Jumpmasters did not break The Game. But they can break some games.

It's mostly our fault though. We said we wanted generic large based ships that didn't suck. We said we wanted munitions that were worth using.

Maybe we were wrong to want these things.

So what is it in Wave 9?

Kad Solus, cause talon rolls are rad when they give you focus.

Somehow I doubt a PS6 Fang with PTL antisynergy is the gamebreaker of Wave 9.

Contracted Scout should have never had the EPT. It created this whole mess due to too many synergies on a cheap base. Problem solved.

In one.

And I'll never understand why.

Same goes for the other upgrades. It's like they looked at ORS or WSF and went too far in the other direction.

Hopefully they'll learn. Hopefully.

Meanwhile I'm sitting here waiting for an X-Wing fix. In a game. Called X-Wing.

"This thing I don't like is OP, and if you don't agree you are just blind. It couldn't be that you have a different view... you are just wrong because I know everything."

Ive been playing since wave 2, and i can tell you that every wave something tops the meta. Every wave people complain about how that thing is killing the game. Every. Single. Wave.

Simmer down. It's not as bad as you think.

And they were right. Every. Single. Wave

It is as bad. you just choose to ignore it.

Its why the jumpmaster comes out with 4 points worth of all those bonuses. Because every single wave power creep has been introduced until now you have the jumpmaster vs the xwing ridiculousness in the OP.

This is the end result. And its going to happen next wave too, and people are going to see it and say the same thing... or, the ships will be designated as trash and never used because why would you? you have the jumpmaster.

So what is it in Wave 9?

Kad Solus, cause talon rolls are rad when they give you focus.

Somehow I doubt a PS6 Fang with PTL antisynergy is the gamebreaker of Wave 9.

"This thing I don't like is OP, and if you don't agree you are just blind. It couldn't be that you have a different view... you are just wrong because I know everything."

Ive been playing since wave 2, and i can tell you that every wave something tops the meta. Every wave people complain about how that thing is killing the game. Every. Single. Wave.

Simmer down. It's not as bad as you think.

And they were right. Every. Single. Wave

It is as bad. you just choose to ignore it.

Its why the jumpmaster comes out with 4 points worth of all those bonuses. Because every single wave power creep has been introduced until now you have the jumpmaster vs the xwing ridiculousness in the OP.

This is the end result. And its going to happen next wave too, and people are going to see it and say the same thing... or, the ships will be designated as trash and never used because why would you? you have the jumpmaster.

They are wrong. Every. Single. Wave. And I'll tell you how I know: the jump master will be everywhere at worlds. Except in the winners circle. I guarantee it. But hey, I get you won't even try to pay attention to anyone that doesn't agree with you, and I don't feel like beating my head against a wall, so... have fun crying about the game. It won't change anything. Peace.

Just because people can design teams specifically to handle the jumpmaster doesn't change the fact jumpmaster power creeped the state of the game. Just like the interceptor title did.

cmon son.

Listen man, if u aren't going to recognize the glaring power creep that jumpmaster introduced into the game then so be it. I clearly can't convince you.. but the numbers are there and if you understand anything about the game you would see it too. Its not about losing to the ship, or whatever lists people win and or lose to. Its about what you get for the point cost when you add a ship to a team. and its way cheaper to use a jumpmaster than most of the ships in this game.

I don't think the Jumpmaster introduced any power creep that wasn't already there. I don't think they are that overpowered.

So what is it in Wave 9?

Unless there is something hidden in the shadowcaster that I'm not seeing, I don't think anything in wave 9 is broken. Quickdraw is a wonderful anti-ace and Imperial alpha strike tool. The SF is simply a solid ship (it has weaknesses unlike the king of general purpose ships (tie defender)), it has better offensive output than your typical defender just by nature of fire control system (of course it loses on defense for this). The Arc is a workhorse of a ship that performs solidly when built twoards a set goal (and is a big step forward in Rebellion ship design, even if it didn't look like it in theory). The protectorate is a solid ship, but as an Empire fan-boy I'll keep my tie interceptor, thanks (it really misses evade, but a carbon copy of the interceptor would've been boring). The shadowcaster seems to be in that just right large ship category; it isn't super ridiculous cost effective (jumpmaster), but it also isn't ridiculously worthless (Outer Rim Smuggler). The control mechanics it brings for scum are a welcome addition to the game, filling another gap in scums play book. All in all a very healthy wave in my opinion of course.

