It's violet, okay? Violet! This is purple!

Okay, so that is actually worse.

Kyla, I just have to say: you're awesome! Don't let no one give you no guff about your text color ! Pink is great, anyway!

Kyla is great indeed. The pink test color still stinks and make me ignore her far too often.

And Purple is btw so much better than the pink

Does it work in the old style too? I am all for compromises which work in both color schemes.

edit: And technical it should be electrical indigo ;-)

Old argument, but it just shows the holes in Lucas' concepts for me. Do Jedi get Conflict for Hiroshima-style actions? Is killing lots of people justified if it prevents the death of lots and lots of people later?

I don't know, I think it's more a case of the philosophy of a generation closer to war than we are. Sometimes pragmatism is the only solution. As for the metaphysics, given the depths that sentients will go to impose their will on others, surely the "Force" understands, and even fosters the idea, that pragmatism is a necessity sometimes.

Everybody on the Death Star was fair game. They just blew up a planet. Nobody was innocent, they were all complicit. So the Force, acting through Luke, made sure they joined the Cosmic Force, rechannelled to the Living Force, to maybe do better next time round...

Old argument, but it just shows the holes in Lucas' concepts for me. Do Jedi get Conflict for Hiroshima-style actions? Is killing lots of people justified if it prevents the death of lots and lots of people later?

I don't know, I think it's more a case of the philosophy of a generation closer to war than we are. Sometimes pragmatism is the only solution. As for the metaphysics, given the depths that sentients will go to impose their will on others, surely the "Force" understands, and even fosters the idea, that pragmatism is a necessity sometimes.

Everybody on the Death Star was fair game. They just blew up a planet. Nobody was innocent, they were all complicit. So the Force, acting through Luke, made sure they joined the Cosmic Force, rechannelled to the Living Force, to maybe do better next time round...

Furthermore Lucas portraits the jedi of the clone wars as full speed ahead into the dark side. The council, even Yoda himself are close to fall to the darkside and Anakin is by no means the only Jedi who falls during that time. "Voices", "Destiny" and "Sacrifice", the final of TCW makes it very clear that even Yoda was effected from the conflict of the war. "Hiroshima-style actions" is a very fitting term of the problem the jedi face during war. Gaining conflict should be nearly unavoidable for a force wielding soldier in war. Dealing with it and making the best out of it is an interesting challenge from a roleplay perspective.

Then, when he is calm and at peace, he uses the Force to pick up a speeder truck and drop it on a crowd full of innocent civilians.

Because that's a lot of Conflict points, even for the GM's pet PC...

Innocent? I believe the innocents were on Alderaan.

I'd say you had innocents in both incidents. There are certainly rational reasons why the Death Star had to be destroyed, but the same can be said of Tarkin's Fear Doctrine (Is that even canon anymore) leading to the conclusion that blowing up one planet would spare a hundred more the same fate. The Empire seemed big on the kill/imprison one to warn a hundred technique.

I'm pretty sure the guys cleaning the toilets and cooking food on the Death Star would be categorized as innocent by most. They blew up the Death Star to get at the few people willing to make the decision to use it, and Alderaan was destroyed for the few people who founded and pushed for the creation of the Alliance. Arguably both disproportionate responses with unnecessarily high body counts. Have to give it for Alderaan for the most involved folks killed for being on the wrong planet. Imagine being that poor sap just picking up a load of Nerf meat for a chain of restaurants and going "Huh, that's a new moon... what's that green light.."

To add to the actual thread, and the above kind of hints at it, I always have to divide intention from outcome to really weigh "morality", with or without impact of the Force. Tarkin destroyed Alderaan to make a point. Luke destroyed the Death Star to spare another world the same fate. Both killed a significant number of people, or more accurately, were responsible for their demise in Tarkin's case, but one had a more goodly reason when judged by common conventions of morality in most societies. I'd award less Conflict to Mr. Skywalker for that reason, but he'd get some. Even when you justify it and accept you had to do it, it'd still weigh on you.

