If wave 8 being better than wave 1 in general is power creep, I don't want it to stop.

With the caveat that FFG won't leave wave 1 behind, they buff stuff all the time. Having been playing X wing since pre-wave 7 I've seen the TLT and the Jumpmaster get hailed as broken - now guess what, we don't really see TLT as much but it's still there, and people don't complain about it despite there being no nerf. That is already happening to jumpmasters. Players have learnt how to play against them and stopped using things that are super-weak to jumpmasters like B wings (as if anyone used them already) and rebel regen in general.

I thought this topic had died down to be honest but clearly people are still in rage mode over jumpmasters. It's better than crappy ships from old waves!!!! Must be broken!!!!

I thought this topic had died down to be honest but clearly people are still in rage mode over jumpmasters. It's better than crappy ships from old waves!!!! Must be broken!!!!

Seems fitting that "Rage" comes in the same expansion.

Apparently my use of the quote feature sucks... Guess I'm just a scrub..

I thought this topic had died down to be honest but clearly people are still in rage mode over jumpmasters. It's better than crappy ships from old waves!!!! Must be broken!!!!

In a game that uses a point system to even out squads, this is definitely a problem. If you can't see and/or understand that.. then nothing short of getting a better knowledge of game design and balance is going to fix that. So all i can really say is.. educate yourself.

Every point in a squad has a 'value' associated with it. The points on a rookie x-wing are significantly less value per point than a jumpmaster. THIS IS A PROBLEM with a 100 point cap for every team. the point to value ratio should be equal for every ship but its not. This is a balance problem at its core.

Yes this game has counters to builds

Yes this game is affected by player skill

Yes this game is affected by dice rolls.

None of that changes the fact the per point value on some ships is less than others. What it does do, is allows people to randomly throw out 'oh TLT won X tourney so its all ok right?'. Wrong. There are so many variables that can cause people to win regardless of the glaring imbalance the game has.

I agree that the generic scout shouldn't have had an EPT, other than that it isn't that badly balanced. A 2 dice PWT is pretty lame to be honest and you will have a hard kill anything with an evade or autothrusters with it once you blew your ordinance load.

Yes, being on the end of an 8-12 dice Alpha strike is gross but others can do it as well. I've seen it do 1 damage per 4 dice and 0, it's a one trick pony. If it pays off you have probably won. If it doesn't then you are probably done for so even as it stands today with an EPT it isn't the end of the world.

You should be worrying about X7 defenders more these days than torpedo boats.

You should be worrying about X7 defenders more these days than torpedo boats.

Ok, lets compare.

Rookie - 21 pts

Delta - 30

So we will just assume title is auto include

That means for 7 points (already more than scoutmaster) you gain 1 agility, lose 1 pilot skill, lose munitions, lose astromech, 1 hp and a free CONDITIONAL evade, white k-turn, and a barrel roll.

Yes, the defender is better than the xwing. But you pay more points for it and its more a give/take than the scout, and lose munitions (i wont count astromech since i believe thats in the cost of the ship). scout is all bonus, little negative and no conditionals.

totally agree, TLT's ARE killing this game.

People like this, are part of the problem.

Actually, his point is that if you just wait another wave, then Contracted Scouts will probably not be such a big deal. People were going crazy over TLT's and how they broke the game. How it was power creep. How it took no skill. How it destroyed the game that people loved. People went nuts over it. In just a short while you didn't see TLT lists anymore. I think his point is that you just need to wait a bit and it will sort out.

This.

I have seen multiple "the game is dying because of [insert build]" movements with various waves and it's kind of hard to take them seriously

Looking at list juggler it's not like they are the only thing in the winning builds (not even that common place). Sorry your local meta sucks. Sorry you can't beat contracted scouts.

Don't disagree that X-Wings are overcosted, however.

Occasionally a perfect storm of upgrades appears where no individual element is underpowered but together they go above and beyond. The Jumpmaster is the most recent example of this. It'll die eventually.

The metagame isn't a linear power ranking because the ships aren't a linear power ranking. List A has an advantage over List B and List B has an advantage over List C but that doesn't mean List A has an advantage over List C. Same with ships: a 3 die attack is more powerful than two 2 die attacks against a high agility ship, but two 2 die attacks are more powerful against a low agility ship.

People need to get this linear approach to list power out of their heads.

How competitive a ship is not solely a function of the ship itself.

Whether a ship will succeed in the metagame depends on what it's up against and that's in a state of constant flux. What's powerful depends on what everyone else is flying: as people change what they fly to match what's thought of to be powerful what's powerful changes.

In a game that uses a point system to even out squads, this is definitely a problem. If you can't see and/or understand that.. then nothing short of getting a better knowledge of game design and balance is going to fix that. So all i can really say is.. educate yourself.

Every point in a squad has a 'value' associated with it. The points on a rookie x-wing are significantly less value per point than a jumpmaster. THIS IS A PROBLEM with a 100 point cap for every team. the point to value ratio should be equal for every ship but its not. This is a balance problem at its core.

