. Melee attacks require adjacency, not LOS (you always have LOS to anything you are adjacent to, but not necessarily the other way around). But could he perform a ranged attack?