Who's still having problems against triple jumps? Just fly better dude.

I flew better and still couldn't be triple jumpmasters. I didn't start consistently beating them until I flew even better.

I gotta agree, I really dislike what they have done to the meta. Jumpmaster are beatable but they make it near impossible for some really good lists to beat it. Think about four bz. Triple scouts crush that list.

Contracted Scout should have never had the EPT. It created this whole mess due to too many synergies on a cheap base. Problem solved.

Problem solved? Only the scout, not the jumpmaster.

The Deengaro problem is still the same, and Deengaro if fairly more powefull than the 3 contracted scouts.

Maybe the scouts shouldn't have EPT slot. <--- Absolutely Agree

Maybe zuckuss and agromech shouldn't work if the ship have previous stress. <--- Again, Absolutely Agree.

Maybe de X7 title should be 0 points and give a free evade action, not a token. <--- No real feelings either way.

Maybe the Emperor should be Epic only. <--- Agreement, but not absolute agreement.

Maybe the TLT should cost a focus to shoot, or/and hace a mobile firing arc. <--- Focus, or just cost 1pt more.

Maybe all the turrets should have mobile firing arc. <--- THIS. There is nothing here I agree more with.

Maybe regenerating should let the ship without attacks the next round. <--- First thing I disagree about. Regeneration feels properly costed on most pilots. I think the Shield Upgrade should have cost only 3, and hull 2. But perhaps that is only in the current JM5K meta.

Maybe Soontir should cost 2 more points. <--- Or more...

Or maybe none of those "power creeps" really dont kill, broke or maul the game. And the Xwing dominating the world wargame scene, even over the theoretically invincible WH40k, is a good proof of that.

I've added my comments in bold.

My main problem with the JumpMaster 5000 is theme. Standard JumpMasters have a pair of laser cannons. Dengar upgraded the Punishing One with a quad-laser turret (2 dice to 3 dice, okay) and a Proton Torpedo Launcher (um, Scouts and everyone else, why do you all have this custom build?) and an astromech slot in the turret (again, what's everyone else doing?)

They took all the cool, custom elements of Dengar's ship and made them common elements of the generic, causing a cheap freighter to become the game's premier torpedo carrier.

This is the problem exactly. The Scout and Tel should not have torpedoes or astromech. That (more or less) fixes all the problems straight away.

My main problem with the JumpMaster 5000 is theme. Standard JumpMasters have a pair of laser cannons. Dengar upgraded the Punishing One with a quad-laser turret (2 dice to 3 dice, okay) and a Proton Torpedo Launcher (um, Scouts and everyone else, why do you all have this custom build?) and an astromech slot in the turret (again, what's everyone else doing?)

They took all the cool, custom elements of Dengar's ship and made them common elements of the generic, causing a cheap freighter to become the game's premier torpedo carrier.

This is the problem exactly. The Scout and Tel should not have torpedoes or astromech. That (more or less) fixes all the problems straight away.

Because that worked out so well for ORS and non-Virago Starvipers, right? FFG has tried this approach twice before, and it never worked (the 'lesser' versions are pretty much never fielded).

I gotta agree, I really dislike what they have done to the meta. Jumpmaster are beatable but they make it near impossible for some really good lists to beat it. Think about four bz. Triple scouts crush that list.

4BZ hasn't been a 'good list' for a long time (I think since fat turrets?). I started playing in Wave 6, and even back then 4BZ was no longer reaching the top tables in tournaments. Blaming it on the Jumpmasters is either silly or biased.

In a more general sense, lists being pushed out of the meta is a naturally occurring phenomenon, and it's not necessarily connected to power creep (power creep does push lists out, but not all lists being pushed out are due to power creep).

X-wing doesn't do 'take all comers' lists too well (probably the closest thing to that are Defenders) IMO and therefore the top lists aren't top because they're good against anything and everything, but because they're good against what's currently popular. When what's popular changes, so do the top list.

