[or insert 25-point Scum ship here]

This right here being the problem. Scum doesn't have a lot of good options in the 25 point range because most of our small base ships aren't worth running. The N'dru there could do some good damage, but could just as easily melt before ever firing off the cluster missiles since it's a z95. Not nearly as good as a party bus, or fenn rau, or even zuckuss with 2 uboats like you can do now.

And a 30 point scout makes non-uboat builds, such as the bumpmaster, way less useful.

So what is it in Wave 9?

Kad Solus, cause talon rolls are rad when they give you focus.

but they're more rad when you're PS9 and some JumpMaster on the other side of the board can give you the focus right before you fire.

"Jumpmaster broke this game" Blame the ship if you like. A game is broken by the behaviors of participants

What is actually broken? In game stores, man caves and dining rooms people are having fun playing X-wing in the post-Jumpmaster world. They are having fun because their behaviors and attitudes support fun gameplay. So if you're not having fun, ask yourself, "What is broken?" Blame the ship if you like.

The first time I faced a Jumpmaster was in competition; my squad disintegrated in two rounds of combat. Blame the ship if you like. (I don't.) I congratualted my opponent; we recorded scores and had a rematch because there was still over an hour left in the round. My opponent is still a friend and we both laugh about the incident.

There are so many ways to enjoy X-wing. If you've had your fill of the officially licensed and published options, you can make up your own or borrow some from creative people on the internet. If you can't have fun dealing with power creep and meta lists, then change the way you play. If you can't have fun playing in any format, then play something else. If you're so put off by X-wing that you want to quit, I'll give you an address where you can mail your X-wing stuff as a donation to the fun of others.

I agree with this ^

Overall, I understand that there are more competitive lists. I like finding interesting ways to beat them. Will my list work in tournaments, probably not in the long run, but I don't go to many tournaments as I just don't currently have the time. Although I won't stop anyone from fielding a competitive list against me because if they really wanna beat me that bad, go for it. I'll make it as hard for you to beat me as I can. I thoroughly enjoy the jumpmaster as a ship and I don't think it's "breaking the game." One of my favorite ship builds in the game is a bumpmaster. There's still the overall feel of rock, paper, scissors to this game, which I like. Some rocks are bigger, some paper is thicker, and some scissors are sharper right now, but it will change again as the waves evolve this game, just like it has always has been.

Yeah, the Jumps are cheaper than they should be, but that's whiner fodder. Yeah, their large ship base dial shoulda never been given to such a weird 'unballanced' looking ship; and the turret shouldn't have a 360 arc as it would have massive blind spots as it tracks enemy ships towards the fuselage, but again, the mouses followers said to #$&@ with logic.

However, try to explain this: a named TIE Interceptor pilot doesn't have an EPT, but a generic Contracted Scout does, is that right?

main thing about the jumpmaster that bugs me is the dial. No large ship should be that maneuverable. It has THE best dial in the game, large ships are suppose to be a tax for the power they bring because being a large base is suppose to be a bad thing. but when you give them such an insane dial and broll it doesnt feel like it has a penalty for a large base at all.

The right turns and 2left sloop should have been red. Theres no way a ship that massive can rotate 180 on a dime and not feel inertia ripping it apart, and its asymmetrical design yields its amazing left turn but doesnt give a right turn penalty??

That being said though, i'd rather deal with them than the fatPWTs. Truth, a single jm5k is usually a 3die pwt but almost all of its shenanigans require its arc anyway. Dengar is nowhere near as mean if you can sidestep his front arc and he goes down easier than fathan/decimators. Course against a single ship he just 2sloops and has you anyway.

jm5k is so powerful its in virtually EVERY list, even casual play. I cant remember the last time i faced a scum player that didnt use a jm5k. New ships should be more powerful than old ships, otherwise whats the point in releasing new ones (except for the oddball that adds a completely different tactic, even if its not technically stronger it can change the mentality of the game), but the jm5k is too much.

im getting tired of facing dengar literally every match. Even if hes a lousy pick for what theyre doing, they still bring him.

this is true of almost every large ship that isnt holding poopy palpy. all big ships get ridiculous dials because ???

[or insert 25-point Scum ship here]

This right here being the problem. Scum doesn't have a lot of good options in the 25 point range because most of our small base ships aren't worth running. The N'dru there could do some good damage, but could just as easily melt before ever firing off the cluster missiles since it's a z95. Not nearly as good as a party bus, or fenn rau, or even zuckuss with 2 uboats like you can do now.

