My acolytes are currently in a hive world (hive Volg on Fenksworld) on a mission to rescue a xenos biologist for their inquisitor, so that he doesnt have to pay a million thrones to some gangers. If they fail to rescue the biologist i may have the inquistor cut off a few limbs and send them to a world at war, or a death world.

In your opinion would this be a bit harsh, bearing in mind the inquistor is not too happy with them because he blames them for the death of aristarchus from the illumination adventure, they pretty much just went headlong into it and are a bit too trigger happy. I even have a player that whenever we get into a battle says, and i quote "Yay XP".

Let's see . . . the group fails the mission and wasn't trying very hard in the first place, yes? If it were me, I'd simply reduce the amount of XP awarded and make it clear that the reason why they aren't getting all that much XP is because 1. they failed the mission, and 2. they aren't playing in an intelligent manner. As for what happens in-game, depending on how important the mission was, I'd be more inclined to have the inquisitor send the offending acolytes off to be made into servitor parts, but that's just me. To answer your question, then, I'd have to say that no, it's not too harsh; heck, it may even be too lenient, again depending on how critically important the mission was.

malador888 said:

malador888 said:

IMHO, it depends on the tone of your campaign, and the character of your player's Inquisitor. As I have a group of players that seem, at least on the surface, similar to yours ... my recommendation would be to leave them hanging in a most inconvenient situation. Then, if any of them survive, subject them to months of interrogations, purity tests, and debriefings. Once you have their attention, have their Inquisitor tell them face-to-face (or by way of a very unpleasant Interrogator), in no uncertain terms, just how displeased he is. Maybe send them on a few "****" missions, where there is very little XP or loot or glory to be had.

Or, you could simply sit down and talk to your players. Explain to them that this game is not Dungeons & Dragons. Explain to them that this game requires something more from them, if everyone is to enjoy it equally. Explain to them that the "role-playing" can be as much, if not more, fun than the "roll-playing".

Of course, if your players are as hard-headed and corrupted as mine, then the former option might be appropriate.

On the harshness of the Inquisitor, it's all dependent on the tone you want to set.

In my game, I went with a more subtle (though more devastating in the long run) approach when the PC's cell screwed up for the third time in a row (they were new). Their cell simply got regulated to the status of "canary cell", that is, the cell that gets sent into a potentially dangerous unknown situation while the powers-that-be monitor the situation to see what happens to them in order to get a better idea of what they're up against. During their stent as canary operatives, they had their skulls cracked open by their handler, memories cut out, things left in their skulls just to see what happens over an extended period, etc. Once they learned what was going on, they tried a bit harder to prove to their Inquisitor that they were more useful to him as actual intelligence agents as opposed to just being used and abused as walking talking monster bait, petri dishes, and easily accessible and monitored test subjects. The players also learned that not only did their characters have to fight for their survival from the dark heretical elements within the Imperium at large but from within their own ranks as well. Now, one of the acolytes is on the track to becoming an Inquisitor himself.

malador888 said:

How about not giving out XP for fights? Or just give them a blanket XP based on time played as the book suggests with bonuses for role playing? That should stop that and tell them the direction you would like the game to go in. Experience Points are a Player reward, so reward the players for engaging in behaviors you'd like to reinforce, not for doing things that you would prefer they avoided. If you reward them each and every time they get into a shoot-out, then they're going to seek to get into as many shoot-outs as they can just like if you gave your dog a treat after peeing on the carpet, it will do it again to get that treat.

Graver said:

This, also, is a viable option. You just have to understand your players, and their motivations. And then, find a way to manipulate them to your desired end. Or rather, convince them that they can have fun doing things the way you want them to.

The real problem i have is that i have a group of 5 gamers, 1 has effectively been killed off, he was the guardsmen and had the highest fellowship so was useful for getting around ill explain more about him later.

Now my group will only be four players, one of which is not a power gamer and all the others are, one of the power gamers regularly whinges and moans about anything that he deems unfair, which can be almost anything, and has a tendency to roll tests while im not looking and without me putting any modifiers i want to on it and will not stop whining until i say he has passed then because there were no modifiers.

Another problem i have is that they are just not imaginative, and it seems to be working for them, they simply line up in combat and open fire or all mob someone in combat with melee weapons. At the moment i have them completely unarmed in the gang house of the kidnappers, one of the psykers has the call item power so has a las pistol and the four of them are up against two gangers in a room completely silenced by stummers.

Now back to the guardsmen, he was killed in a one on one duel with another of the acolytes, this fight started over some drugs that rendered both of them unconscious, the other 3 players stood back for the hour they were unconscious the guard woke up first and punched the other player because he suspected him of stealing from him so the other acolyte punched him back and caused one wound, normally this wouldnt matter but the guard has a malignancy of bloodlust (he picked up and got possessed by a weak daemon sword) so had to test WP or go all out to try and kill him, which of course he failed so a fight broke out between them. Their gear was currently being held by the other players so they fought unarmed the other players dove on the guard and pinned him down the other acolyte took back his mono axe and struck the killing blow, because of his connection with this daemon and the players willingness to continue i let him burn a fate point and he is gonna wake up in the pale pits of volg to become an arena fighter, and transfer to the scum career path because his mercenary licence was taken by the other players along with all his gear (they believe him to be dead).