I think you're all missing the point: Scum is a larger problem as a whole. The faction has rubber-banded like crazy (because we b'ed and moaned about it being irrelevant for so long) and we now have these under-costed ships with broken upgrade slot combinations and under-costed broken crew, et al.

Any 6-year old could look at every large-based ship and say, "Why the heck would I pick anything but the JM5K? Oh, I can fit THREE into a list?"

Are you effing kidding me, Zuckuss at 1 point ? The Devs who OKAY'd that should get a stern-a-talking-to about balance.

And here's a genuine thematic question that I hope has a real answer: IF BMST are "black market" then wouldn't the establishment, i.e. the Empire, have access to the legit version? I.e. WHY ARE IMPERIALS THE ONLY FACTION THAT CAN'T USE THEM?

This kind of stuff bores me to tears. I have to admit there was no way I could read 3 pages of it. I saw a Tie swarm take down 3 U-Boats in just a few turns. Feel free to go play another game but FFG does a fine job. Everyone makes mistakes. I cannot express enough my sorrow for your loss of hope.

Listen man, if u aren't going to recognize the glaring power creep that jumpmaster introduced into the game then so be it. I clearly can't convince you.. but the numbers are there and if you understand anything about the game you would see it too. Its not about losing to the ship, or whatever lists people win and or lose to. Its about what you get for the point cost when you add a ship to a team. and its way cheaper to use a jumpmaster than most of the ships in this game.

I don't think the Jumpmaster introduced any power creep that wasn't already there. I don't think they are that overpowered.

Yeah, you're right - SIX heavily modified torpedoes wasn't a creep at all - it was a blow-out the other direction.

Listen man, if u aren't going to recognize the glaring power creep that jumpmaster introduced into the game then so be it. I clearly can't convince you.. but the numbers are there and if you understand anything about the game you would see it too. Its not about losing to the ship, or whatever lists people win and or lose to. Its about what you get for the point cost when you add a ship to a team. and its way cheaper to use a jumpmaster than most of the ships in this game.

I don't think the Jumpmaster introduced any power creep that wasn't already there. I don't think they are that overpowered.

what would u consider the jumpmaster equivalent before the jumpmaster?

This kind of stuff bores me to tears. I have to admit there was no way I could read 3 pages of it. I saw a Tie swarm take down 3 U-Boats in just a few turns. Feel free to go play another game but FFG does a fine job. Everyone makes mistakes. I cannot express enough my sorrow for your loss of hope.

ive explained like 4 times why these kinds of examples mean nothing. but you already admitted to not reading so i get it. but it shows the glaring misconception of 'oh its fine' attitude this forum has lol

Jumpmasters did not break The Game. But they can break some games.

It's mostly our fault though. We said we wanted generic large based ships that didn't suck. We said we wanted munitions that were worth using.

Maybe we were wrong to want these things.

The Jumpmaster's problem is that it's a jousting PWT.

In an engagement between two ships the jouster is the ship that has the advantage in exchange fire: if both ships maintain mutual shots the jouster will probably win. The other ship is then by definition the arc-dodger: to beat the jouster it has to leverage any maneuverability advantage it has to get shots on the jouster where the jouster can't return fire.

The Lambda is one of the best designs in the game: it has a glaring exploitable weakness you have to cover but if you do it gives you incredible bang for your buck. You get 3/1/5/5 for 21 points and some excellent upgrade slots.

The PWT follows the inverse philosophy: it cannot be dodged . As a result, the PWTs were priced to make them arc-dodgers: they get a fair bit less firepower for their cost so that they'll lose a joust as defined above. When Wave 4 and 5 allowed PWTs to be stacked with so many defensive upgrades that they started to become the jouster people got very unhappy: they were forced to arc-dodge a ship that's fundamentally impossible to arc-dodge to win. Personally I think PWTs are one of the poorest design decisions in the game with the possible exception of the K-wing: it baffles me why they designed the Jumpmaster as one in the first place given what came the wave after.

The Jumpmaster's ability to bring together a perfect storm of muntions upgrades to give it a hugely powered arced attack allows it to turn itself into the jouster: the enemy list takes so much damage that mutual fire exchange thereafter favours the Jumpmaster and it becomes a PWT Jouster. Dodging those torpedoes isn't a realistic proposition for anything but the slipperiest of ships because the Jumpmaster also has an insanely good dial complete with a white segnor.

