I'm sure this has been discussed before, but humour me. IF you please.

How do these two talents interact?

Hawkbat swoop is an attack check combined with a Force power check. So if you hit and produce the kind of force point you want to (and can) use, you hit the person and engage immediately as an incidental ... but preemptive avoidance is an out of turn incidental, so ... I guess it can be used in between the attack/force check, and the moving incidental ... but ... can it? Really?

If it can be used to avoid being hit by hawkbat swoop, its pretty powerful, but then it costs a destiny point ...

Thoughts? Opinions? Rulings?

I am of two schools of thought on this one.

School #1:

While Preemptive Avoidance may be an out-of-turn incidental, it cannot be used in the middle of another character's action and/or maneuver, only in between discrete events in structured time. If this is the case, Preemptive Avoidance cannot be used against Hawk Bat Swoop, because the user moves to engage as part of the resolution of their action.

School #2:

Preemptive Avoidance may be used at any time, including during the resolution of another character's action and/or maneuver. In which case it can be used to interrupt Hawk Bat Swoop. However, there would be two caveats - one, the Destiny Point spend to activate Preemptive Avoidance is the one Destiny Point the defender is allowed for that action, so they cannot spend another for defensive talents or to upgrade the pool; two, because the Hawk Bat Swoop action is still resolving, another Force Point can be spent to engage again, meaning if the attacker got two Force Points, all the Defender has done is effectively denied them an advantage on their check.

I remain undecided on how I would run it in my game. I lean towards the former, but I might use the latter in specific instances with high narrative importance.

I think Absol's option #1 is best, it keeps things simple. Also HBS is an expensive talent and very rare while PA is more common and cheaper. I feel like that's reason enough to allow HBS to rule in this situation.

Whatever the decision this also applies to the Draw Closer talent in Niman Disciple.

With Preemptive Avoidance, I feel part of the intent was that as soon as the Maneuver used to engage with the PC ended, then the talent would take place, and the PC would slip away. So big scary guy with a vibro-ax moves in to take your head off, you simply use PA to duck away and force him to either burn a second Maneuver to get back up close or forsake the swing.

I would tend to agree with the notion that Hawk-Bat Swoop's mechanics would override Preemptive Avoidance, but at the same time you've got Dodge which is also an out-of-turn incidental that can be activated the moment somebody attacks you. Though with Dodge at least, it's worded so that it's clear that the talent is meant to take effect prior to the attacker making their combat check.

In lieu of a dev answer, I'd say go with Hawk-Bat Swoop trumping Preemptive Avoidance, though that may be due more to my inner Ataru fanboy speaking than as a truly impartial GM.

It hasn't come up with my group yet but I'm leaning to the #2 resolution where Preemptive Avoidance would interrupt because it requires the use of a Destiny Point flip which is, in the economics of the game, a steeper activation cost. So even though it's cheaper to get the PA Talent it's more "expensive" to activate it. Further the result matches what one would expect compared with other uses of the PA Talent

Preemptive avoidance stops any attack by moving out of engaged range with the person. Its an interrupt.

Basically Yoda goes Hawk Bat swoop he is now in engaged range with the Emperor. The Emperor then goes Preemptive avoidance and moves out of engaged. The attack misses, because the Emperor is outside of melee range. Now you can't use preemptive avoidance if you are already engaged.

I tend to agree with the idea of treating Preemptive Avoidance like Dodge which would nullify HBS. Given the cost of a destiny point PA would have limited use while HBS could be spammed round after round. Besides a useful tactic would be for the HBS user to use a maneuver to engage, allowing the target to use PA and then surprise them with HBS. Of course I could be completely wrong so I would suggest asking the Developers.

I've sent the question to the rules question thingy, so let's hope they provide an answer soon.

Last session I ruled that PA couldn't be used to avoid HBS. Not that it helped ... my inquisitor missed and the PC disengaged, used Draw Closer and killed him in one hit (critical injury The End is Nigh), so the inquisitor got off a second attack, but missed again (with 5 advantages, so he seriously injured the NPC that the PC was rescuing) very heroic scene, excited player.

800XP games are crazy fun that way.