Jumpmaster has shoved this game so far down into power creep territory its not even funny. To be honest the more I think about it the more frustrated I get with how glaringly obvious it is, and why no one seems to be nearly as outraged as they should be.

I know everyone on this forum hates 'xwing fix' threads but to be honest.. when comparing the jumpmaster to the xwing, its kind of sickening.

If you look at the rookie compared to the contracted scout, for just FOUR measly points and a red die, you gain a second torp slot, a pilot skill, a big base, 4 hp, an elite talent, a crew, an elicit, a barrel roll, and a WHITE SLOOP. *edit* just realized i forgot the turret too. LOL.

*mindblown*

how anyone can argue xwings don't need fixes, or scouts didn't break this game astounds me. This is power creep through and through. This is a problem. A big one for us as players and consumers.

Let's ban it!

Let's ban it!

I'm sure i'm gonna probably be called a crybaby that loses to trip u boats or something but TBH... ive never matched against tripple u boats. And I love to play squads with the ship. But to not see there is an issue when comparing jumpmaster to other ships is simply turning a blind eye to the problem.

Sigh. Just when I thought it wouldn't happen again, the sky is falling ...

You must be typing this while sitting in Jacksonville, FL., you know, where the sky REALLY is falling ...

Jumpmaster has shoved this game so far down into power creep territory its not even funny. To be honest the more I think about it the more frustrated I get with how glaringly obvious it is, and why no one seems to be nearly as outraged as they should be.

For me, it's because this game has fallen into power creep territory for a loooooong time. I think it was at it's worst with Fat Turrets ruling the land. There have been a number of things that have come out that just bend the meta so far one way. The Emperor has done it. TLT's had a bigger impact than Contracted Scouts, as well.

Personally, I don't think Contracted Scouts are that hard to beat. It's more that you have to then have a list that fights Soontir Fel that matters. For Contracted Scouts, you can take enough ships that have high enough attack (even if ordnance) and a higher PS to blast Contracted Scouts into dust. The only thing that Contracted Scouts really knocked out of the meta was Rebel Regen lists.

Outer Rim Smuggler 27 points -> 25 points -> possibly more play

Wild Space Fringer 30 points -> 27 points -> possibly more play

Contracted Scout 25 points -> 30 points

Problems solved.

Sigh. Just when I thought it wouldn't happen again, the sky is falling ...

You must be typing this while sitting in Jacksonville, FL., you know, where the sky REALLY is falling ...

I'm not really saying the sky is falling. im pointing out the glaring power creep issues in this game, and why when people make threads that say 'fix this ship' theres some serious merit behind it. The power levels of new ships are so far beyond old ones yet no one wants to seem to acknowledge this.

totally agree, TLT's ARE killing this game.

It's not even that far off,

If there were a 1 point increase across the board, certain archetypes have to be points shy.

If the right turns are red, the stress heavy builds would be crippled.

If it didn't have a second torpedo slot, U-boats wouldn't have enough kick.

Any ONE of these changes would make the Jumpmaster less of a menace.

And we can't compare them to the ORS and WSF because THOSE ships are garbage.

To be fair, a lot of things are "broken" compared to the x wing. A base cost Wedge is 29 points, whereas a fully loaded Soontir or Inquisitor are 35 and 31 ponts respectively and these two imperials are obviously vastly superior to poor Wedge. I agree that jumpmasters were probably "broken" at the point of their release, and may still feel that way to casual players and/or to some extent competitive players who haven't adapted their lists to fight jumpmasters. The meta has adapted to jumpmasters for the most part, therefor I woundnt say they are currently broken. You just can't expect to take common wave 1-7 lists and expect to do well anymore unfortunately.

totally agree, TLT's ARE killing this game.

People like this, are part of the problem.

You just can't expect to take common wave 1-7 lists and expect to do well anymore unfortunately.

This is kind of my point though. Thats the problem. Power creep.

totally agree, TLT's ARE killing this game.

People like this, are part of the problem.

Actually, his point is that if you just wait another wave, then Contracted Scouts will probably not be such a big deal. People were going crazy over TLT's and how they broke the game. How it was power creep. How it took no skill. How it destroyed the game that people loved. People went nuts over it. In just a short while you didn't see TLT lists anymore. I think his point is that you just need to wait a bit and it will sort out.

main thing about the jumpmaster that bugs me is the dial. No large ship should be that maneuverable. It has THE best dial in the game, large ships are suppose to be a tax for the power they bring because being a large base is suppose to be a bad thing. but when you give them such an insane dial and broll it doesnt feel like it has a penalty for a large base at all.