The Jumpmaster is the opposite of the Lambda: a ship with no exploitable weakness but a higher price to compensate. This is very dangerous design: with little to no counterplay you're completely reliant on the price for balance. FFG screwed up on the price and with no weakness here we are.

Every ship introduced into the game from now on every player will say to themselves (should i use this? or should i just use the jumpmaster).

I completely disagree but that might be reflective of the people I play with. They (we) always want to try out new stuff and people will often roll out old favorites (Fat Han made a showing last week, I've missed him) but unless you're playing with a single minded "must play the same list" and can't figure out how to counter it, I truly and fundamentally disagree with what you are saying.

This is a problem people lol.

This is where I also totally disagree with you. Perhaps in your local area, but not a universal statement.

Every ship introduced into the game from now on every player will say to themselves (should i use this? or should i just use the jumpmaster).

I completely disagree but that might be reflective of the people I play with. They (we) always want to try out new stuff and people will often roll out old favorites (Fat Han made a showing last week, I've missed him) but unless you're playing with a single minded "must play the same list" and can't figure out how to counter it, I truly and fundamentally disagree with what you are saying.

Thats a more casual style of play, which is fine. If you are being competitive you are going to want to get the best bang for your buck. Or go for some kind of counter-anti popular lists build.

It comes down to team design, like deck design in card games. To use card games as an example, there are slots at mana costs that you must place cards in. the 1 mana, 2 mana, 3 mana slots etc. If one card is unanimously the best card for any given slot, you take that card unless you are going for some combo/synergy style.

So for xwing, the same situation applies. Lets say you want to build a protectorate team. So you have your 2 protectorate aces and now you have 35 points left. Well what do you do? well jumpmaster of course. what else? its a niche slot that is always filled and wont have anything better.

Jumpmasters, at least Scouts are a problem for various reasons that have been discussed to death, but don't worry, FFG's "fix" will be to invent a new, worse problem in Wave 10 or 11. Wave 9 must be considered a failure because there's no obviously "broken" combo in it (that has yet been discovered at least) and thus will not shift the dial much, if any.

My solution is, since I play this game for fun, is to avoid competitive events until 3 Scouts has been nerfed or replaced by some other option. It's not that they are unbeatable, it's that they are not fun, obvious, every game plays basically the same, require little to no skill to run, and are the worst example of non-creative 'net-think in list design, and yet can still be competitive against the vast majority of the field. I would rather not play those people who have nothing better to do than run out the same stupid list as everyone else.

Listen man, if u aren't going to recognize the glaring power creep that jumpmaster introduced into the game then so be it. I clearly can't convince you.. but the numbers are there and if you understand anything about the game you would see it too. Its not about losing to the ship, or whatever lists people win and or lose to. Its about what you get for the point cost when you add a ship to a team. and its way cheaper to use a jumpmaster than most of the ships in this game.

I don't think the Jumpmaster introduced any power creep that wasn't already there. I don't think they are that overpowered.

Yeah, you're right - SIX heavily modified torpedoes wasn't a creep at all - it was a blow-out the other direction.

Always better than 4 TLT.

The game was near to be broked, at that point. We had few month of fear with 3 U, then it comes 2U+PartyBus, and then the Dengaroo list.

What we had before? 4Y, followed by 4Y. And then? Look: more Y.

Meh....I love this meta, more than the past. You can see Protectorates, Uboat, SCYKS! Shadowcasters etc. Considering just the scum faction.

Sigh. Just when I thought it wouldn't happen again, the sky is falling ...

You must be typing this while sitting in Jacksonville, FL., you know, where the sky REALLY is falling ...

I'm not really saying the sky is falling. im pointing out the glaring power creep issues in this game, and why when people make threads that say 'fix this ship' theres some serious merit behind it. The power levels of new ships are so far beyond old ones yet no one wants to seem to acknowledge this.

That is why we old school cool-ass war-dogs stay in the game with friends and family.

When you can not make little adjustments to these games and you go among gamers you hardly know it is going to be an issue; these little mistakes all game companies make occasionally can ruin all the fun if you are not in a great play environment.

In a game that uses a point system to even out squads, this is definitely a problem. If you can't see and/or understand that.. then nothing short of getting a better knowledge of game design and balance is going to fix that. So all i can really say is.. educate yourself.

Every point in a squad has a 'value' associated with it. The points on a rookie x-wing are significantly less value per point than a jumpmaster. THIS IS A PROBLEM with a 100 point cap for every team. the point to value ratio should be equal for every ship but its not. This is a balance problem at its core.