"Can't run the same list you can right now" and "still plenty competitive" aren't mutually exclusive concepts.

I agree there is power creep in this game, its kind of inevitable. However, my crackswarm wrecked both quad TLT and triple jumps. As long as each faction receives the same levels of creep, I'm happy. The x7 defender is the wave 9 culprit I feel, but my only real complaint is that we have to wait for the Arc and Protectorate to finally drop to be able to effectively counter it.

Edit: also, so far I personally haven't played a game where I didn't think I could still lose with these. I've flown 3 defenders, 2 with an ace, and even 2 with palpatine. Never felt anything like playing soontir fel (plus palp) vs mangler cannon dash rendar, that's a no lose scenario by the way especially if you've removed the other ship(s) of your opponent.

Listen man, if u aren't going to recognize the glaring power creep that jumpmaster introduced into the game then so be it. I clearly can't convince you.. but the numbers are there and if you understand anything about the game you would see it too. Its not about losing to the ship, or whatever lists people win and or lose to. Its about what you get for the point cost when you add a ship to a team. and its way cheaper to use a jumpmaster than most of the ships in this game.

I don't think the Jumpmaster introduced any power creep that wasn't already there. I don't think they are that overpowered.

well, not anymore

I did feel a bit dirty back in the r4 aggro days because it got a little silly to be able to re-roll protorps with chips on top of a super modded PWT on top of 4-lom (or zuckuss with manaroo running around)

hit that point in perception when, playing with Xizor manny and a scout, the scout was the last ship standing due to some wonderfully bull naked red dice from the phantom and equally bull Xizor greens

didn't matter, though, because r4 aggro jm5ks with 4-lom at range 1 will murder your whispers

and at that point, I had to exmaine the rationale behind a 35 point torp generic that could also slug it out with a 40+ point late game ship

going down to OCR4, however, is a huge deal. For one, plasmas with focus are slightly less effective than protorps with re-rolls. More importantly however, the stress they inflict greatly limits dial options, most importantly shutting off the ability to torp two consecutive rounds by executing a white sloop

that errata helped quite a bit, imo, even if they continue to be quite terrifying to this day

Outer Rim Smuggler 27 points -> 25 points -> possibly more play

Wild Space Fringer 30 points -> 27 points -> possibly more play

Contracted Scout 25 points -> 30 points

Problems solved.

This is so easy I can't believe FFG hasn't done it yet. Instead they gave us R3, lol.

Precedent exists. In IA they are handing out fixed cards as promos.

Omg!!! Always someone likes to cry out loud.. Just wait and the dust will settle for JumpMasters... So did TLT's...etc.. Espera!!!!!!

Contracted Scouts were costed " too aggressively" . They're a form of power creep.

They're changing the game, but they did not "ruin the game". I can tell it isn't ruined because I still have fun playing it, which is pretty much what games are for.

Saying that power creep is bad is technically correct. Designers should try to curb power creep where possible and keep it to the bare minimum. Saying "you should never have power creep" is like saying "communism should work". To which I'm like "Sure, but that's not reality".

Games like this have power creep, and that's the reality. They kind of have to. That's because it's not always easy to keep every single thing you put into the game in perfect balance with every other thing that already exists, and over time, even very, very small balancing errors (which are bound to happen) end up shaping the game in future years.

Competitive level players demand THE most efficient ships at all times. Let's call this ship, "Ship A" and say that it costs 20 points, and acknowledge that it is the most efficient ship in this fictional X-Wing universe. Later, FFG releases Ship B, which they wanted to be comparable to Ship A but different. Ship B has slight differences and FFG thought that they would merit a 2pt increase, and so Ship B is costed at 22pts.

Well, it turns out that Ship B would be correctly costed at 21 points, and that they're just a hair less efficient than Ship A, so Ship A remains dominant, and all players who wanted Ship B to be good are VERY angry. They fill the forums with their cries of outrage, all directed at FFG for being so inept. If you think that this is an absurd scenario, stop and consider that the 14pt Scyk (without title, as the PS2 generic) is only 1pt over costed and is widely considered to be hot, steaming trash.