Yes this game has counters to builds

Yes this game is affected by player skill

Yes this game is affected by dice rolls.

None of that changes the fact the per point value on some ships is less than others. What it does do, is allows people to randomly throw out 'oh TLT won X tourney so its all ok right?'. Wrong. There are so many variables that can cause people to win regardless of the glaring imbalance the game has.

So your entire argument here is 'the game is glaringly imbalanced, it's so imbalanced I don't have to present any argument to back up that fact and if you disagree you just don't understand game design' that seems real likely to effectively prove your point...

totally agree, TLT's ARE killing this game.

People like this, are part of the problem.

Actually, his point is that if you just wait another wave, then Contracted Scouts will probably not be such a big deal. People were going crazy over TLT's and how they broke the game. How it was power creep. How it took no skill. How it destroyed the game that people loved. People went nuts over it. In just a short while you didn't see TLT lists anymore. I think his point is that you just need to wait a bit and it will sort out.

I see your point... but this just further promotes the power creep. TLT lists SHOULD be viable. They shouldn't of just been smashed out entirely.

Remind me again what list won spanish nationals this year? Beating dengaroo int he semi-finals and triple scouts in the final match?

Oh yah, quad TLT...

telling you.

death of the game.

the point to value ratio should be equal for every ship but its not. This is a balance problem at its core.

Because value is not linear: it depends on the other list.

totally agree, TLT's ARE killing this game.

People like this, are part of the problem.

Actually, his point is that if you just wait another wave, then Contracted Scouts will probably not be such a big deal. People were going crazy over TLT's and how they broke the game. How it was power creep. How it took no skill. How it destroyed the game that people loved. People went nuts over it. In just a short while you didn't see TLT lists anymore. I think his point is that you just need to wait a bit and it will sort out.

Looking at list juggler it's not like they are the only thing in the winning builds (not even that common place). Sorry your local meta sucks. Sorry you can't beat contracted scouts.

Called it in my second post.

Listen man, if u aren't going to recognize the glaring power creep that jumpmaster introduced into the game then so be it. I clearly can't convince you.. but the numbers are there and if you understand anything about the game you would see it too. Its not about losing to the ship, or whatever lists people win and or lose to. Its about what you get for the point cost when you add a ship to a team. and its way cheaper to use a jumpmaster than most of the ships in this game.

In a game that uses a point system to even out squads, this is definitely a problem. If you can't see and/or understand that.. then nothing short of getting a better knowledge of game design and balance is going to fix that. So all i can really say is.. educate yourself.

Every point in a squad has a 'value' associated with it. The points on a rookie x-wing are significantly less value per point than a jumpmaster. THIS IS A PROBLEM with a 100 point cap for every team. the point to value ratio should be equal for every ship but its not. This is a balance problem at its core.

Yes this game has counters to builds

Yes this game is affected by player skill

Yes this game is affected by dice rolls.

None of that changes the fact the per point value on some ships is less than others. What it does do, is allows people to randomly throw out 'oh TLT won X tourney so its all ok right?'. Wrong. There are so many variables that can cause people to win regardless of the glaring imbalance the game has.

So your entire argument here is 'the game is glaringly imbalanced, it's so imbalanced I don't have to present any argument to back up that fact and if you disagree you just don't understand game design' that seems real likely to effectively prove your point...

i already provided it. you can read it, or not.

totally agree, TLT's ARE killing this game.

People like this, are part of the problem.

Actually, his point is that if you just wait another wave, then Contracted Scouts will probably not be such a big deal. People were going crazy over TLT's and how they broke the game. How it was power creep. How it took no skill. How it destroyed the game that people loved. People went nuts over it. In just a short while you didn't see TLT lists anymore. I think his point is that you just need to wait a bit and it will sort out.

I see your point... but this just further promotes the power creep. TLT lists SHOULD be viable. They shouldn't of just been smashed out entirely.

Remind me again what list won spanish nationals this year? Beating dengaroo int he semi-finals and triple scouts in the final match?

Oh yah, quad TLT...

telling you.

death of the game.

one example in a game that can be heavily altered by skill and chance doesn't mean anything and just shows your lack of understanding on variance and balance. Just because one good player made it work for him doesn't mean the cost of the jump master isn't broken. One player who won a tournament should be considered the exception, not the rule. Hes the top of the top.

One giant misconception you all seem to be having is that im saying the ship broke the game as in they can;t be beat. Thats not what im saying at all. I'm saying the power creep slope just got really, really steep from the jumpmaster. It threw all original balance out the window, and now jump master is the new standard. Before it was soontir. Now its the jump. Every ship introduced into the game from now on every player will say to themselves (should i use this? or should i just use the jumpmaster).

This is a problem people lol.

Blue five is right and there are always counters.
Stress screws up scouts who will then be going left left and left a bit more, that is a negative because it's predictable and there are many ways to dish out stress.
With the X7 while it is conditional the way they are played its almost always going to be there but it's a small base ship in this case.

