Love the bit about crystals, Kyla! I had a chat with Phee about this recently, about how a Sensitive's 'colour' really determines how they think, what their lightsabers look like, and why the three Jedi orders (or those taught by ex-Jedi) have the colours that they do.

In fact, consider your lovely descriptions of the colours 'stolen'! (Apart from the fact that yellow represents something darker; our Sentinel Order is drawn from the most ruthless and amoral of the 'dark' Jedi...)

Added to that, we decided that purple is the 'special snowflake' colour. Revan and Mace Windu had this colour, and if you 'think in purple' you're either a super-confident person destined for greatness, or an arrogant grandstander who thinks he's better than everyone else. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference.

White is favoured by non-Jedi, with connotations of balance, zen or purity.

I suppose there are other colours like pink or orange. We haven't decided if 'darksabers' are A Thing yet, but if they are, I'm betting the Sith would give their supplies of black eyeshadow and Bullet For My Valentine CDs to get hold of one!

Thanks Donovan! That means a lot coming from you!

To be brutally honest, I chalk the line up to George Lucas throwing a joke into the movies, but the moment serves to both your view and to mine without being mutually exclusive - one can abhor the situation for making him use such a piece of "uncivilized tech" at the same time one reinforces the opinion that it is, indeed, uncivilized. I think both speak more to how much we put into it more than what the line was necessarily intended to be.

Well, Obi-Wan did say in ANH that a lightsaber was a weapon from more civilized times.

ALSO it appears that once again I have run out of positive votes ( does this mean that I still have negative ones?) sooo.....

Everyone on the last two pages, consider all of your posts liked by me.

I need to talk to someone about the limitedness of light side destiny points around here.......

So instead of the Bene Gesserit, they're the Bene Jedi-rit?

Kyla, Marcy, I love all of your posts on this thread! Great points! I've been gone for a couple of days and I find that this has shot to 9 pages with a lot of help from both of you.

Consider yourselves permanently adopted into my family!

Edit: I like that one too, Max. Just can't show it yet....

I want to point out that in the father, daughter and son arc the father has balance between dark and light and more importantly the son is not evil. Chaotic, passionate, dangerous for the fabric of space itself. all of that, but not evil. He would have destroyed the sith and their evil, he would have prevented Anakin from becoming Vader, etc

He would just have done whatever he liked without restrain.

I think it is unfair to claim that Lucas did not left areas of grey, just because the Sith as darkside users seemed evil and rotten to the core under Palpatine's influence. Heck, even Maul has imho quite a lot good sides while being a dark sider trough and trough.

But hey, I like midichlorians and mitochondrions. My mitochondrions are very likely over 3,000 even. ;-)

He would just have done whatever he liked without restrain.

That *is* evil.

He would just have done whatever he liked without restrain.

That *is* evil.

It's just freedom from a certain point of view.

I want to point out that in the father, daughter and son arc the father has balance between dark and light and more importantly the son is not evil. Chaotic, passionate, dangerous for the fabric of space itself. all of that, but not evil. He would have destroyed the sith and their evil, he would have prevented Anakin from becoming Vader, etc

He would just have done whatever he liked without restrain.

"The Son" was evil, often in that "dark side = kicks puppies" sort of way, look at his actual actions -- and doing whatever you want without regard to the effects on others is one of the fastest, surest ways to end up doing immoral things.

But balance or not is irrelevant to my objections, which center mainly around the starting concept of "personifying" the force as living entities, and the whole idea that the Force itself has a light or dark side as an objective aspect.

K, but you have to drive to Dallas to pick me up!

For those of us already living in Texas, that could be arranged! ;)

Regardless of the mythology, in most actual situations, the "modern ranged weapon" is superior. There's a reason modern militaries issue firearms and not swords to their soldiers. And despite what was said upthread, you can't actually just pick up "a gun" and use it effectively, this actually takes a degree of training and practice. I know RPGs rarely reflect that, but it's clearly true once one looks at the lack of success untrained or poorly trained people have actually hitting a target beyond a short distance, even a target that's just sitting still and not firing back.

With respect, there are those of us who are “naturals” with firearms. We wouldn’t necessarily perform well under combat situations, but give us a weapon that is MOA accurate out to 300m, and we can put the first few rounds in the space of a dime into a target at that range.

And that’s with the first few rounds that we have ever fired out of that weapon. Been there, done that with a properly sighted-in M14.

OTOH, I do agree that there is a lot of training required to be good with firearms under combat situations.