Aware of the above mistake, FFG then makes plans to release Ship C. Ship C also has very slight differences when compared to the Ship A baseline, but mostly they feel that they are similar, but that Ship A is just a hair superior to Ship C. As a result, they release Ship C at 19pts. Oh no, they made a very slight error in their analysis again! It turns out that even though Ship A and Ship C are similar in many respects, their differences don't really impact their efficiency that much. Ship C is actually just as good as Ship A and has a real value of 20pts!! Good job, you just ruined the game through power creep.

Wait, what? How is the game ruined? It's only one ship and it's only one point. How could it possibly matter that much? Well, easy, when you combine this error into a 100pt squad, it can make a difference of as much as 5 points, and this 5 point difference in value is something that is typically noticed by the hyper competitive crowd. Now the slightly inefficient Ship B has been made "utter garbage" because it is WAY outclassed by an alternative option, and Ship A has been greatly marginalized. The part that "ruins the game" is that now whenever FFG has to design Ship D, the baseline that they're trying to match in the competitive landscape is Ship C, not Ship A. Ship C is the new standard for "good ship".

Now, when FFG designs Ship D, they have to be incredibly careful. If they make it weaker than Ship C (even by 1pt), it will sell poorly (that's okay, businesses don't care if their products sell poorly, right?), if Ship D is exactly balanced with Ship C, it continues the "power creep trend", and Ship A and Ship B are further marginalized. If you make Ship D even a hair more efficient than Ship C, even by accident, even to the relative value tune of 0.5pts, your streak of "ruining the game" continues. Now it becomes the baseline for all future waves in terms of what defines "a good ship". There's really no correct answer, unless you'd always correctly balanced ships to begin with, which is near impossible to do.

So now we've got a big problem, and that problem is that there's really no correct answer that will satisfy your players. So what do you as a designer do? Well, you try your best to balance the game as well as you can to the current competitive level, but if you have to make a judgement call (which of course they do) they err on the side of "good ship" vs "bad ship", and how can we blame them? A good ship will sell and then they'll be able to keep their business going. A "bad ship" will go the way of the G-1A, and will not be good for your game.

The problem is that the definition of good ship always evolves, even if you didn't mean it to, and this is a problem that by its nature must compound with time. That's just the way that competitive games work.

Scouts were definitely balanced too aggressively. They were a bit much in terms of power creep, a bit fast. Whoops. Oh well, there are still plenty of fun lists and plenty of other ships that have benefited from "power creep", and those can still see plenty of table time. As for your old favorites, FFG will sell you "power creep" type fixes later on, and then you can play those too. In the mean time, just try to enjoy yourself. After all, would you rather that the next 5 waves be nothing but G-1As and K-Fighters and TIE Punishers? 'Cause I'm not interested in that. I'll take the slow power creep, because at least that means the game changes from time to time.

Good times.

Actually, his point is that if you just wait another wave, then Contracted Scouts will probably not be such a big deal. People were going crazy over TLT's and how they broke the game. How it was power creep. How it took no skill. How it destroyed the game that people loved. People went nuts over it. In just a short while you didn't see TLT lists anymore. I think his point is that you just need to wait a bit and it will sort out.

Yeah, but that IS power creep.

TLTs didn't go away because something came along that rebalanced TLTs. TLTs went away because FFG released something even more powerful, and now powergamers play that instead.

I have to agree with the OP, X-Wings need a cool buff of some kind in order to be competitive.

jm5k is so powerful its in virtually EVERY list, even casual play. I cant remember the last time i faced a scum player that didnt use a jm5k.

im getting tired of facing dengar literally every match. Even if hes a lousy pick for what theyre doing, they still bring him.

Well, that is probably more a problem with list building creativity. If you are actually playing casual, temp-ban the ship to force people out of their box.

If Scum players whine it's unfair, temp-ban one thing that is Imperial and one thing that is Rebel as well.

I've played my JM5K twice just to see what the fuss was all about, then went back to having fun trying to make Scyks work. I play games like this to see if I can make things work, not to be told online what the best option is and then mind-numbingly play the Victory List.

Who's still having problems against triple jumps? Just fly better dude.

jm5k is so powerful its in virtually EVERY list, even casual play. I cant remember the last time i faced a scum player that didnt use a jm5k.

im getting tired of facing dengar literally every match. Even if hes a lousy pick for what theyre doing, they still bring him.

Well, that is probably more a problem with list building creativity. If you are actually playing casual, temp-ban the ship to force people out of their box.