I do believe they are a little undercosted (scouts) but by 1 or 2 points but if someone believes they are just roflstomping every list out there feels like people are just not wanting to adapt their list to deal with a specific list that is difficult.

Contracted Scout should have never had the EPT. It created this whole mess due to too many synergies on a cheap base. Problem solved.

Blue five is right and there are always counters.

Stress screws up scouts who will then be going left left and left a bit more, that is a negative because it's predictable and there are many ways to dish out stress.

With the X7 while it is conditional the way they are played its almost always going to be there but it's a small base ship in this case.

I do believe they are a little undercosted (scouts) but by 1 or 2 points but if someone believes they are just roflstomping every list out there feels like people are just not wanting to adapt their list to deal with a specific list that is difficult.

This is the wrong way to think in terms of game balance.

If anyone plays or has played hearthstone there was a card called the Piloted Shredder that basically **** on all power creep balance just like the jump master. And yes, you could add cards into your decks specifically to counter act the piloted shredder but this is BAD. Auto include cards or in this case ships for xwing is a bad thing for the game. it basically says from now on any time FFG releases a new ship its going to have to be better than the jump master, other wise you just take a jump master. the base power level of ships in this game has shifted. This is power creep, and for a game like xwing its really really bad due to the 100 point limitations. So either old ships need to be adjusted point wise based on the power shift, or the new powered up cards like jumpmaster need to be taken back.

I do also understand what you (PinkTaco) are getting at with the power creep though.

For a bit I tried to not use scouts with my partybus and stuck with Y-Wings to do the same Drea/Kavil and it is just not efficient enough when you compare it directly with the scout.
And yes, I went back to scouts for the extra agility and better dial.

There is also the fact that this is a business for them and a hobby for us, it wouldn't make financial sense to release ships that suck compared to older ships. Not saying that's a super cool thing to do, it's not but it's a necessary evil.
That said, X-Wing has enough diversity that the vast majority of list ideas can be countered with some thought. In my short time playing X-Wing I have never seen a list that is just so over the top there is no way to beat them.

I do hate X7 Defenders lol

"This thing I don't like is OP, and if you don't agree you are just blind. It couldn't be that you have a different view... you are just wrong because I know everything."

Ive been playing since wave 2, and i can tell you that every wave something tops the meta. Every wave people complain about how that thing is killing the game. Every. Single. Wave.

Simmer down. It's not as bad as you think.

Sigh. Just when I thought it wouldn't happen again, the sky is falling ...

You must be typing this while sitting in Jacksonville, FL., you know, where the sky REALLY is falling ...

That's just an illusion. Everything you own is getting closer to the sky.

Take three lists. We've got List A, the hated list of the wave. It pushes a mechanic or upgrade to the max and it's good enough that a lot of people play it: if anything the forum hate is free publicity for it. We've got List B, another popular list. B can take most comers but A is stronger against the popular lists. List C people like but it doesn't really have an advantage against B and it struggles against A.

The meta looks a bit like this: A > C, A = B, B = C. You see a lot of A, some B and a little of C.

All three show up at Worlds. B ultimately wins.

Enter List D. List D counters List A and counters it hard: you take A against D and you stand next to no chance. A is forced to adapt but because it's based around taking one upgrade/mechanic and exploiting it to the max it can't: it falls apart because it has no build flexibility. D also happens to be strong against B.

The meta now looks like this: D >> A, D > B, A > C, A = B, B = C, D = C.

A dies off and B becomes less popular as a result of the rise of D. As a result C, a fairly middling list last wave, explodes in popularity: it can fight D and B on even terms and with A dead nothing surpresses it any more. It's gone from a merely okay list to the dominant list rapidly for the simple reason that its predator was killed off.

If this story sounds familar it's because it's true: it's Wave 7 and Wave 8.

"This thing I don't like is OP, and if you don't agree you are just blind. It couldn't be that you have a different view... you are just wrong because I know everything."

Ive been playing since wave 2, and i can tell you that every wave something tops the meta. Every wave people complain about how that thing is killing the game. Every. Single. Wave.

Simmer down. It's not as bad as you think.

And they were right. Every. Single. Wave

It is as bad. you just choose to ignore it.

Its why the jumpmaster comes out with 4 points worth of all those bonuses. Because every single wave power creep has been introduced until now you have the jumpmaster vs the xwing ridiculousness in the OP.

This is the end result. And its going to happen next wave too, and people are going to see it and say the same thing... or, the ships will be designated as trash and never used because why would you? you have the jumpmaster.

So what is it in Wave 9?

So what is it in Wave 9?

ARC isn't broken but its the power creep fix for rebels. shadowcaster has so far been proven to be underwhelming because... you guessed it, jumpmaster, and protectorate is the power creep of khrix and m3 but still probably wont see a whole lot of play because... you guessed it, jumpmaster.

So what is it in Wave 9?