The right turns and 2left sloop should have been red. Theres no way a ship that massive can rotate 180 on a dime and not feel inertia ripping it apart, and its asymmetrical design yields its amazing left turn but doesnt give a right turn penalty??

That being said though, i'd rather deal with them than the fatPWTs. Truth, a single jm5k is usually a 3die pwt but almost all of its shenanigans require its arc anyway. Dengar is nowhere near as mean if you can sidestep his front arc and he goes down easier than fathan/decimators. Course against a single ship he just 2sloops and has you anyway.

jm5k is so powerful its in virtually EVERY list, even casual play. I cant remember the last time i faced a scum player that didnt use a jm5k. New ships should be more powerful than old ships, otherwise whats the point in releasing new ones (except for the oddball that adds a completely different tactic, even if its not technically stronger it can change the mentality of the game), but the jm5k is too much.

im getting tired of facing dengar literally every match. Even if hes a lousy pick for what theyre doing, they still bring him.

The interesting thing to me is that people seem to always make arguments revolving around the word 'power creep' as though it's some horrible thing that just instantly should be agreed as awful.

In reality I'm 100% glad the jumpmaster is 'power creep' from wave 1 ships. Guess what? Wave 1 ships for the most part were real bad. There's this weird idea that floats around that ship and upgrade power level must remain constant when in reality it's a mutable and flexible thing. The issues come in when something is introduces that significantly deviates from the general power curve of the game but honestly I don't think jumpmasters are really even that far off of 'average' for where things are. Yeah the t65 is bad, and that's unfortunate, but it will eventually recieve something that moves it up to the realm of where other things sit. The balance here is a cycle. Note that for a while soontir fel was considered king of everything. Nowadays in my opinion there are so many options to handle him and so many other strong options he is not the super must include he once was and in fact is just an average imperial ace now. Power levels change or the game gets boring and stagnant.

TIE swarms really shouldn't be as dominating as they are. Oh wait I mean double Falcons shouldn't be possible ehm Fat Turret lists break everything. No, TLT took all the manouvering out the game (my group literaly doesn't use ships anymore, we just roll dice to spare ourselves of the misery). But no, now I see it, a new menace - Contracted Scouts! Oh and Palpatine I guess.

Yes, the ship is priced very competetively, yes it has very strong upgrade synergy, but no, it didn't break the game. Powercreep is bound to happen and this is what it took to make non-TLT generics playable, because they can't punch through Palpaces in the rare case where they even get a shot.

meh, so long as ARCs remain competitive

and they do surprisingly well, so long as you do something silly like replace the third scout or party bus with Rau

main thing about the jumpmaster that bugs me is the dial. No large ship should be that maneuverable. It has THE best dial in the game, large ships are suppose to be a tax for the power they bring because being a large base is suppose to be a bad thing. but when you give them such an insane dial and broll it doesnt feel like it has a penalty for a large base at all.

well the penalty there is the 2-die primary, which is nigh on worthless at that point cost

which is why the actual problem is the hyper efficiency of the deadeye + salvage mech combo, which completely alleviates that weakness (and pushes it into one of the most powerful offenses in the game) for relatively very cheap

You are right, up to a point though.

I wouldn't say the Jumpmaster has broken the game, they have created a tournament scene were if you don't build your list to have something to fight scouts with, you are most likely going to lose against them. However, there are many, many things that counter scouts, as well as being (very) decent when flown against anything else. Wes, Biggs, OL, Soontir, Dengar, any x7 Defender are just a few examples. All these things are basically force multipliers. Wes strips their tokens, Biggs forces them to split fire, OL is just un-killable 1v1, Soontir does Soontir things, Defenders can laugh all damage off and Dengar has enough power to stay alive and blast apart a scout every other turn. It does not stop there though. All these things I mentioned offer great advantages over any other list.