If one wanted a reason for Jedi to carry a lightsaber instead of a blaster, then look to the symbolism of "peacekeepers and mediators" not carrying a blaster, but instead carrying a weapon that can defend against blaster fire, and has no (or little) ranged offensive capacity. Plus, to the Republic at large in the era between the fall of the Sith as an open threat and the start of the Empire, the lightsaber is a badge of office as much as it is a weapon, a symbol that one is a Jedi.

And a Jedi can do so much more than just swing the “laser sword”.

It's worth noting that in early concept notes, Lucas had everyone carrying "laser swords", not just Jedi. If troops are going to be doing a lot of fighting in close quarters on ships, where stray blaster fire could be a real hazard to the ship, there's some basis for that idea.

Was it Lucas that had them all armed with “laser swords”, or was it Ralph McQuarrie?

Because I’ve seen some of the early artwork, where what would later become Stormtroopers were armed with “laser swords”, just like the blonde-haired guy with beard and a headband.

We changed a bunch of things about the lightsabers to make them more iconic.

Firstly, they are very rare, even for Jedi. About 30% to 60% of Jedi have them, depending on their Order(Guardians are more likely to have them). Each of them is a powerful weapon with a storied history - they are like high-end magic weapons in D&D, your Holy Avengers, Vorpal Blades and Frost Brands.

Secondly, they don't have an on-switch and are activated by thought, making them a Sensitive-only weapon. It's a bond between the crystal and the user and they need to be attuned before they'll work. So smugglers wishing to cut open a space kangaroo have to use knives like the rest of us poor mundanes. It's a spiritual thing - one player described his 'saber as a 'singular need for battle made real'. Another is afraid of hers, feeling the crystal has 'a terrible thirst, one that might drink the world dry'.

Thirdly, it's very much a symbol of the Jedi Order. Other traditions might have Force-weapons, but lightsabers are pretty much a Jedi/Sith thing. Having one marks you as an enemy in any territory except Jedi space... where it marks you as an apostate (which is even worse...)

Marcy, it's always fun hearing about your campaign setting! Plus that, it seems quite self-consistent, which is appealing to me—and which is something, I'm sure, we all wished Lucas' Star Wars saga had been from the beginning.

That way we wouldn't have to defend ridiculous lines like "Somehow, I've always known."

Thanks, Away (I'm never sure what to call you but I enjoy your posts).

The intention was to rework everything from a fresh perspective, and not be hidebound by 35+ years of content, or have to consider marketing and a wider audience. We didn't set out to slay sacred cows, but neither would we shirk from that if they needed slaying. Also, I wanted to preserve the themes and motifs of the originals as far as possible; I had no wish to do WH40K or 'Game of Thrones in Space'. (Though much to my chagrin, I probably did at times!)

Consistency was very much desired by everyone involved!

Thirdly, it's very much a symbol of the Jedi Order. Other traditions might have Force-weapons, but lightsabers are pretty much a Jedi/Sith thing. Having one marks you as an enemy in any territory except Jedi space... where it marks you as an apostate (which is even worse...)

Well, if you look at the official Canon symbol of the Jedi Order, that thing in the middle is clearly a lightsaber:

So, yeah — I think lightsabers are definitely a symbol of the Jedi order.

He would just have done whatever he liked without restrain.

That *is* evil.

What if what he liked was to feed and clothe orphaned children?

Well, if you look at the official Canon symbol of the Jedi Order, that thing in the middle is clearly a lightsaber:

So, yeah — I think lightsabers are definitely a symbol of the Jedi order.

In most SW games, 'Force user' is pretty much synonymous with 'Jedi'... but that isn't so in the MarcyVerse, the Jedi are just the biggest, most belligerent boys in the playground

There are a lot of other Force traditions with their own beliefs and mannerisms, many of which don't even call it 'The Force'. The Emperor's Hands, the Alliance Emergents, the Navigators, the Baran-Do Sages, the Nightsisters, etc.

But for us, the Jedi tend to be the ones who use Lightsabers - other traditions can have their own Force weapons though. The Jedi would very much like to 'copyright' the weapons - heck, they'd very much like to copyright The Force itself ! - but it's a big galaxy and their reach is not limitless.

Our PCs who use the iconic weapons, then, are the ones who were once Jedi, or were taught by Jedi, or taught by someone who was taught by Jedi. Kirana was taught by Ben as a secret pupil because she reminded him so much of Anakin. Rhalia was taught by Lucas Lars, who was taught by Ben before their falling out two decades past.

So yeah, a MarcyVerse thing. We still use a lot of the symbols though, as the Jedi icon is very cool.

Well, if you look at the official Canon symbol of the Jedi Order, that thing in the middle is clearly a lightsaber:

So, yeah — I think lightsabers are definitely a symbol of the Jedi order.