Before Jumpmasters, we had no real Alpha Strike in the game, which meant 'must resist or avoid an Alpha Strike' was never on the drawing board when designing a competitive list. When Jumpmasters came out, lists that were good but couldn't meet the Alpha Strike (like Rebel Regen) went extinct, while lists that could handle the Alpha Strike just fine (despite not being specifically designed for it), like Palp Aces remained survived mostly unchanged.

Jumpys changed the game a whole lot, it's true. The fact that they changed it in a build that the designers hadn't foreseen, and therefore hadn't factored in when balancing the ship, is a bit of a problem in my eyes. (TLT was a big change too, but the threat was assessed and balanced by the designers.)

Torp Scouts are a big deal, they are pretty hard to put down, and with slicers out, they've shed one of their hard counter lists (ptl aces).

Manaroo & Dengar, though, are where the ship gets really good. Two amazing pilots that really changed the game. Scum get a Palpatine-light on a great ship at a great cost. They also get the best ps9 large ship in the game, hands down.

Bumpmasters can be pretty scary too.

Finally, Tel is a great pilot, but comes in last - which Tels you all you need to know about the strength of this ship.

So I'd agree that Jumpys have changed the game forever, in some good ways (<3 Manny) and some not so good.

But salting about 'broken X-wing' and telling anyone who disagrees with you that they don't understand the game is pretty bad form old bean.

Adding the unique dot to deadeye would make jumpmasters have the same problem as every other low PS ship in the game trying to fire ordnance (2/3 of them anyhow). That one guy out there trying to make his deadeye A wing swarm competitive would just have to tough it out (sorry, guy).

EDIT: Well shoot. Never thought of making it small ship only. That'd work even better.

I think, as a player that's had some time away from the game to look back at it, the problem with the direction of the game is the designers errata philosophy, which is straight hypocrisy with their current design philosophy.

They want you to be able to go to the store, buy your product, and play it. No erratas/bans or anything. Seems nice, right?

But when power creeping the game is your design philosophy. I actually CAN'T go to the store and just buy something and play it. The meta they've designed can invalidate my purchase before I've even bought it.

Which would lead me to the question: Is it better to have to research before which product I buy and only buy a few of the line, or to buy the whole product line first and have to look up some errata afterwards? Then ask questions like which of those options is better for the consumer, for the company, for community support etc.

I think, as a player that's had some time away from the game to look back at it, the problem with the direction of the game is the designers errata philosophy, which is straight hypocrisy with their current design philosophy.

They want you to be able to go to the store, buy your product, and play it. No erratas/bans or anything. Seems nice, right?

But when power creeping the game is your design philosophy. I actually CAN'T go to the store and just buy something and play it. The meta they've designed can invalidate my purchase before I've even bought it.

Which would lead me to the question: Is it better to have to research before which product I buy and only buy a few of the line, or to buy the whole product line first and have to look up some errata afterwards? Then ask questions like which of those options is better for the consumer, for the company, for community support etc.

IMO, the problem with the direction of the game is the lack of a solid mathematical model to base balancing on. FFG is unable/unwilling to do it so most balancing is a combination of designer experience and play testing. Even if they rebooted everything tomorrow with either a comprehensive errata or a brand new edition altogether and it was perfectly balanced, it's only a matter of time until something else slips through.

That being said, how much added value would a perfectly balanced game bring to FFG? Most people are either happy to play what they like, or happy to play what's currently strong. Apart from really huge issues like pre-nerf phantoms, I don't think the unhappiness in the x-wing community as a whole is great enough to affect FFGs income (which, in the end, is their ultimate goal).

Ran out of popcorn. Darn.

All I got from this thread was the fact you all still need to learn to trim your quotes. That wall of re texting... Jeeeeeeez.

Outside of that, I see nothing here that doesn't constitute as not whining. People try to put real world ideas into this game, yet don't mind the WWII physics in space.

Go ahead, get rid of JM5K ordinance. I'll be sitting back here with rebel regen waiting to go. The good old glory days of not being able to kill a ship even though you put 10+ damage on it and then they never fire on you.