And that's honestly as far as I take it. Some powers have inherent drawbacks to using one pip color versus another. If a character exists on the Paragon side of Light/Dark, I'll expect Strain expended to go so strongly against what is the best representation of your "philosophy of the Force" the system provides. I don't typically flip the Destiny Point unless it's drastically out of character. Otherwise, I tend to rule it based on intention/outcome. Using the Force to terrorize a Stormtrooper into fleeing a scene to avoid killing him wouldn't generate Conflict. Using it to inspire his sense of compassion to act aggressively and kill his superior who just summarily executed someone, would generate Conflict in my opinion. So far it hasn't caused many problems in my groups balance wise, but I have certainly played with folks who would find some way to exploit it.

I wouldnt say there are innocents in both. The people on the Death Star were Imperial Navy. They joined and they knew what they were a part of. Most of the people on Alderaan were just people who were going on with their lives.

There is also the fact that Alderaan was blown up only to make a point. It was only 'If we will blow up Alderaan, just think how little we will care about your crappy little planet.' It wasnt a military target or a rebel base. The Death Star was a warship. That is a big difference.

One word: droids.

And yet the movies show us that even the simplest droid is capable of feeling fear, affection and pain.

It's okay to blow them up if we made them in the first place?

Well, if it cant ask me not to blow it up, I'll...... oh wait..

Does it work in the old style too? I am all for compromises which work in both color schemes.

No:

Then, when he is calm and at peace, he uses the Force to pick up a speeder truck and drop it on a crowd full of innocent civilians.

Because that's a lot of Conflict points, even for the GM's pet PC...

Innocent? I believe the innocents were on Alderaan.

I'd say you had innocents in both incidents. There are certainly rational reasons why the Death Star had to be destroyed, but the same can be said of Tarkin's Fear Doctrine (Is that even canon anymore) leading to the conclusion that blowing up one planet would spare a hundred more the same fate. The Empire seemed big on the kill/imprison one to warn a hundred technique.

I'm pretty sure the guys cleaning the toilets and cooking food on the Death Star would be categorized as innocent by most. They blew up the Death Star to get at the few people willing to make the decision to use it, and Alderaan was destroyed for the few people who founded and pushed for the creation of the Alliance. Arguably both disproportionate responses with unnecessarily high body counts. Have to give it for Alderaan for the most involved folks killed for being on the wrong planet. Imagine being that poor sap just picking up a load of Nerf meat for a chain of restaurants and going "Huh, that's a new moon... what's that green light.."

To add to the actual thread, and the above kind of hints at it, I always have to divide intention from outcome to really weigh "morality", with or without impact of the Force. Tarkin destroyed Alderaan to make a point. Luke destroyed the Death Star to spare another world the same fate. Both killed a significant number of people, or more accurately, were responsible for their demise in Tarkin's case, but one had a more goodly reason when judged by common conventions of morality in most societies. I'd award less Conflict to Mr. Skywalker for that reason, but he'd get some. Even when you justify it and accept you had to do it, it'd still weigh on you.

And that's honestly as far as I take it. Some powers have inherent drawbacks to using one pip color versus another. If a character exists on the Paragon side of Light/Dark, I'll expect Strain expended to go so strongly against what is the best representation of your "philosophy of the Force" the system provides. I don't typically flip the Destiny Point unless it's drastically out of character. Otherwise, I tend to rule it based on intention/outcome. Using the Force to terrorize a Stormtrooper into fleeing a scene to avoid killing him wouldn't generate Conflict. Using it to inspire his sense of compassion to act aggressively and kill his superior who just summarily executed someone, would generate Conflict in my opinion. So far it hasn't caused many problems in my groups balance wise, but I have certainly played with folks who would find some way to exploit it.

I wouldnt say there are innocents in both. The people on the Death Star were Imperial Navy. They joined and they knew what they were a part of. Most of the people on Alderaan were just people who were going on with their lives.

There is also the fact that Alderaan was blown up only to make a point. It was only 'If we will blow up Alderaan, just think how little we will care about your crappy little planet.' It wasnt a military target or a rebel base. The Death Star was a warship. That is a big difference.

If we run with the assumption that signing up with the Imperial Navy makes you accountable for the actions of the people above you, then the people of Alderaan, who I am admittedly assuming here, who voted a rebellious Senator into office is accountable for his actions. Of course,there is only one penalty in the Empire for sedition against the Empire, so who can be surprised they blew up the world? One drawback to democracy is that everyone is held accountable for the decisions of the majority, one way or another. On principal, I am not arguing the point a battle station is a more valid(er) target than an entire world to most definitions and people, for the record; I very much agree with it.