In most SW games, 'Force user' is pretty much synonymous with 'Jedi'... but that isn't so in the MarcyVerse, the Jedi are just the biggest, most belligerent boys in the playground

There are a lot of other Force traditions with their own beliefs and mannerisms, many of which don't even call it 'The Force'. The Emperor's Hands, the Alliance Emergents, the Navigators, the Baran-Do Sages, the Nightsisters, etc.

But for us, the Jedi tend to be the ones who use Lightsabers - other traditions can have their own Force weapons though. The Jedi would very much like to 'copyright' the weapons - heck, they'd very much like to copyright The Force itself ! - but it's a big galaxy and their reach is not limitless.

Our PCs who use the iconic weapons, then, are the ones who were once Jedi, or were taught by Jedi, or taught by someone who was taught by Jedi. Kirana was taught by Ben as a secret pupil because she reminded him so much of Anakin. Rhalia was taught by Lucas Lars, who was taught by Ben before their falling out two decades past.

So yeah, a MarcyVerse thing. We still use a lot of the symbols though, as the Jedi icon is very cool.

I think I know the answer, but, do the MarcyVerse Jedi assert a monopoly on Force sensitives within their sphere of influence, such that they actively seek out and attempt to force these individuals into the Jedi Order, even against their will?

I sure hope not! That might get...inconvenient...

Aw, who am I kidding? It's going to be inconvenient either way!

I think I know the answer, but, do the MarcyVerse Jedi assert a monopoly on Force sensitives within their sphere of influence, such that they actively seek out and attempt to force these individuals into the Jedi Order, even against their will?

Yes, but not 'for the Evuls'. Untrained adepts are a danger to themselves and to others, in a galaxy where strange spirits and warp rifts are A Thing. The Inquisitors (essentially the Sentinel Order) looks for promising apostates and try to recruit them. If they do so, they are made padawans in one of the noble houses and treated well. If they are deemed a risk and won't convert, they could imprison or even kill them if necessary. Our Jedi aren't 'villains' though, just ruthless in protecting the galaxy. They teach and nurture the ones they recruit and it's no stigma to join the Order this way. (And some unsuitable members might be pointed towards the Sith, but they don't really recruit the way the Jedi do. They're more like a biker gang, you can join if you hang out with them and if you're cool and they like you).

The Order are not monsters, or sneering, mustache-twirling bad guys... They are heroes (of a sort) who have successfully defended the galaxy from terrible threats for almost two thousand years... at the risk to their own lives. They are ruthless when they must be, but are not cynical in their duty. They are patriarchal Knights Templar, who have returned from a twenty-year Exodus, fighting unnameable horrors on the Far Rim (Tyranids, Vong, whatever!) and have returned to find the galaxy locked in a brutal civil war and their Republic undermined. They are trying to restore order, as they see it. They're just very much jerks while doing it - they believe that their way is the only way, and that anyone who opposes 2000+ years of their guidance must be the Bad Guys. In all honesty, they are a group made of and made for Sensitives, and many join them gladly. Arrogant and superior though they can be, they have considerable goodwill in many parts of the galaxy for their patronage. (However, it's also notable that all the really good guys from the films - Ben, Lars, Yoda - are no longer part of the Order...)

Also their reach is far from infinite. Apostates on the fringe can join another tradition, or just live away from their reach. The Empire gives them a wide berth (their success rate in apprehending them is close to zero), the Alliance will try to recruit them for the Emergent Project, and they can pretty much name their price in the Shadow Collective, as any crime-lord worth the name will want such a bodyguard.

In short, it was a nice twist to bring them back as antagonists when F&D came out (our first story arc - Episode One, if you like - was titled 'Revenge of the Jedi'). But making them 'evil' seemed to go too far. This way, they are interesting and multi-faceted opponents, who are most often right than wrong, much to everyone's annoyance.

I wasn't expecting them to be evil, just an organization that believe in the absolute rightness of their mission and their methods. Such people sometimes (often?) do things that others object to, and sometimes things that others (and we) would deem wrong, in their effort to do The Right Thing, and sometimes their unpopular methods really are necessary, or the least bad option.

- (double post)

You nailed it, Max.

I feel it makes them excellent antagonists. Two-thousand years of saving the world didn't happen by accident.

For me, their MarcyVerse decision to favour Tarkin over Palpatine says a lot. They accepted Tarkin's offer to bring down the latter, in return for giving him a free run at conquering the galaxy while they were on the Exodus. They did this because the Empire would be much weaker under an elderly general than a powerful renegade Sensitive. They knew the costs, and did it anyway. And twenty years after Alderaan blew, Tarkin's Empire is in tatters, and the Order is reclaiming it's old strongholds and trying to restore the Republic. Sometimes the end justifies the means.