If Scum players whine it's unfair, temp-ban one thing that is Imperial and one thing that is Rebel as well.

I've played my JM5K twice just to see what the fuss was all about, then went back to having fun trying to make Scyks work. I play games like this to see if I can make things work, not to be told online what the best option is and then mind-numbingly play the Victory List.

easier to just spitefully counter-list in casual

if you're not running up in a tournie scene with the threat of imperial palpatine leering down on you, it's very easy to counter-build and steamroll jm5ks

all you need is lots of damage at PS > 3. Crackswarm is the perfect example of this

and then you mercilessly crush the casual meta until people learn not to bring the same **** thing over and over again

Hell, I'm already preparing to do this **** if I see Hotr giving people the wrong idea about fat PWTs being okay again

Jumpmasters did not break The Game. But they can break some games.

It's mostly our fault though. We said we wanted generic large based ships that didn't suck. We said we wanted munitions that were worth using.

Maybe we were wrong to want these things.

We did not want to have the 2 combined. Its totally stupid that a exploration vessel is so much better than all the dedicated ordnance carriers (bombers and sone of the fighters).

Yeah, the Jumps are cheaper than they should be, but that's whiner fodder. Yeah, their large ship base dial shoulda never been given to such a weird 'unballanced' looking ship; and the turret shouldn't have a 360 arc as it would have massive blind spots as it tracks enemy ships towards the fuselage, but again, the mouses followers said to #$&@ with logic.

However, try to explain this: a named TIE Interceptor pilot doesn't have an EPT, but a generic Contracted Scout does, is that right?

There are plenty of named pilots without EPTs. Being unique isn't a guarantee. And there's plenty of generics with EPTs, going all the way back to the also ps3 green squadron a-wing in wave 2

I agree there is power creep in this game, its kind of inevitable. However, my crackswarm wrecked both quad TLT and triple jumps. As long as each faction receives the same levels of creep, I'm happy. The x7 defender is the wave 9 culprit I feel, but my only real complaint is that we have to wait for the Arc and Protectorate to finally drop to be able to effectively counter it.

X7 defenders have no glaring weakness. The epitome of "good enough". They can't be as offensive as /D's or Sf's (fcs sf's or double tap D's). If you get stress on an x7 it is reduced to rolling naked red dice untill it can go in a straight line (or bank for an extra point). The new most used move on the defender dial is actually the 3 turn however, which is white. The k gets abused into simple predictabillity and the turn can maintain targets that the 4k cant (vice versa of course). If anything it's a well balanced ship (and then you add bonkers pilot abilities -> Vessery and Ryad say hi!). The generics are among the best generics in the game, the middle named pilots are among the best named pilots in the game, however none of them are over the top broken (on their own).

Edit: also, so far I personally haven't played a game where I didn't think I could still lose with these. I've flown 3 defenders, 2 with an ace, and even 2 with palpatine. Never felt anything like playing soontir fel (plus palp) vs mangler cannon dash rendar, that's a no lose scenario by the way especially if you've removed the other ship(s) of your opponent.

I disagree that x7s are less offensive than (non-vessery) TIE/Ds. Vess is the obvious exception since he can get TL for both attacks, but otherwise you're either not gettnig to modify both shots, or your spending even more on EPTs like predator to let you do so. Meanwhile, pairing ryad with PTL and vessery means that instead of having 1 modifier for 2 attacks, you get 2 modifiers for the one attack you actually have (and I usually use juke on vessery which adds more potential damage).

jm5k is so powerful its in virtually EVERY list, even casual play. I cant remember the last time i faced a scum player that didnt use a jm5k.

im getting tired of facing dengar literally every match. Even if hes a lousy pick for what theyre doing, they still bring him.

Well, that is probably more a problem with list building creativity. If you are actually playing casual, temp-ban the ship to force people out of their box.

If Scum players whine it's unfair, temp-ban one thing that is Imperial and one thing that is Rebel as well.