I'd have to be a lunatic to try and defend the Empire from a morality standpoint, I like to think I'm sane so I'll avoid that. If you hold an entire group accountable for one action, it becomes problematic to then not allow that logic to reach fruition with another because the general consensus is they are morally correct. The Empire is harsh and despotic, but to hold every individual accountable for the actions of a couple of megalomaniacs is difficult to hold all the way through. Many people on the Death Star no doubt questioned what happened on Alderaan. Blowing up the Death Star and killing two million some odd people, only served to galvanize the people who were reeling from Alderaan with a sizable sense of loss. Officers who were wavering in their loyalty had friends, lovers and classmates exploded by a dirt farmer who rolled a bunch of Triumphs. Many of them would be subjectively good people. As a valid military target, it certainly made sense to blow it up, but you got rid of enough people who were just following orders and trusting that their chain of command had an "ultimate good" in mind that yes, you should reflect on all the lives lost and feel terrible about it.

Star Wars as a series of movies tries very hard to skirt these moral grey areas, but there is a perspective where people see the good the Empire has done, especially if they are from one of the "hundred" that didn't get blown up, subjugated and worse to make a point. Rational people can argue over the finer points of that, but we loop back around to the notion that there are lots of grey in the setting they try overly hard to distill to black and white, light side and dark side. Luke Skywalker killed over two million people. End statement. Everything else is justifying why that was the only action he could have taken, and that's fine, but he has a sizable weight to carry for the rest of his life because it's a fair guess that not all of them deserved a disintegration. Doesn't mean he did anything wrong in the grand scheme, but only someone with an extreme manifestation of an anti-social personality disorder wouldn't be kept up at night by that action and the body count that follows.

It's okay to blow them up if we made them in the first place?

That never ends well. . . . .

One word: droids.

And yet the movies show us that even the simplest droid is capable of feeling fear, affection and pain.

It's okay to blow them up if we made them in the first place?

But upon further contemplation, Jerjerod did ask Vader for "more men" so as to meet the scheduling deadline. It's not entirely clear what those men were needed for...but it's something at least.

Those murdering bunch of Rebel scum.

I'm going to take you all in the way back machine to the original question. I'll be that snooty rules lawyer for a bit here, it's not my usual style so apologies in advance, but it has a significant impact on the way the game plays so here goes

Anyone above 29 morality uses the LS pips and CAN access DS pips for a Destiny flip + conflict. Just think of the conflict as a way they can stay "grey".

However true selfish characterset will probably end up darksiders anyway.

As they are coming from the empire the could choose to start @ 29 morality to use DS pips as standard but this is usually instead of the free xp/creds.

There is no "grey" ... simple as that. Star Wars deals more with moral absolutes than not - that is to say, how to navigate such an absolutist world, not that there aren't grey sides and many more colours... pink for instance.

Also, its worth noting as Vixen does, that anyone from 30 to 100 in Morality uses LSPs, whereas only 29 and lower uses DSPs.

Also, its worth noting as Vixen does, that anyone from 30 to 100 in Morality uses LSPs, whereas only 29 and lower uses DSPs.

That is, using them without flipping Destiny Points.If you’re willing to flip DPs, then either light or dark side users can use pips of the other type — but there is a cost to using pips of the wrong type, and that cost is more than just spending the DPs.

All of these where wrong when they stated that "anyone with morality 30 or more uses Light Side Pips.

In fact if a Character falls below 30 Morality they will be required to use Dark Side Pips as their "normal" Pips until they have reached the 70 Morality Light Side Paragon status. Until that point they either have to Flip a DP and suffer strain to use White Pips (thus avoiding conflict). Or they use the Dark Side but gain Conflict.

This monumental hill they need to climb makes redemption a very difficult thing to achieve.

Rules lawyer over I return you all to your regular derailment.

Does it work in the old style too? I am all for compromises which work in both color schemes.

No:

Kyla might be great but I cannot read his/her comments without pressing 'quote' on every post, neither in the old style nor the new. And although I did comment on this a few times he/she is still using it so I have decided that I am going to miss out on whatever he/she posts.

