It's Thursday and that means we have got lots to discuss. As we move forward in this game we wanted to cover some specific keywords and terms that are used between card games.

1) Mill or milling. This term like many in the article come from Magic:the Gathering. The technical definition is : "Mill is an informal term used in Magic describing cards moving out of a player's library to somewhere even less useful (meaning: anywhere other than the hand)." In Destiny the same rule a pplies, Mill references sending cards from a player's deck to their discard pile in an attempt to get rid of powerful cards before the player can draw them, as well as speeding up the chance of decking a player to force a loss.

<cough> Advantage? (Dice, Card and Draw are the ones I can see...)

Next article can't give away all the secrets now can we

Pretty much.

A few additional notes:

1 - "Mill" got its name from the card "Millstone" from MtG which discarded the top two cards from your opponent's deck. It was one of the first cards to have this effect and lead to decks based on it - "Mill[stone] Decks". That tidbit helps immensely in understanding why it is "mill" versus some other word.

2 - The quote/"definition" you have from JR Honeycutt about "making the best choices" is not Tempo at all. I completely disagree with that as a definition.

Tempo is trying to create a board presence that is difficult to remove and then increasing it and eventually snowballing that position to where your opponent cannot win.

"Making a tempo play" is trying to create that position and/or increasing it once it is established. This is NOT always the best play. The classic example where it is not is when the play you make wins you the game regardless of whether your opponent can deal with it; that is NOT a tempo play, but is almost certainly the best play.

The imagery of a snowball turning into an avalanche makes it easy to visualize. If you are making a tempo play, you are trying to start a big enough snowball that even if your opponent shaves a bit off on his turn/action it ultimately grows out of control and buries him.

Side question you can answer in PM - where are you located Thesug1? I expect it may be near me.

2 - The quote/"definition" you have from JR Honeycutt about "making the best choices" is not Tempo at all. I completely disagree with that as a definition.

Remember I did define Tempo not using the quote as the reference definition. The quote isn't defining tempo but helping to open up perspective about it as a unique identity. I personally feel that in order to make a good tempo play or decision you have to be able to take what you have and don't have and make an educated decision. Is that the definition of Tempo? No. But its a valuable perspective to help any player enhance their tempo plays.

<cough> Advantage? (Dice, Card and Draw are the ones I can see...)

This is the idea that if I can make my cards count for 2 or more of your cards I will eventually win the game since cards (or dice) are typically a limited resource.

So as an example if I have a single card that kills or stops two of your cards, I would be gaining an advantage, because presumably my single draw countered two of yours, which is highly efficient. If all my cards did this, ultimately you would have no cards left and you would thus lose.

It is worth noting that in a game where you can draw multiple cards a turn (like Destiny) that the idea of card advantage is significantly reduced, because even though you may have removed two of my cards for a single card, I can simply out draw you to counterbalance it to some degree.

It DOES translate quite a bit into Tempo though, since if I kill two of the cards on your board while establishing my own, it is unlikely that you will be able to slow me down without doing something similar, which can lead to a snowball effect.

2 - The quote/"definition" you have from JR Honeycutt about "making the best choices" is not Tempo at all. I completely disagree with that as a definition.

Remember I did define Tempo not using the quote as the reference definition. The quote isn't defining tempo but helping to open up perspective about it as a unique identity. I personally feel that in order to make a good tempo play or decision you have to be able to take what you have and don't have and make an educated decision. Is that the definition of Tempo? No. But its a valuable perspective to help any player enhance their tempo plays.

I get you, just trying to underline that "making good plays" and "Tempo" are not related. Tempo plays frequently are the best plays, especially early in a game, but the two are not necessarily linked otherwise.

I do agree that having a large knowledge of the game in question leads to making stronger tempo plays overall, which is what I think you were getting at.

2 - The quote/"definition" you have from JR Honeycutt about "making the best choices" is not Tempo at all. I completely disagree with that as a definition.

Remember I did define Tempo not using the quote as the reference definition. The quote isn't defining tempo but helping to open up perspective about it as a unique identity. I personally feel that in order to make a good tempo play or decision you have to be able to take what you have and don't have and make an educated decision. Is that the definition of Tempo? No. But its a valuable perspective to help any player enhance their tempo plays.

I get you, just trying to underline that "making good plays" and "Tempo" are not related. Tempo plays frequently are the best plays, especially early in a game, but the two are not necessarily linked otherwise.

I do agree that having a large knowledge of the game in question leads to making stronger tempo plays overall, which is what I think you were getting at.

That is correct.

Something to consider with Destiny Tempo. (playtested, but not an expert...so take with a grain of salt)

Action economy almost always feels like Tempo, but be careful because sometimes its not. i.e chaining a bunch of actions together via ambush and various other triggers. Right now I *think* like there are two camps on whether chaining actions is good or bad tempo. I think its good, but you can execute it poorly.

Easy answer for Destiny Tempo would be playing something that advances your board.

Example:

Turn 1 Your Opponent plays Rey's staff on Rey, triggering her ability that he/she then uses to Activate Rey. Ray rolls 1x +2x and resource. He/she gets a smug look on her face seeing that it was a nice tempo play that also resulted in threatening damage. But dont panic. Its your turn now.