What annoys me is a couple of the other players were planning on killing him because of his mutations he got and malignancy, they simply were not happy with a mutant in their midst, as much puritan as this is it wasnt because of this, it was because he had some negative things with him, quite simply i have some power gamers who are too used to being different in games as being bad

I like really nasty fights as a way to remind players that fighting is not always the best way.

I mean really nasty fights, something like a fortified base with 50 something infantry, 30 something heavy infantry, a few tanks, scary ass Biomancer (all stats in 50s, psy rating 5, several biomancy and minor powers), pillboxes, walls, Hereteks in full power armor with chainaxes or bolters. Not all at the same time however.

That was the party's fill of fighting for a while.

Also if the guardsmen has the highest fellowship something weird is going on. I don't know enough to tell wherther tht party doesn't like talking to people or the guardmen Rolled awesomely.

To the player who rolls tests without telling you, and then complaining, tell him, in no uncertain terms, to stop cheating, because that is what he's doing. Tell him to tell you when he wants to make a test, and roll his dice in front of you. If he fails to do so, that roll is ignored and he has to roll again in front of you. I cannot express how much I hate players who pull that sort of crap.

As for your power gamers..... send them on an almost 100% investigation/social mission, with no combat at all. That way, all their powergaming will be for naught, and they'll have to use their brains, rather than brawn.

I'd also suggest, as others have, to give flat rates of XP with bonuses for good RP, rather than giving XP for combat. That should help wean them off the combat/powergaming teat.

MILLANDSON said:

This works... Well it worked for me a few years back, and a decent roleplayer was created when he realized he didn't HAVE to cheat to be succesful.

GM didn't see it... Didn't happen... easy

Since they are basically thugs with an Inquisitor in charge instead of a gang leader toss them at a few relatively meaningless missions (as far as the big picture is concerned). Important missions are for RELIABLE agents! Now set is up that mindless initiation of combat at inappropriate points in the mission WILL lead to epic failure. Regardless of faction, no Inquisitor tolerates failure for long.

As for the rampant dice cheating followed by whining and game disrupting hysterics by one of your players: This is a serious peeve for me too. Always force a visible reroll after a coherent action is declared and modifiers levied. If they whine and cry too much then auto-fail the bastard a few times or impose a -30 STFU penalty for the roll.... These guys are not just pissing off their GMs, most of the other players are sure to be annoyed by the childish play style. The other (rather evil) punishment you could inflict on the cheater is to bide your time until their character ends up in melee with some obnoxiously dangerous baddie with Lightning Attack or similar tricks; Once the fight is on, cheat on your own dice rolls. Give an arbitrary +20 or +30 modifier to his attacks or possibly just roll and declare hits (the dice merely dictating WHERE!). If the retard knows math then he should figure it out eventually.

I should mention that I do NOT like doing things like this, as it cheapens my game. In some cases though it is important to break bad trends before they take the game down into failure.

You can also assign LESS XP for games where they pick useless fights, since such activities are detrimental to the overall mission. Even if it is just a pack of gangers they are beating up on "important individuals" are sure to notice reports of heavily armed individuals breaking heads and asking questions without fear of the Magistrates or Arbites. This increases the odds of mission failure, which is BAD.

As others have suggested, do not give xp for combat, but give a set ammount per session so long as the pcs make a real effort ... if they act foolishly and ruin a mission, make it clear you are docking their session xp for their poor behavior.

The whining pc should be taken aside and given an ultimatum - shape up or ship out, tell him you will no longer accept his behavior and if he insists on engaging in it you will autofail his efforts and blacklist him in the game. If you bow to his whining you only support the behavior and indicate to him that it is a viable way to get what he wants ... this is a learned and enforced behavior.

Do not let your pcs get away with fighting stupidly; make certain your enemies use the game tactics to their advantage - cover, aiming, full attacks, autofire, etc. Also have them attack from advantagious situations from which they can put the pcs in their place if they do not fight intelligently ... do this often and hopefully they will get the idea that the front door approach to combat is not going to work. You can also put them against npc villains who use non combat methods of dealing with them - manipulating them into angering the local authorities, looking like criminals, etc. An intelligent scum villain of rank 5 or better should be able to tear any unthinking group of thugs apart without firing a shot.

If they continue to fail because they are putting poor effort into their missions, have the Inquisitor suspect them of purposefully sabotaging his efforts and put each of them to the question ... a very long and nasty process which will leave physical and mental scars they cannot ignore. If he puts them back to work, have them start over in near suicidal missions from which they have to use all their skil land resources or perish ... after a handful of these - assuming they manage to survive - he may begin putting them to better uses again.

Seems like everyone has covered the OOC ways to deal with such players, but as for IC:

Put the PCs face-to-face with an arcoflagellant. Have the inquisitor make it very clear to them that even if their minds are unwilling, they can still provide their bodies...