Too bad because from what I did read it was often pretty useful...

Ah, the old "Death Star Contractors" dealio. There are so many better and more accurate examples of the broken ethics in Star Wars and yet everyone uses the Death Star one, the one that actually doesn't prove their point.

The Death Star was a military installation in a Civil War. In war, military installations are perfectly valid targets. Now, I know some will go "But it wasn't a war, the Rebels were terrorists!" Sorry, but it was a war, one side may try to dismiss the other side as such but that doesn't make it true, and in fact in Star Wars the Empire didn't do that anyway:

"You would prefer another target, a MILITARY target? Then name the system!" Moff Tarkin to Princess Leia

So the Moffman agrees not only that the Rebels are a MILITARY force but that Alderaan ISN'T! Proving that they targeted what they themselves consider a civilian target. WAR CRIME!

Onwards then to the point about civilian contractors working on the Death Star, the part that has been popularised by that film Clerks so must be true right? The people aboard the Death Star fall into one of three categories:

1. They are military personnel. Whatever they think of the Empire, being members of the military make them valid targets in war, sorry. War is mucky, if you have joined it for whatever reason then you cannot cry when you get shot at, simple as that.

2. They are civilian contractors, as per the 'issue' raised by Clerks. Sorry, but if you willingly take employment on a military installation for whatever reason you lose your protection as a civilian. Military installations are valid targets in war and the Death Star was a military installation. The opposing side cannot be held responsible for your choices. If you were employed without knowledge that your employer was the military and was then not given the choice to leave after arriving then see 3 below.

3. They are slaves, or are being held against their will. While unfortunate, it is not the opposing side's fault that you are being held there and are not expected to hold off on their attack as a result. There IS a war crime being committed, but it is not the attackers committing it, its the Empire for using human (or other sapient species) shields.

There are plenty of broken aesops in Star Wars, plenty of places where you can go "hang on..." but the Death Star isn't one of them. That is all.

To be honest, Marcy, the binary morality aspect is what I think went wrong with the whole thing too, and why George Lucas seems to contradict himself all the time in the OT. If you look at how the Jedi behave, and what they choose to do, it's far more aligned to Yin and Yang behaviors - With the fundamental notions of the Dark Side (oddly) being associated with the Yin influence of sustained existence (evidenced through Anakin falls being motivated by keeping loved ones alive, and Vader and the Empire's motivation to keep an Ordered universe) while the Light Side shows the creative desire of change (through the healthy life/death cycle of the Jedi and the force for revolution of the Rebellion) through the Yang.

Because he chose to put heavy Good/Evil connotations on the Force, it got confusing to look at exclusively, and subsequent people ran with alternate ideas to what George considered the fundamental focus.

(Aieee, my eyes are melting! The pink, it burnsss...!)

But srsly, yeah, it's an odd mix of Abrahamic good and evil, and the conflicting Eastern spirituality. It seemed to contradict itself all the time.

That is the problem when writing fictional religious texts and spiritual dogma's.

Wait all religious texts are fictional...

I guess that is why they conflict so much in themselves as well!

I'm going to take you all in the way back machine to the original question. I'll be that snooty rules lawyer for a bit here, it's not my usual style so apologies in advance, but it has a significant impact on the way the game plays so here goes

Anyone above 29 morality uses the LS pips and CAN access DS pips for a Destiny flip + conflict. Just think of the conflict as a way they can stay "grey".

However true selfish characterset will probably end up darksiders anyway.

As they are coming from the empire the could choose to start @ 29 morality to use DS pips as standard but this is usually instead of the free xp/creds.

There is no "grey" ... simple as that. Star Wars deals more with moral absolutes than not - that is to say, how to navigate such an absolutist world, not that there aren't grey sides and many more colours... pink for instance.

Also, its worth noting as Vixen does, that anyone from 30 to 100 in Morality uses LSPs, whereas only 29 and lower uses DSPs.

Also, its worth noting as Vixen does, that anyone from 30 to 100 in Morality uses LSPs, whereas only 29 and lower uses DSPs.

That is, using them without flipping Destiny Points.If you’re willing to flip DPs, then either light or dark side users can use pips of the other type — but there is a cost to using pips of the wrong type, and that cost is more than just spending the DPs.