I've played my JM5K twice just to see what the fuss was all about, then went back to having fun trying to make Scyks work. I play games like this to see if I can make things work, not to be told online what the best option is and then mind-numbingly play the Victory List.

easier to just spitefully counter-list in casual

if you're not running up in a tournie scene with the threat of imperial palpatine leering down on you, it's very easy to counter-build and steamroll jm5ks

all you need is lots of damage at PS > 3. Crackswarm is the perfect example of this

and then you mercilessly crush the casual meta until people learn not to bring the same **** thing over and over again

Hell, I'm already preparing to do this **** if I see Hotr giving people the wrong idea about fat PWTs being okay again

jm5k is so powerful its in virtually EVERY list, even casual play. I cant remember the last time i faced a scum player that didnt use a jm5k.

im getting tired of facing dengar literally every match. Even if hes a lousy pick for what theyre doing, they still bring him.

Well, that is probably more a problem with list building creativity. If you are actually playing casual, temp-ban the ship to force people out of their box.

If Scum players whine it's unfair, temp-ban one thing that is Imperial and one thing that is Rebel as well.

I've played my JM5K twice just to see what the fuss was all about, then went back to having fun trying to make Scyks work. I play games like this to see if I can make things work, not to be told online what the best option is and then mind-numbingly play the Victory List.

easier to just spitefully counter-list in casual

if you're not running up in a tournie scene with the threat of imperial palpatine leering down on you, it's very easy to counter-build and steamroll jm5ks

all you need is lots of damage at PS > 3. Crackswarm is the perfect example of this

and then you mercilessly crush the casual meta until people learn not to bring the same **** thing over and over again

Hell, I'm already preparing to do this **** if I see Hotr giving people the wrong idea about fat PWTs being okay again

I doubt the games are very casual once they reach the point of spiteful. I also wouldn't be suggesting to people that they should be counter-listing against their local gaming group. I've seen local guys caught trying it before, and the reaction from opponents and other surrounding players is generally a bad one. You probably weren't being serious, but I really don't want the X-wing community to start playing that way regardless of your opponents list. If you've built a squad in advance, before knowing for certain what your opponent is bringing, fair enough. However, changing your list after your opponent has already set up should be frowned upon.

Well, he probably was serious, but he does have a point. If everyone who doesn't fly JM5Ks builds a list with them in mind, it won't be fun to play JM5K for long. . .but now everyone's not having fun.

Yeah, but that IS power creep.

TLTs didn't go away because something came along that rebalanced TLTs. TLTs went away because FFG released something even more powerful, and now powergamers play that instead.

Not unless you consider "effective ordnance" to be power creep. TLTs are still as powerful as ever. (They were never broken.) They're just countered by something in the current meta.

TLTs didn't (mostly) disappear because of JumpMasters, they disappeared because of effective ordnance. If JM5Ks had been more properly costed, TLTs would still have struggled, because people would have developed another way -- less powerful, but still effective -- of delivering ordnance at PS 3 or higher, and TLTs would still have taken a huge hit. I'll grant that in a non-JM5K platform alpha strike meta, TLTs would have bounced back more after than initial hit, though.

(For the record, I do think JM5Ks are broken. (And, for calibration's sake, I also think Zuckuss crew is broken, but I do not think Palpatine is broken.) I even think they are power-creep. I just don't think it's JM5K power-creep that drove TLTs into obscurity.)

jm5k is so powerful its in virtually EVERY list, even casual play. I cant remember the last time i faced a scum player that didnt use a jm5k.

im getting tired of facing dengar literally every match. Even if hes a lousy pick for what theyre doing, they still bring him.

Well, that is probably more a problem with list building creativity. If you are actually playing casual, temp-ban the ship to force people out of their box.

If Scum players whine it's unfair, temp-ban one thing that is Imperial and one thing that is Rebel as well.

I've played my JM5K twice just to see what the fuss was all about, then went back to having fun trying to make Scyks work. I play games like this to see if I can make things work, not to be told online what the best option is and then mind-numbingly play the Victory List.

easier to just spitefully counter-list in casual

if you're not running up in a tournie scene with the threat of imperial palpatine leering down on you, it's very easy to counter-build and steamroll jm5ks

all you need is lots of damage at PS > 3. Crackswarm is the perfect example of this

and then you mercilessly crush the casual meta until people learn not to bring the same **** thing over and over again

Hell, I'm already preparing to do this **** if I see Hotr giving people the wrong idea about fat PWTs being okay again

I doubt the games are very casual once they reach the point of spiteful. I also wouldn't be suggesting to people that they should be counter-listing against their local gaming group. I've seen local guys caught trying it before, and the reaction from opponents and other surrounding players is generally a bad one. You probably weren't being serious, but I really don't want the X-wing community to start playing that way regardless of your opponents list. If you've built a squad in advance, before knowing for certain what your opponent is bringing, fair enough. However, changing your list after your opponent has already set up should be frowned upon.