Also, if you think JM5Ks are the only good ordinance carriers, I beg you to try 2 Gamma vets with deadeye, homing, EM, and GC in a list. It's a great little set up. Much more satisfying then JM5Ks and easier to fly. Then you have the empire's pocket aces to fill in your list.

I don't see it so much as power creep, but opening of options. If adding something that is good but counterable is power creep, then sure, but if we need that, might as well nerf all the other OP things. Palp to 12+ points, Fel to 49 points, TLTs to 10, Whisper can't equip advanced cloaking, Poe only gets to use his ability once per round, C3PO just gives annoying banter, OL needs to acquire the TL twice to get the ability, Vessery can't equip any title card, Zuckuss now damages you with every stress past 1 when you use it.... Ok I can keep going on with lame fixes. I lost interest.

Anyways off to make more popcorn, hell I don't even like popcorn.

Adding the unique dot to deadeye would make jumpmasters have the same problem as every other low PS ship in the game trying to fire ordnance (2/3 of them anyhow). That one guy out there trying to make his deadeye A wing swarm competitive would just have to tough it out (sorry, guy).

Before ordnance (finally) got some fixes to make it viable, deadeye was hardly ever used. Making it unique now will let it slip into fringe territory again. Guess why Imp vets contains 2 gamma squadron vets with an EPT? These would be affected as well.

Adding the unique dot to deadeye would make jumpmasters have the same problem as every other low PS ship in the game trying to fire ordnance (2/3 of them anyhow). That one guy out there trying to make his deadeye A wing swarm competitive would just have to tough it out (sorry, guy).

No.

Before ordnance (finally) got some fixes to make it viable, deadeye was hardly ever used. Making it unique now will let it slip into fringe territory again. Guess why Imp vets contains 2 gamma squadron vets with an EPT? These would be affected as well.

Actually, I think the best way to nerf TorpScouts is to make Deadeye small ship only. then they would have to target lock (if they're lucky enough). However they would equip another 1 point ept (crack shot). there would be a counter in black one poe.

Look at the topic "what win the Worlds?" Not a single 3xjm5k bet.

So yea - really op. Please stop crying and learn to play, I suggest.

My biggest concern is that the scout took the roles away from other ships. First off, it's a freighter, not a military bomber. Why does it fire missles better than bombers and ywings? Yes dengar ship was customized, but just a regular freighter sho not be able to out perform military ships. It's like having a fed ex plane be a better fighter plane than a f-15

Looking at the way ffg has designed stuff in the past, it looks like with some ships and upgrades they were being extra careful not to make something to powerful, and then got tired and decided to do something off the wall. Look at the firespray stats and dials. The hwk, etc.

It's not about the difficulty of the ship. Easy to beat or not, I do not like the design of it. I do find it hard not to include one in a scum list because, why not, for its pts and what it does it becomes a better option over other ships

I think, as a player that's had some time away from the game to look back at it, the problem with the direction of the game is the designers errata philosophy, which is straight hypocrisy with their current design philosophy.

They want you to be able to go to the store, buy your product, and play it. No erratas/bans or anything. Seems nice, right?

But when power creeping the game is your design philosophy. I actually CAN'T go to the store and just buy something and play it. The meta they've designed can invalidate my purchase before I've even bought it.

I dropped by a local game shop last night on a whim and found all the X-Wing products on sale at 40% off. Naturally, there were tons of B-Wings, Y-Wings, TIE Bombers, TIE Punishers, and M3-A Sycks. Anything popular in the current meta was sold out or nearly sold out.

I think that the Contracted Scout is underpriced/overpowered (take your pick). The sheer number of upgrade options available to it is what allows it to become overpowered. Remove the EPT slot, and viable ordinance builds vanish, no matter how many you run. My personal theory is that the card artwork is basically the error. The three unique pilots were created, their upgrade slots were selected, but then that card art was copied down to the CS, and someone forgot to remove the EPT. The limiting effect of the difficulty of having to obtain a target lock to fire off ordinance on a low PS ship is an intentional effect. It's so limiting that one of the recent bomber fixes is the LRS upgrade. They blew it with the JM5k by allowing deadeye on the PS3 generic. Even at a base of 25 points each, you can't make a squad of 3 jm5k's a viable ordinance list if you simply remove Deadeye. It fails, every time.