All of these where wrong when they stated that "anyone with morality 30 or more uses Light Side Pips.

In fact if a Character falls below 30 Morality they will be required to use Dark Side Pips as their "normal" Pips until they have reached the 70 Morality Light Side Paragon status. Until that point they either have to Flip a DP and suffer strain to use White Pips (thus avoiding conflict). Or they use the Dark Side but gain Conflict.

This monumental hill they need to climb makes redemption a very difficult thing to achieve.

Rules lawyer over I return you all to your regular derailment.

Hello anyone who might still be interested in the original topic ,

The main problem with RAW and playing a "gray Jedi" seems to be that you can always only spend either Light OR Dark Side Force Pips without Destiny Point, regardless of what makes sense in the situation.

In order to cater to those interested in "walking the line", I/you/someone might consider the following houserule, that allows for a more lenient option of spending light/dark pips, while still being (IMO) balanced.

Houserule: A force user between 30 - 70 Morality may spend either dark OR light side pips without spending Strain and a Destiny Point. They must decide which side of the force they are trying to use BEFORE they throw their Force Dice. They can still use pips different from their choice by suffering Strain and spending a Destiny Point. When deciding which side of the force they intend to tap into, the player should take their character's emotinal state into consideration. Are they calm and concentrated? Then they should try use the light side and would suffer Strain (+Destiny Point) for using light side pips. Are they angry, fearful or craving for cookies? Then they should try to tap into the dark side and and would suffer Strain (+Destiny Point) if light side pips come up and are used. This might actually lead to or inspire some great roleplaying.

Morality >70 can only use the light side without penalty until they reach Morality <50. Morality <30 can use only dark side until they reach Morality >50.

Cheers and may the Bendu be with you

GM Fred

The thing with this is that mathematically you always want to use light-side pips. The lightside IS stronger side of the dice. The darkside is only easier to use when you still can use dark and light side pips together, which requires the use of destiny points, but is otherwise indeed super easy.

In this contest a gray knight would be just happily using destiny points, dark and light side together and not be bothered by the conflict he gains. Rightfully so too, because keeping up morality in the 30-70 area is easy. It is actually still not hard to stay above 70 while still using constantly the dark side. At least if you are using the darkside only when it matters and peel your oranges still just with light side pips.

I'm going to take you all in the way back machine to the original question. I'll be that snooty rules lawyer for a bit here, it's not my usual style so apologies in advance, but it has a significant impact on the way the game plays so here goes

Anyone above 29 morality uses the LS pips and CAN access DS pips for a Destiny flip + conflict. Just think of the conflict as a way they can stay "grey".

However true selfish characterset will probably end up darksiders anyway.

As they are coming from the empire the could choose to start @ 29 morality to use DS pips as standard but this is usually instead of the free xp/creds.

There is no "grey" ... simple as that. Star Wars deals more with moral absolutes than not - that is to say, how to navigate such an absolutist world, not that there aren't grey sides and many more colours... pink for instance.

Also, its worth noting as Vixen does, that anyone from 30 to 100 in Morality uses LSPs, whereas only 29 and lower uses DSPs.

Also, its worth noting as Vixen does, that anyone from 30 to 100 in Morality uses LSPs, whereas only 29 and lower uses DSPs.

That is, using them without flipping Destiny Points.If you’re willing to flip DPs, then either light or dark side users can use pips of the other type — but there is a cost to using pips of the wrong type, and that cost is more than just spending the DPs.

All of these where wrong when they stated that "anyone with morality 30 or more uses Light Side Pips.

In fact if a Character falls below 30 Morality they will be required to use Dark Side Pips as their "normal" Pips until they have reached the 70 Morality Light Side Paragon status. Until that point they either have to Flip a DP and suffer strain to use White Pips (thus avoiding conflict). Or they use the Dark Side but gain Conflict.

This monumental hill they need to climb makes redemption a very difficult thing to achieve.

Rules lawyer over I return you all to your regular derailment.

Hello anyone who might still be interested in the original topic ,

The main problem with RAW and playing a "gray Jedi" seems to be that you can always only spend either Light OR Dark Side Force Pips without Destiny Point, regardless of what makes sense in the situation.