On your turn, you look at your hand and see Block. Oh boy. time to wreak their roll. But wait! what about tempo! If you play block to stop that 3 damage the likelihood of you making a play that advances your board (i.e. puts another dice into play) is A LOT lower. You are now reliant on your dice producing resources you dont have, just to keep tempo.

Tempo can even extend to using your characters life as a resource, and that's a slippery slope in Destiny....but 3 damage to the face isnt the end of the world. Save your block, play that Immobilize(or something with dice) in your hand instead. Maybe your opponent will get greedy and try to stack even more damage. you wont have the resources to block anymore...but the likelihood you can shield up using immobilize(or do something like that) next turn is fairly good!

Don't give tempo to your opponent simply because you want to avoid a minor skirmish. Let the force flow through you.

There are times when playing against this practice is fine.

Example.

T1 Your Opponent is a crafty face puncher. he/she drops a Holdout blaster on Rey, Triggering her ability to activate Rey and uses the Ambush from holdout blaster to to trigger Luke! rolling 3x 3x +2x +1rng OH CRAP. (it happened to me in playtesting) You probably want to make the anti-tempo play and block that 8 damage. it sucks but so does letting luke punch you in the stomach. He's kinda a bully.

In that situation you opponent now has little to do on their turn that is going to really matter so you may want to try and find some resources to become tempo neutral. Because luke is going to punch you again. He doesn't like you... I don't like you either...just watch yourself...we're wanted men! I have a death sentence on 12 systems!

When do you transition from tempo to ending the game?

You shouldn't have to, if things are going well you can do them both at the same time. but if you are ahead on dice on the board consider trying to push damage through and doing things that prevent the same from happening to you. late game blocks can hurt alot more than early game blocks. (dont forget about dodge and deflect!)

A word of wisdom? from my Viewpoint of Tempo:

Don't get Cocky kid, if you try and get cutesy with tempo you can end up doing a whole lot of nothing. Make sure you don't lose of the end goal of winning in hopes of having a million dice on the board.

I love your post so much, thats a great way to take tempo from traditional CCGs and translate it onto Destiny terms. Thank you very much!!

I felt I had something to contribute to the tempo topic, so I'd thought i'd share. thanks for liking it!

The contribution was excellent!!

I fence and tempo as a fencing term is quite a profoundly complicated concept.

In the beginning a fencer will think "I want to advance", then tic-toc with the feet and a pause "I am safe" . As our imaginary fencer gets better they start to move backwards and forwards fluidly but you can get a metronome out and set it up as they will move with very regular timing of things. Now as you get even better you can start playing with the tempo of your movements, you move your front foot slowly and then rapidly move the back foot and lunge in an attack, or you start an attack that is quite slow, draws out a counter attack and you then parry and riposte with great speed. Then you start to develop foot tempo and hand tempo as two different things. I can move very fast with my feet and slowly with my sword, in order to force you off balance and maybe do something that I am hoping you will do.

Now to translate that into a card game: I could activate a character with 2 dice and even though I roll well just pinking you for the damage I rolled isn't perfect, you may have 5 cards in hand (which is 5 unknowns) and by waiting I can reduce the unknowns. I may do the same damage eventually, or I may do more as you went too hard and fast in the early stages of a turn and I was still building up. So for me the concept of tempo is that whereby you try and give yourself more choices while at the same time you are limiting your opponents choices or putting pressure on him in such a way as to force an error.

In some regards sometimes a less than optimal choice gives your opponent the wrong information to act on, and then you strike. So tempo isn't always optimal, at least not when viewed as a card by card play.

Sometimes I may play one card to have you play two, but there is also a play one to draw one. That will have an impact on tempo as much as anything else. Thinks that can control the tempo will be (as I can see) the number of characters: 4 Stormtroopers will play with a different tempo to 2 Characters, while allies that are included in your deck can mess about with the tempo of the deck. Perhaps it starts up the game slow and careful but in later turns burns through cards and rushes you down.

So yeah, it is about card, dice, play advantage. But there is more to it as well....

Great post. That's a lot of good advice and commentary to think about.

I thought this was an interesting post. As someone who has never played Magic or any CCG before, information like this is most welcome. Thanks

I thought this was an interesting post. As someone who has never played Magic or any CCG before, information like this is most welcome. Thanks

Out of curiosity, what are you looking for in terms of information about this game? What can we cover to help you as a player?

I thought this was an interesting post. As someone who has never played Magic or any CCG before, information like this is most welcome. Thanks

Out of curiosity, what are you looking for in terms of information about this game? What can we cover to help you as a player?

I would say at this early stage of the game, since it hasn't been released yet, the most helpful things for a new CCG player like myself would be more about the presentation of the information. By that I mean, by just keeping things relatively simply and straight forward goes a very, very long way for new players to any game.

I know by just joining these official forums here, by reading over some of the discussions happening here already, that a great number of posters here are both very informed of the whole genre this game is based in aswell as looking for an early edge on the game by gaining insight into the game before it's released. And that's great.

For me however, I'm not looking to become the #1 tournament player or to win every game. I'm just looking to be able to play a fun Star Wars game that has some depth and customization to it & to meet fellow players who want the same things from the game in my area.

So, in short I guess the information I'd like to see is both simple and straight forward presentation of information about the game in general as well as an awareness that not everyone reading the posts on these forums or listening to the podcasts or viewing Facebook pages about the game are wanting to be experts at the game, that they may just want to have fun with it and play the game casually.

Thanks.