Alternatively, I'm a fan of limb-removal Just take a look at what sense or physical trait the character uses for good effect, and cripple it. Ie, lop off a guardsman's hand so he can't tote his heavy weapons around, or poke out an assassin's eye so he can't see as well ("Maybe only having one eye will let you focus a little better!"). The best example I heard was an inquisitor removing a gunslinger's trigger fingers after he was a bit too trigger-happy one investigation.

At the very least, such an injury should serve as a potent reminder the penalties for failure, not just an excuse to inflict some hefty penalties. If your players are particularly good roleplayers, it might not even have to be a direct physical punishment. Blackmail and implied threats go a long way...

The Hobo Hunter said:

I like it, especially since the limb can be replaced if the players prove themselves worthy.

malador888 said:

Probably jsut have them do stuff that the Inquisitor (Who sounds like someone more hardcore then who we're running with) eventually exceute them if they don't soon turn useful for something other then being thugs.

And I gotta ask which Inquisitor you're running with, if only to figure out why they didn't get a full on purity test/debrief/every single orifice probed after the final battle in that adventure.

Kylen said:

Im using the inquisitor named Tyburn Graves from the illumination adventure, i havent decided if he is entirely puritan or is radical, but he is however as you put hardcore, i read somewhere on the forums that one inquistor orbitally bombarded his acolytes for a few failures, i dont plan on going that far unless an entire world is at stake, but im trying to discourage them from just charging in and trying to bust some heads, it is partlly my fault for running the illumination adventure where they can get away with that sort of thing. The players seem to just have a rather headstrong mentality so i may just let go in for a war scenario with an investigative element.

And i wasnt sure how to run the purity tests and announce if they were tainted or not so i decided to leave it for now, however the player that they 'killed off' (soon to become a Volg Pit Fighter) was to only one obviously tainted, he picked up a daemon sword and got mutations and temporarily possessed but now he will not be returning to the inquisitor, unless he gets picked up by a radical somehow.

I see. Well, the whole point of that one was if you DIDN'T kill the baddie/find a way to help out the Seer, then the world probably WAS fraked. Granted, he was gonna die either way.

And generally, to my limited knowledge, the purity tests don't exactly work until hardcore mutations start showing up (I think).

And if your group is proving to be far too headstrong, just let them be that way. If they all die, and don't learn from it, well, you might want to go with some more of the "Kick in Door, Bust some Heads" missions then anything stealthy.

To answer the thread title, in my opinion, if there is a punishment needed to be handed out, if the PC is not drinking out of a straw, you haven't done enough.

malador888 said:

Even at the risk of sounding a bit harsh here:

First thing you should do is stop giving them XP for each fight. Simply give them XP whenever they accomplish something which takes the story forward and if they accomplish nothing give them nothing (or a few "you live, you learn" XP points at the end of the session).

I personally use the style where I hand out XP after each session and I don't necessarily say what they are for. Players should choose their characters actions based on roleplaying, not XP.

As for the original question... Cut off a few limbs and throw the whole gang into a death-world prison colony with the mission to infiltrate the local cult brewing into a full-scale rebellion. And let the inquisitors last words before jail door slams shut be: "...and I'm only giving you this chance to redeem yourselves, because I don't have anyone else to send there. May Emperor have mecry on your souls."

Polaria said:

Nice ......

Wicked, vile, brutal, and sadistic. Yes, very very nice.

malador888 said:

As my cell's inquisitor is a master telepath I kind of have an easy out on the purity test issue. He just reaches into their minds and bangs around with a monkey wrench until he know whatever he wants to. (Actually he's more deft and subtle than that, but the effect is the same) Of course given the "closer than flesh rule" I always have to put some lag between their debriefings and when I tell them they gained corruption points so they don't figure out the source.

Yet strangely they're pretty loyal to their boss. Then again the only other inquisitor they know they've had contact with had them pulled out of their beds and had alien neural probes jammed into their heads so he could learn what they knew. Even though only one of them remembered the experience, they didn't like that guy.

Between that and them wiping out Tyburn Graves acolytes (4 of the pre-gens from Shattered Hopes/Edge of Darkness) during Illumination (my cell's 2nd adventure/1st real mission) they've had a pretty rough go of it w/ the rest of the =][=

In my last campaign the PC's boss spaced someone for mouthing off during 1st debrief. The poor PC spent several rounds sucking the void until another PC promised to insure his behavior. At which point he was hauled in with a grapple/claw, and hauled to the medical bay. The PCs lived in fear of their =][= as he always seemed to know everything they had done*. On one hand they wanted to kill him. On the other he always made sure they were provided for in terms of gear and medical care. (Some players got to looking forward to arm and leg crits as the replacement were always good or better.) Also he didn't really care if they pocketed a few choice items, and some thrones as long as it didn't endanger the mission.

*Which was mainly due to the fact that they were drugged with a memory inhibitor and telepathically probed before every debrief. It took a lot of debriefs before they realized they were losing time while drinking tea waiting for their Boss to show.