In order to cater to those interested in "walking the line", I/you/someone might consider the following houserule, that allows for a more lenient option of spending light/dark pips, while still being (IMO) balanced.

Houserule: A force user between 30 - 70 Morality may spend either dark OR light side pips without spending Strain and a Destiny Point. They must decide which side of the force they are trying to use BEFORE they throw their Force Dice. They can still use pips different from their choice by suffering Strain and spending a Destiny Point. When deciding which side of the force they intend to tap into, the player should take their character's emotinal state into consideration. Are they calm and concentrated? Then they should try use the light side and would suffer Strain (+Destiny Point) for using light side pips. Are they angry, fearful or craving for cookies? Then they should try to tap into the dark side and and would suffer Strain (+Destiny Point) if light side pips come up and are used. This might actually lead to or inspire some great roleplaying.

Morality >70 can only use the light side without penalty until they reach Morality <50. Morality <30 can use only dark side until they reach Morality >50.

Cheers and may the Bendu be with you

GM Fred

Great points, and a great potential solution as well. The way the die are marked, you'll tend to roll more dark than light. It seems like it's this RPG's version of the "power of the dark side". It may be an unfair generalization, but my experience is from a player stand point unless they have a specific non-binary Force Tradition they want to go with, wanting to be a "Grey Jedi" just means they want to tap into some of the benefits without the harsh drawbacks of being a Dark sider. Though in this system I tend to think the penalty for being one is markedly less than some other iterations. Saga was a lot of fun when I had to turn in my Jedi character because he used Force lightning one too many times.

I think either way you're left with some form of house rule/GM adjudication to handle this. I'd likely just go with the character being on "recovery" from being dark to get access to dark side points without spending a destiny point, and it would last as long as they stay in the 30-70 range, which seems reasonable for being "grey". The fact the die come up dark more often then light is the benefit there. I'd probably then adjust conflict gains based on why they were using the Force power in the first place; that should help mitigate the need to spend one session messing up people's days then next session feeding orphans to recoup the lost morality.

The thing with this is that mathematically you always want to use light-side pips. The lightside IS stronger side of the dice. The darkside is only easier to use when you still can use dark and light side pips together, which requires the use of destiny points, but is otherwise indeed super easy.

In this contest a gray knight would be just happily using destiny points, dark and light side together and not be bothered by the conflict he gains. Rightfully so too, because keeping up morality in the 30-70 area is easy. It is actually still not hard to stay above 70 while still using constantly the dark side. At least if you are using the darkside only when it matters and peel your oranges still just with light side pips.

Huh. I'll have to take another look at an actual die. I've used a gaming table program too long potentially. I had the die sides recorded as 2 sides having 2 light pips, 3 sides with 1 light pip, 1 side with 2 dark pips and 6 sides with 1 dark pip. Which struck me as making a dark side pip a lot more likely to come up.

"Is the dark side stronger?" - "No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive."

The Force Die shows a total of 5 light sides, 3 of those have 2 pips. It shows 7 dark sides, 1 with two pips.

So the chances of rolling dark are higher (7/12) than rolling light (5/12). But when you roll light, the chances are 3/5 for two pips, while when you roll dark, the chances are 1/7 for two pips.

There is a total of 8 dark and 8 light pips on the die, so when you roll enough dice the amount of dark and light should be the same.

The thing with this is that mathematically you always want to use light-side pips. The lightside IS stronger side of the dice. The darkside is only easier to use when you still can use dark and light side pips together, which requires the use of destiny points, but is otherwise indeed super easy.

In this contest a gray knight would be just happily using destiny points, dark and light side together and not be bothered by the conflict he gains. Rightfully so too, because keeping up morality in the 30-70 area is easy. It is actually still not hard to stay above 70 while still using constantly the dark side. At least if you are using the darkside only when it matters and peel your oranges still just with light side pips.

Huh. I'll have to take another look at an actual die. I've used a gaming table program too long potentially. I had the die sides recorded as 2 sides having 2 light pips, 3 sides with 1 light pip, 1 side with 2 dark pips and 6 sides with 1 dark pip. Which struck me as making a dark side pip a lot more likely to come up.

"Is the dark side stronger?" - "No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive."

The Force Die shows a total of 5 light sides, 3 of those have 2 pips. It shows 7 dark sides, 1 with two pips.