Well, he probably was serious, but he does have a point. If everyone who doesn't fly JM5Ks builds a list with them in mind, it won't be fun to play JM5K for long. . .but now everyone's not having fun.

jm5k is so powerful its in virtually EVERY list, even casual play. I cant remember the last time i faced a scum player that didnt use a jm5k.

im getting tired of facing dengar literally every match. Even if hes a lousy pick for what theyre doing, they still bring him.

Well, that is probably more a problem with list building creativity. If you are actually playing casual, temp-ban the ship to force people out of their box.

If Scum players whine it's unfair, temp-ban one thing that is Imperial and one thing that is Rebel as well.

I've played my JM5K twice just to see what the fuss was all about, then went back to having fun trying to make Scyks work. I play games like this to see if I can make things work, not to be told online what the best option is and then mind-numbingly play the Victory List.

easier to just spitefully counter-list in casual

if you're not running up in a tournie scene with the threat of imperial palpatine leering down on you, it's very easy to counter-build and steamroll jm5ks

all you need is lots of damage at PS > 3. Crackswarm is the perfect example of this

and then you mercilessly crush the casual meta until people learn not to bring the same **** thing over and over again

Hell, I'm already preparing to do this **** if I see Hotr giving people the wrong idea about fat PWTs being okay again

I doubt the games are very casual once they reach the point of spiteful. I also wouldn't be suggesting to people that they should be counter-listing against their local gaming group. I've seen local guys caught trying it before, and the reaction from opponents and other surrounding players is generally a bad one. You probably weren't being serious, but I really don't want the X-wing community to start playing that way regardless of your opponents list. If you've built a squad in advance, before knowing for certain what your opponent is bringing, fair enough. However, changing your list after your opponent has already set up should be frowned upon.

Well, he probably was serious, but he does have a point. If everyone who doesn't fly JM5Ks builds a list with them in mind, it won't be fun to play JM5K for long. . .but now everyone's not having fun.

I liked the idea of banning ships in casual play. It accomplishes the same goal as counter-listing, while keeping a fair and enjoyable gaming experience.

Enjoyable if the banned ship wasn't something you want to play..

totally agree, TLT's ARE killing this game.

Having trouble following the acronym. How do you go from "Soontir Fel" to TLT?

jm5k is so powerful its in virtually EVERY list, even casual play. I cant remember the last time i faced a scum player that didnt use a jm5k.

im getting tired of facing dengar literally every match. Even if hes a lousy pick for what theyre doing, they still bring him.

Well, that is probably more a problem with list building creativity. If you are actually playing casual, temp-ban the ship to force people out of their box.

If Scum players whine it's unfair, temp-ban one thing that is Imperial and one thing that is Rebel as well.

I've played my JM5K twice just to see what the fuss was all about, then went back to having fun trying to make Scyks work. I play games like this to see if I can make things work, not to be told online what the best option is and then mind-numbingly play the Victory List.

easier to just spitefully counter-list in casual

if you're not running up in a tournie scene with the threat of imperial palpatine leering down on you, it's very easy to counter-build and steamroll jm5ks

all you need is lots of damage at PS > 3. Crackswarm is the perfect example of this

and then you mercilessly crush the casual meta until people learn not to bring the same **** thing over and over again

Hell, I'm already preparing to do this **** if I see Hotr giving people the wrong idea about fat PWTs being okay again

I doubt the games are very casual once they reach the point of spiteful. I also wouldn't be suggesting to people that they should be counter-listing against their local gaming group. I've seen local guys caught trying it before, and the reaction from opponents and other surrounding players is generally a bad one. You probably weren't being serious, but I really don't want the X-wing community to start playing that way regardless of your opponents list. If you've built a squad in advance, before knowing for certain what your opponent is bringing, fair enough. However, changing your list after your opponent has already set up should be frowned upon.

Well, he probably was serious, but he does have a point. If everyone who doesn't fly JM5Ks builds a list with them in mind, it won't be fun to play JM5K for long. . .but now everyone's not having fun.

I liked the idea of banning ships in casual play. It accomplishes the same goal as counter-listing, while keeping a fair and enjoyable gaming experience.

Enjoyable if the banned ship wasn't something you want to play..