They are not perfect, though. Alderaan was Officially The Worst Thing Ever and they didn't see it until it was too late, believing Tarkin wasn't so crazy as to actually use his superweapon. The equilibrium of the galaxy got screwed over because they miscalculated. They didn't take into consideration the rise of two new powerful independent factions opposed to the Republic - the Systems Alliance and the Shadow Collective. They woefully underestimate Lucas Lars and his Followers of the Temple. They alienated their best in Ben, and pensioned Yoda off to Dagobah when he warned against their aggressive ways.

In a galaxy of moral greys, right and wrong, good and evil, sometimes depend on your point of view. 'Light' and 'Dark' side measure something else entirely to this, and are more a measure of order, law, calm against chaos, emotion and passion. And everyone has both, of course.

You nailed it, Max.

I feel it makes them excellent antagonists. Two-thousand years of saving the world didn't happen by accident.

For me, their MarcyVerse decision to favour Tarkin over Palpatine says a lot. They accepted Tarkin's offer to bring down the latter, in return for giving him a free run at conquering the galaxy while they were on the Exodus. They did this because the Empire would be much weaker under an elderly general than a powerful renegade Sensitive. They knew the costs, and did it anyway. And twenty years after Alderaan blew, Tarkin's Empire is in tatters, and the Order is reclaiming it's old strongholds and trying to restore the Republic. Sometimes the end justifies the means.

In a galaxy of moral greys, right and wrong, good and evil, sometimes depend on your point of view. 'Light' and 'Dark' side measure something else entirely to this, and are more a measure of order, law, calm against chaos, emotion and passion. And everyone has both, of course.

This is more and more interesting... Tarkin, huh?

I like the fact that the destruction of Alderaan actually meant something, as opposed to being reduced to an anecdote by Act III of the movie it happened in...

I think I know the answer, but, do the MarcyVerse Jedi assert a monopoly on Force sensitives within their sphere of influence, such that they actively seek out and attempt to force these individuals into the Jedi Order, even against their will?

Yes, but not 'for the Evuls'. Untrained adepts are a danger to themselves and to others, in a galaxy where strange spirits and warp rifts are A Thing. The Inquisitors (essentially the Sentinel Order) looks for promising apostates and try to recruit them. If they do so, they are made padawans in one of the noble houses and treated well. If they are deemed a risk and won't convert, they could imprison or even kill them if necessary. Our Jedi aren't 'villains' though, just ruthless in protecting the galaxy. They teach and nurture the ones they recruit and it's no stigma to join the Order this way. (And some unsuitable members might be pointed towards the Sith, but they don't really recruit the way the Jedi do. They're more like a biker gang, you can join if you hang out with them and if you're cool and they like you).

The Order are not monsters, or sneering, mustache-twirling bad guys... They are heroes (of a sort) who have successfully defended the galaxy from terrible threats for almost two thousand years... at the risk to their own lives. They are ruthless when they must be, but are not cynical in their duty. They are patriarchal Knights Templar, who have returned from a twenty-year Exodus, fighting unnameable horrors on the Far Rim (Tyranids, Vong, whatever!) and have returned to find the galaxy locked in a brutal civil war and their Republic undermined. They are trying to restore order, as they see it. They're just very much jerks while doing it - they believe that their way is the only way, and that anyone who opposes 2000+ years of their guidance must be the Bad Guys. In all honesty, they are a group made of and made for Sensitives, and many join them gladly. Arrogant and superior though they can be, they have considerable goodwill in many parts of the galaxy for their patronage. (However, it's also notable that all the really good guys from the films - Ben, Lars, Yoda - are no longer part of the Order...)

Also their reach is far from infinite. Apostates on the fringe can join another tradition, or just live away from their reach. The Empire gives them a wide berth (their success rate in apprehending them is close to zero), the Alliance will try to recruit them for the Emergent Project, and they can pretty much name their price in the Shadow Collective, as any crime-lord worth the name will want such a bodyguard.

In short, it was a nice twist to bring them back as antagonists when F&D came out (our first story arc - Episode One, if you like - was titled 'Revenge of the Jedi'). But making them 'evil' seemed to go too far. This way, they are interesting and multi-faceted opponents, who are most often right than wrong, much to everyone's annoyance.

Reminds me of the Dragon Age RPG, which had my all-time favorite way of dealing with mages and magic.

The more I hear of this Marcy-verse, the more I like it!