So the chances of rolling dark are higher (7/12) than rolling light (5/12). But when you roll light, the chances are 3/5 for two pips, while when you roll dark, the chances are 1/7 for two pips.

There is a total of 8 dark and 8 light pips on the die, so when you roll enough dice the amount of dark and light should be the same.

Thanks for that, I now have something to correct on that framework. Explains quite a bit about how the rolls have seemed unfairly dark biased, too.

Uggghhh... the Grey Jedi thing. Seriously, the way I always see this approached is just... bad.

People are not True Neutral (and by the way, thank you D&D for giving us that obnoxious old alignment axis. It was one of the few things improved in 4th edition, and then they went right back with 5th). Nobody really thinks there's some sort of balance point between Good and Evil. There are different arguments about "what is right?" Those who seek "balance" don't seek a balance between Good and Evil. Good comes from balance, Evil comes from imbalance.

In the case of a "Grey Jedi," the people who would be called that are going to fall into two groups. First will be those who aspire to the Jedi principles, but when push comes to shove, they just can't maintain it. Whether out of fear or anger they just can't live up to their own ideals. These guys probably have a lot of therapy sessions back at the Jedi temple.

The others would be the "heretics." Folks who disagree with certain aspects of Jedi teachings. Depending on the points in question, these guys might be Light Side Paragons, or Dark Siders who still call themselves Jedi. Considering the size of the Galaxy, and how often the Jedi Council had their heads in the (AHEM!) sand, I can't help but think that countless small Jedi heresies existed throughout the Republic and survived into the Imperial era. For those that "skirt the Dark Side," you need to ask yourself "how and why?" Probably the easiest approach is to have them reject the "Ends Do Not Justify The Means" philosophy that The Force works under. Most days, doing the right thing leads to good results. Jedi are tested when doing the "right thing" leads to bad results. A "Grey Jedi" may be one who fully recognizes that an action will lead him to the Dark Side, but decides that it's more evil to put his own spiritual well being ahead of the results. Murdering warlords and things like that.

I fully support players that want to have their characters get dangerously close to the Dark Side. One of mine is saying, "Oh I want him to be a Jedi, just, you know, not the best Jedi." That's great. It's fun. But the character should have some reason other than "seeking a balance between balance and imbalance." What's his flaw that tempts him to the Dark Side? Is it a moral flaw? Philosophical flaw? Emotional flaw? Does he tout the wisdom and temperance of the Jedi, and then Unleash when he's in danger? Or does he just think he's strong-willed enough to get away with doing what he wants?

It seems to me to be a lot of noise over nothing. Are you below 29 morality? Are you above 71? Are you making an effort to get to either standing? No? Congratulations - you are now a Gray Jedi. Boom, done.

Congratulations - you are now a Gray Jedi Force User. Boom, done.

Fixed that for you.

Kyla's post made me remember a thought experiment I had a while back regarding the Force and morality, curious to see what other people think.

A Jedi is meditating in the temple when he has a horrible realization: "To give into emotions is the Dark Side, but heinous deeds can be, and often ARE, committed without the slightest bit of passion or hatred. Can one call upon the Light to do such terrible acts?" The more he thinks about it, the more disturbed he becomes until he decides there is only one way to find out. He gets up, walks outside, and clears his mind of emotion.

Then, when he is calm and at peace, he uses the Force to pick up a speeder truck and drop it on a crowd full of innocent civilians.

He does this without malice or hatred, passion or fear, anger or love. The most that he feels is a vague hope that he won't be able to, that's he's not about to become a mass murderer. Going by what we know of the Force, he SHOULD be able to draw on the Light, and (being calm) the dark side would elude him. So the question becomes: what happens? Does it work? Why or why not? Was it somehow the Dark Side anyways, even if it was completely passionless and selfless? Why?

From watching all of the films, the Clone Wars, playing many of the video games and reading a lot of EU stuff back in the day, I've come to this conclusion...

The duality of the Force comes into play on multiple levels. On one level, there is the way that you use the Force. There are things that you do which draw you along one path of the Force or the other. And there are things that the Force do to you.