Now you are going to say "But that forces me into specific choices to build my lists!". And you will be correct, but only if you are talking about a tournament setting. In tournaments, people are obviously going to field what they think is their most powerful choice. X-Wing is a game after all, and any game you play that involves dice and miniatures will always and ever have two things: Luck (obviously) and units that flat out perform better than others. That is to be expected though. The only thing that can be done to prevent this is going to be to adjust each unit to be as balanced as possible, in relation to the other units, but since you want to keep variety, (you wouldn't play a game with only an X-Wing and a TIE Fighter as unit choices for long, would you?) you need to "sacrifice" absolute unit balance. It is inevitable to have each and every unit perfectly balanced out with everything else that exists.

Of course, some things will not be noticed during play-testing and will slip past. Dengaroo is a great example. I doubt FFG planned to have Dengaroo perform that well. However, a player found out the awesome synergy and Dengaroo has been a huge meta factor ever since. But that list made a huge impact for like a couple months and, as you can see now, people have understood how to play against it and I see much fewer Denaroo lists right now (of course, I live in Greece and 15 people is considered a big tournament here...). Now, you see that Defenders are dominating the scene. Everyone is playing at least one in every Imperial list. Why? Simply because of a tiny -2 points + free evade fix. In the future, older ships will surely be brought back to life through a fix. Until then, all you can do is wait.

And to counter the "DEFENDER OP, PLS NERF" rant right now, Defenders die to 3-dice Crackshots like nothing. They are also predictable, too much sometimes, so block that 4-K .

As a final note, for a scout you need to purchase upgrades to have it perform well, especially in a tournament scene. Also ,if you think that the Jumpmaster is broken, try fielding 4 of them, without upgrades, on a moderately serious tournament. Any time the scouts run up against aces, or anything with ATs, it's GG.

Anyway, to conclude, I don't think anything is OP in the game right now and any list/ship can be dealt with.

My main problem with the JumpMaster 5000 is theme. Standard JumpMasters have a pair of laser cannons. Dengar upgraded the Punishing One with a quad-laser turret (2 dice to 3 dice, okay) and a Proton Torpedo Launcher (um, Scouts and everyone else, why do you all have this custom build?) and an astromech slot in the turret (again, what's everyone else doing?)

They took all the cool, custom elements of Dengar's ship and made them common elements of the generic, causing a cheap freighter to become the game's premier torpedo carrier.

Jumpmasters are a little bit cheap. I was frustrated too, but when you start to kill your first one, and maybe two or three more, you will see that they can also melt down pretty fast.

Also, the new "nerf" with the R4 Aggromech was nice. A lot of times I encounter plasma torpedo shots where I have to evade just 2 or maximal 3 hits. That is a bit few when the enemy list is based on alpha strikes

totally agree, TLT's ARE killing this game.

People like this, are part of the problem.

Actually, his point is that if you just wait another wave, then Contracted Scouts will probably not be such a big deal. People were going crazy over TLT's and how they broke the game. How it was power creep. How it took no skill. How it destroyed the game that people loved. People went nuts over it. In just a short while you didn't see TLT lists anymore. I think his point is that you just need to wait a bit and it will sort out.

I see your point... but this just further promotes the power creep. TLT lists SHOULD be viable. They shouldn't of just been smashed out entirely.

Outer Rim Smuggler 27 points -> 25 points -> possibly more play

Wild Space Fringer 30 points -> 27 points -> possibly more play

Contracted Scout 25 points -> 30 points

Problems solved.

At 30 points the scout would b ejust as useless as the WSF and ORS are now

Here's a thought: If the T65 and Jumpmasters exchanged power levels and the x wings became a hyper-efficient ordinance platform with as good a dial as a jump would anyone be complaining about them being "broken"?

totally agree, TLT's ARE killing this game.

People like this, are part of the problem.

Actually, his point is that if you just wait another wave, then Contracted Scouts will probably not be such a big deal. People were going crazy over TLT's and how they broke the game. How it was power creep. How it took no skill. How it destroyed the game that people loved. People went nuts over it. In just a short while you didn't see TLT lists anymore. I think his point is that you just need to wait a bit and it will sort out.

I see your point... but this just further promotes the power creep. TLT lists SHOULD be viable. They shouldn't of just been smashed out entirely.

Remind me again what list won spanish nationals this year? Beating dengaroo int he semi-finals and triple scouts in the final match?

Oh yah, quad TLT...

Here's a thought: If the T65 and Jumpmasters exchanged power levels and the x wings became a hyper-efficient ordinance platform with as good a dial as a jump would anyone be complaining about them being "broken"?