Yes this game has counters to builds

Yes this game is affected by player skill

Yes this game is affected by dice rolls.

None of that changes the fact the per point value on some ships is less than others. What it does do, is allows people to randomly throw out 'oh TLT won X tourney so its all ok right?'. Wrong. There are so many variables that can cause people to win regardless of the glaring imbalance the game has.

The rookie x-wing hasn't been a worthwhile ship pretty much since wave 1, outside of specific pilots taken for their pilot abilities, not because they were in a good ship.. And even in wave 1 they were overcosted, and the rookie shouldn't have cost more than 20 points max. You can't compare new good ships against old overcosted ships that weren't flown in the first place.

And large base ships have always gotten a point discount compared to small base.

one example in a game that can be heavily altered by skill and chance doesn't mean anything and just shows your lack of understanding on variance and balance. Just because one good player made it work for him doesn't mean the cost of the jump master isn't broken. One player who won a tournament should be considered the exception, not the rule. Hes the top of the top.

One giant misconception you all seem to be having is that im saying the ship broke the game as in they can;t be beat. Thats not what im saying at all. I'm saying the power creep slope just got really, really steep from the jumpmaster. It threw all original balance out the window, and now jump master is the new standard. Before it was soontir. Now its the jump. Every ship introduced into the game from now on every player will say to themselves (should i use this? or should i just use the jumpmaster).

This is a problem people lol.

Yes, player skill matters. But are you really gonna try to tell me that in the top 4 and final round of a *national* that the quad TLT player was so much better than either of the opponents in question to make up for tlts having been "smashed out entirely".

And I was making no comment ont he jumpmaster here. i was talking about the tlt that was being called not viable. A lot of pepole are picking up tlt y-wings again to fly alongside asajj as well. Just because it falls out of favor for a single wave doesn't mean something is completely dead and can't or won't see play again.

And the jumpmaster alone isn't the "problem". It's a combination of jumpmaster + palp aces. Plenty of lists can beat jumpmasters. The problem is the majority of the ones designed to do so fail to palp aces. Plenty of other lists can beat palp aces, but fail to jumpmasters. If it was just one or the other list int he meta, there wouldn't be any problem.

ARC isn't broken but its the power creep fix for rebels. shadowcaster has so far been proven to be underwhelming because... you guessed it, jumpmaster, and protectorate is the power creep of khrix and m3 but still probably wont see a whole lot of play because... you guessed it, jumpmaster.

The protectorate is not "power creep" of the kihraxz and m3a. Those 2 ships were overcosted and underwhelming as soon as they released. They've never been seen regularly competitively, and barely been seen at all. If you're going to accuse things of being power creep, it has to be compared to currently competitive ships, not currently uncompetitive ones. Especially since the protectorate starfighter generics are *overcosted* by about a point, even compared to the similar kihraxz pilots. Even more so when you look at the fact that the kihraxz is ALSO overcosted. And I'll absolutely fly named protectorates over uboats. Fenn rau is a beast. Shadowcaster has actually been quite good so far as well. You're the first person I've seen call it underwhelming. I'll happily fly my ketsu/latts list against dengaroo.

I think you're all missing the point: Scum is a larger problem as a whole. The faction has rubber-banded like crazy (because we b'ed and moaned about it being irrelevant for so long) and we now have these under-costed ships with broken upgrade slot combinations and under-costed broken crew, et al.

Any 6-year old could look at every large-based ship and say, "Why the heck would I pick anything but the JM5K? Oh, I can fit THREE into a list?"

Are you effing kidding me, Zuckuss at 1 point ? The Devs who OKAY'd that should get a stern-a-talking-to about balance.

And here's a genuine thematic question that I hope has a real answer: IF BMST are "black market" then wouldn't the establishment, i.e. the Empire, have access to the legit version? I.e. WHY ARE IMPERIALS THE ONLY FACTION THAT CAN'T USE THEM?

Zuckuss at 1 point is only a "problem" on dengaroo. And even if zuckuss was more points, so what? You only "need" like 92 points in dengaroo, then the rest generally gets spent on torpedoes or something. They make zuckuss 3 points instead? Ok, I just lose a different unneeded upgrade. The only other place it truly sees really common use is on the party bus, which still does a ton of damage, but if you get behind it, it can't do anything about it. And it's a 1 agility ship so it can melt rather quickly. Anywhere else, the massive stress you end up with balances out the benefit you get.