The whole emotions thing is a part of it but not all of it. Using the Light Side effectively requires calm. Notice that nowhere in any of the stories (at least nothing canon) it explicitly states that emotion is evil, or that it will ruin a Jedi. What generally happens is that a Jedi who cannot calm themselves struggles to tap into the Light Side. Recall what Luke went through on Dagobah, he had to empty himself of turmoil, focus, and allow the Force to happen. When he tried too hard, he failed (which is what Yoda warned him about). When he let himself be distracted with worry about his friends, or his fear of failure, or his frustration at how difficult the training was, he failed (dropping rocks and so forth).

Conversely, the Dark Side is easier to tap into when you are emotional. When you have that adrenaline rush of fear, when you are really angry, when you have a strong will and desire to get what you want, that allows you to tap more strongly into the Dark Side and makes the connection stronger. It is easier and faster because it works as a feedback loop; you seek power, and the Dark Side gives it to you, which fuels your pride and gives you a greater rush of emotion, and allows you to tap into more, and so on. That is why Palpatine urged Anakin and Luke to dwell upon their feelings and use them. Even love can be used to tap into the Dark Side more strongly, because if you think about it, it leads to the strongest forms of fear, pride, anger, jealousy, greed, and so on.

Being calm or emotional doesn't automatically make you good or evil, or determine which side of the Force you tap into. It just makes it easier to draw on one side of the Force or the other.

When you are Force-Sensitive, the actions you take will affect you. Whatever your intentions, committing evil will allow the Dark Side to take hold of you. Combine that with the fact that using the Dark Side most effectively will entail embracing your emotions and you're bound to lose control eventually. You will even lose your identity, as Anakin did when he fell and became Vader. It's not just the Force, it's the choices and actions you make. Nobody has ever been shown to fall simply by sitting alone in a room and exploring their emotions or tapping into the Force. They fall by committing horrible acts. And they redeem themselves with self-sacrifice and heroism.

Finally, tapping into one side of the Force or the other does seem to change people. I'm not sure if it's the Force influencing what actions you take, or the actions you take drawing you down one side of the Force or the other. It's kind of a chicken-and-egg thing. Maybe it's both at the same time. The Force is very powerful, it can influence your mind and alter your body. It's bound to eventually change your soul as well.

I pretty much envision the Force as being like a faucet with a hot valve and cold valve. You can pull on one or the other, and water will flow either way, but it will be either hot or cold depending on which valve you turn. The state of mind you have when you draw on the Force doesn't determine which valve is turned, but it does determine how easy it is to turn one or the other.

I'm not entirely sure what practical difference there is between the Dark and Light sides of the Force. Non-canonical sources like video games often show that one side can do certain things and the other can do different things, but of course those are non-canonical. Based on my observations of the films, and what Force-users of the Dark and Light do on a regular basis, it seems like effects are divided this way:

• Light Side: Mind trick (I don't recall ever seeing a Sith or other Dark Side practitioner doing a Mind Trick, not even in Clone Wars)

• Dark Side: Force Choke, Force Lightning (using either power seems to always be a red flag showing that the person is a Dark Side practitioner)

• Either side: Movement-based powers (lifting or throwing objects/people, leaping, everyone does this), healing (Yoda being healed in Clone Wars, Nightsisters healing people and even bringing them back to life)

The bottom line though is that the Jedi in your example is seriously committing an evil act and it doesn't matter which side of the Force he's intending to tap into when levitating that speeder, or what his state of mind is, that atrocity is going to lead him further along the Dark Side path. If he is a good person he won't be able to do it at all, and if he does succeed it will be with great difficulty and he will be filled with remorse afterward. If he is able to do it, especially if it's not that difficult, then he must have been pretty close to the Dark Side to begin with. Considering that he's doing this just to satisfy his curiosity this is one seriously screwed-up individual.

Kyla might be great but I cannot read his/her comments without pressing 'quote' on every post, neither in the old style nor the new. And although I did comment on this a few times he/she is still using it so I have decided that I am going to miss out on whatever he/she posts.

Too bad because from what I did read it was often pretty useful...

Wow, now I feel as bad as I did when my daughter's chameleon died and instead of taking the time to discuss the ramifications of mortality with her I just got her a new chameleon before she came home.

*looks fondly at the colored font button as "the time of my life" plays in the background and sniffles* Good Bye beautiful pink font.