That being said, any game is going to have some power creep. With this, the only way to figure out "how far is too far" is to hit that point, and I think the JM5k is that point. I think they can honestly look back at that and say "this is the line we never cross again". Not sure what other games to reference ( I got out of 40k long ago), but back to my MTG days, the power 9 was a pretty good example of "whoops, we broke the hell out of that...".

So we saw balance basically shift when cloaking was unveiled. Whisper broke everything, because at PS9, displacing, then moving and then possibly even displacing again made her the ultimate dodger. She murdered everything. So they revised the way cloak works. It wouldn't be difficult to errata the CS to remove the EPT. New printings remove it. Existing are fixed via FAQ/Errata/Rules revision, same way that cloak or any other revised card text is.

They should errata the card, from contracted scout, to contracted mercenary. Cause too many people keep thinking a gun for hire would not outfit their ship. Honestly think it might be a hang up on the name. Otherwise I'm not sure why people don't think the denizens of star wars wouldn't spruce it up. Hell they are even being hired for a reason, so that reason might be they have an above average, but still common talent.

Just attacking this from the fluff side, cause so many seem to use their head canon to invalidate the ship.

You guys are smart and this thread is a great read; I think the overarching thoughts lean towards the Jumps being ill-designed and seemingly almost devoid of playtesting....EPT, dial, arc; something should have cluded in the designers. I also get the X-Wing buff whiners jumping in, it's an easy bunny trail; but why in the world would anyone drag in the Ace to this conversation is beyond me; all hail:

@Lordblades my understanding is they do have a model to price out the stat line and slots, but not the dial. In interviews the design team had repeatedly said the dial is the thing they have to spend the most time on, because it's just such a dynamic part of how that ship performs on the table. Which I would agree with. In another interview, Davy admitted that the team had not tested the Jumpmasters for the use of Dead Eye, because they believed it was a 'dud' card, and would not see play. Which tells me that they don't have a respectable testing system in the first place that would catch that obvious error. Wizards of the Coast had a similar arrogant mistake when they released a card called Necropotence years ago. But that's another story.

Now I was never asking for a perfectly balanced game while I was playing. Not even for a imperfectly balanced one was something I asked for. But if they wanted me to continue buying X-wing product, you have to show me every purchase has merit. They want to sell me new stuff, fine. But they don't get me to continue buying additional copies of old stuff with that mentality, I have no reason to. When I go to buy a product, I need to know that site this might be under the bar a smidge, but it will still be playable and provide me with a good gaming experience.

Man, people listening to like thirty seconds of that one podcast and then repeating for weeks that Alex Davy said they never saw torp scouts coming is the best/worst part of these boards. That is not what he said and that is not what he meant. Stop repeating that it was.

Man, people listening to like thirty seconds of that one podcast and then repeating for weeks that Alex Davy said they never saw torp scouts coming is the best/worst part of these boards. That is not what he said and that is not what he meant. Stop repeating that it was.

Wait he did say the missed the obvious deadeye synergy in testing. What are you suggesting here?

jm5k is so powerful its in virtually EVERY list, even casual play. I cant remember the last time i faced a scum player that didnt use a jm5k.

im getting tired of facing dengar literally every match. Even if hes a lousy pick for what theyre doing, they still bring him.

Well, that is probably more a problem with list building creativity. If you are actually playing casual, temp-ban the ship to force people out of their box.

If Scum players whine it's unfair, temp-ban one thing that is Imperial and one thing that is Rebel as well.