Every wave people complain about how that thing is killing the game. Every. Single. Wave.

And they were right. Every. Single. Wave.

And its going to happen next wave too, and people are going to see it and say the same thing.

So every single wave the game is brutally killed but, somehow, never dies...

There are two basic theories about this:

A) The XWing game is, actually, an arcane elder god, and is waiting for the correct star alineation to take over the world of men.

B) The wordings "X killed this game" or "Y broke this game" are... well, exaggerations.

Just assume that power creep happens. In a comercial game that is viable by waves of new ships, a little power creep is a business necessity.

Balance is good for the game, but if FFG wants to keep making money, and so, new ships, a little power creep is inevitable.

I think that the scout would still be a very good ship without EPT. But betwen "Jumpmaster is a good example of a little power creep" and "Jumpmaster broke this game" there is much ground.

Using the second instead of the first made your post sounds alarmist.

I don't think jumpmaster, Zuckuss Crew, Palpatine, x7 title, TLT, C3PO crew, R2D2 droid, R5P9 droid, fat turrets... were perfectly well balanced.

But I think neither of those turn the game unplayable or unenjoyable for the vast mayority of the players.

Contracted Scout should have never had the EPT. It created this whole mess due to too many synergies on a cheap base. Problem solved.

Problem solved? Only the scout, not the jumpmaster.

The Deengaro problem is still the same, and Deengaro if fairly more powefull than the 3 contracted scouts.

Maybe the scouts shouldn't have EPT slot.

Maybe zuckuss and agromech shouldn't work if the ship have previous stress.

Maybe de X7 title should be 0 points and give a free evade action, not a token.

Maybe the Emperor should be Epic only.

Maybe the TLT should cost a focus to shoot, or/and hace a mobile firing arc.

Maybe all the turrets should have mobile firing arc.

Maybe regenerating should let the ship without attacks the next round.

Maybe Soontir should cost 2 more points.

Or maybe none of those "power creeps" really dont kill, broke or maul the game. And the Xwing dominating the world wargame scene, even over the theoretically invincible WH40k, is a good proof of that.

I agree there is power creep in this game, its kind of inevitable. However, my crackswarm wrecked both quad TLT and triple jumps. As long as each faction receives the same levels of creep, I'm happy. The x7 defender is the wave 9 culprit I feel, but my only real complaint is that we have to wait for the Arc and Protectorate to finally drop to be able to effectively counter it.

"Jumpmaster broke this game" Blame the ship if you like. A game is broken by the behaviors of participants

What is actually broken? In game stores, man caves and dining rooms people are having fun playing X-wing in the post-Jumpmaster world. They are having fun because their behaviors and attitudes support fun gameplay. So if you're not having fun, ask yourself, "What is broken?" Blame the ship if you like.

The first time I faced a Jumpmaster was in competition; my squad disintegrated in two rounds of combat. Blame the ship if you like. (I don't.) I congratualted my opponent; we recorded scores and had a rematch because there was still over an hour left in the round. My opponent is still a friend and we both laugh about the incident.

There are so many ways to enjoy X-wing. If you've had your fill of the officially licensed and published options, you can make up your own or borrow some from creative people on the internet. If you can't have fun dealing with power creep and meta lists, then change the way you play. If you can't have fun playing in any format, then play something else. If you're so put off by X-wing that you want to quit, I'll give you an address where you can mail your X-wing stuff as a donation to the fun of others.

totally agree, TLT's ARE killing this game.

Having trouble following the acronym. How do you go from "Soontir Fel" to TLT?

Outer Rim Smuggler 27 points -> 25 points -> possibly more play

Wild Space Fringer 30 points -> 27 points -> possibly more play

Contracted Scout 25 points -> 30 points

Problems solved.

At 30 points the scout would b ejust as useless as the WSF and ORS are now

Scout (30)

+ Plasma Torpedoes (3)

+ Extra Munitions (2)

+ Deadeye (1)

+ Overclocked Agro (1)

Scout (30)

+ Proton Torpedoes (4)

+ Extra Munitions (2)

+ Deadeye (1)

+ Overclocked Agro (1)

N'Dru (17)

+ Lone Wolf (2)

+ Cluster Missiles (4)

+ Guidance Chimps (0)

+ Glitterstim (2)

[or insert 25-point Scum ship here]

Still seems plenty competitive to me. *shrug*