I've played my JM5K twice just to see what the fuss was all about, then went back to having fun trying to make Scyks work. I play games like this to see if I can make things work, not to be told online what the best option is and then mind-numbingly play the Victory List.

easier to just spitefully counter-list in casual

if you're not running up in a tournie scene with the threat of imperial palpatine leering down on you, it's very easy to counter-build and steamroll jm5ks

all you need is lots of damage at PS > 3. Crackswarm is the perfect example of this

and then you mercilessly crush the casual meta until people learn not to bring the same **** thing over and over again

Hell, I'm already preparing to do this **** if I see Hotr giving people the wrong idea about fat PWTs being okay again

I doubt the games are very casual once they reach the point of spiteful. I also wouldn't be suggesting to people that they should be counter-listing against their local gaming group. I've seen local guys caught trying it before, and the reaction from opponents and other surrounding players is generally a bad one. You probably weren't being serious, but I really don't want the X-wing community to start playing that way regardless of your opponents list. If you've built a squad in advance, before knowing for certain what your opponent is bringing, fair enough. However, changing your list after your opponent has already set up should be frowned upon.

Well, he probably was serious, but he does have a point. If everyone who doesn't fly JM5Ks builds a list with them in mind, it won't be fun to play JM5K for long. . .but now everyone's not having fun.

I liked the idea of banning ships in casual play. It accomplishes the same goal as counter-listing, while keeping a fair and enjoyable gaming experience.

Enjoyable if the banned ship wasn't something you want to play..

I don't even think banning is necessary in casual play. It simply seems like the best decision for people who absolutely can't stand {Insert Ship}.

Sure, it's not necessary. The guy who is sick and tired of seeing your favorite ship over and over can just stop showing up. Then your gaming group can die, the game can die, and you can encase your favorite ship in acrylic for the rest of time.

jm5k is so powerful its in virtually EVERY list, even casual play. I cant remember the last time i faced a scum player that didnt use a jm5k.

im getting tired of facing dengar literally every match. Even if hes a lousy pick for what theyre doing, they still bring him.

Well, that is probably more a problem with list building creativity. If you are actually playing casual, temp-ban the ship to force people out of their box.

If Scum players whine it's unfair, temp-ban one thing that is Imperial and one thing that is Rebel as well.

I've played my JM5K twice just to see what the fuss was all about, then went back to having fun trying to make Scyks work. I play games like this to see if I can make things work, not to be told online what the best option is and then mind-numbingly play the Victory List.

easier to just spitefully counter-list in casual

if you're not running up in a tournie scene with the threat of imperial palpatine leering down on you, it's very easy to counter-build and steamroll jm5ks

all you need is lots of damage at PS > 3. Crackswarm is the perfect example of this

and then you mercilessly crush the casual meta until people learn not to bring the same **** thing over and over again

Hell, I'm already preparing to do this **** if I see Hotr giving people the wrong idea about fat PWTs being okay again

I doubt the games are very casual once they reach the point of spiteful. I also wouldn't be suggesting to people that they should be counter-listing against their local gaming group. I've seen local guys caught trying it before, and the reaction from opponents and other surrounding players is generally a bad one. You probably weren't being serious, but I really don't want the X-wing community to start playing that way regardless of your opponents list. If you've built a squad in advance, before knowing for certain what your opponent is bringing, fair enough. However, changing your list after your opponent has already set up should be frowned upon.

Well, he probably was serious, but he does have a point. If everyone who doesn't fly JM5Ks builds a list with them in mind, it won't be fun to play JM5K for long. . .but now everyone's not having fun.

I liked the idea of banning ships in casual play. It accomplishes the same goal as counter-listing, while keeping a fair and enjoyable gaming experience.

Enjoyable if the banned ship wasn't something you want to play..

I don't even think banning is necessary in casual play. It simply seems like the best decision for people who absolutely can't stand {Insert Ship}.

Sure, it's not necessary. The guy who is sick and tired of seeing your favorite ship over and over can just stop showing up. Then your gaming group can die, the game can die, and you can encase your favorite ship in acrylic for the rest of time.

Something broke? Maybe a crutch could help.

Man, people listening to like thirty seconds of that one podcast and then repeating for weeks that Alex Davy said they never saw torp scouts coming is the best/worst part of these boards. That is not what he said and that is not what he meant. Stop repeating that it was.

Wait he did say the missed the obvious deadeye synergy in testing. What are you suggesting here?