I question the logic that a character isn't a hero because he doesn't want to join the Alliance to Restore the Republic. One could legitimately say that restoring a model of galactic governance that eventually fell into corruption and self-service may not be the best course for the civilized galaxy.

Regardless, really push this player to explain why a Grey Jedi is the role he wants to take. Being a self-serving a-hole rarely works out well in a game that requires cooperative action among all players. Just like in life!

***** WARNING: MARCY THREAD DERAILMENT IMMINENT!!!*****

I totally read "How to handle gay Jedi" and was looking forward to

Meh, it's 2016 and we're all tolerant here. I say just let them marry. Same for interspecies Jedi. It doesn't harm anyone, and closeted Jedi aren't any use to anybody. That way lies the Dark Side.

(Aleyna here is an ex-Jedi, so that still counts, right?)

***** MARCY THREAD DERAILMENT OVER: BACK TO YOUR SCHEDULED DISCUSSION!!!!!*****

I always understood that Force and Destiny could be played at OT timeline. Seems like that is false. So, what's the official timeline of Force and Destiny?

Well, F&D can actually be set in any timezone. By default, it assumes post OT, with Luke being the last known Jedi.

But you yourself set the time for this game, with the statement:

Basic premise of the campaign is that PCs were working at the death star, and when Alderaan was destroyed, they thought themselves: "this is too much for us. F the empire". And decide to desert when death star enters Yavin. PCs don't want to join rebellion, they want to be true neutral a-holes, who only think about their own good.

So, that is clearly during or soon after ANH, and we know a good deal about that timeframe.

And there’s certainly plenty of space to do that kind of game, but mostly in an EotE setting as opposed to F&D.

Given the setting as you described it, AoR would actually make the most sense for the character origins, but then transition into EotE if they truly want to be totally selfish and not be a part of the Rebellion or the Empire.

Or, you could just use the Imperial background as fluff, and go straight into EotE.

You could try to build your own Selfish/Edge-themed F&D campaign, but I think a lot of the F&D material will assume that you take either the side of the Light or the Dark, as opposed to staying selfish and Edge-themed.

People here have already covered it, but I'll lend my voice to the mix:

"Grey" is a concept that can't really have anything but a narrative effect in this system. Even in its few "legitimate" iterations in canon, the expression was only used to qualify where an individual might have been on a spectrum of either Jedi or Sith characteristics. Some Jedi who were undeniably Jedi used the Dark side (Anakin, Quinlan Vos), but were still, at the end of the day, Jedi; some Sith used their powers to heal people (Plagueis), but were still Sith.

The reason for all this has nothing to do with standalone mechanics for a "middle road" and everything to do with the moral absolutes that determine consequences for action. Morality in FFG's Star Wars, to borrow the Einstein expression, "doesn't play dice": actions are either good or evil. Intentions sometimes don't matter -- after all, Anakin often had the best of intentions when he committed horrible acts.

So there's no actual way to measure "neutrality", as there is no "third force quality" -- there's only the Dark and the Light. The push-pull effect between these is intended to be reductive, because neither side is meant to be easy. Navigating the tension between good and bad actions may result in a character who constantly waffles at the 50 morality level, but that doesn't mean that their actions suddenly stop becoming either good or evil, light or dark. And from a narrative perspective, it isn't a matter of qualifying someone as an unequivocal "good guy" or "bad guy" -- the Force and consequences are complicated, and it isn't possible for every player to foresee how they will impact the lives of others around them. (EDIT: Qui Gon, for example, was very unconventional and has been described in some corners as having "grey" characteristics -- but nothing about his unconventionality stopped his actions from being judged one way or the other, simply because of a label. But he was also a Jedi, even when he did things that were not unequivocally good. I'd probably rate Qui Gon somewhere in the 60s-level for Morality -- he's more good than not, but not always by much.)

***** WARNING: MARCY THREAD DERAILMENT IMMINENT!!!*****

I totally read "How to handle gay Jedi" and was looking forward to

Meh, it's 2016 and we're all tolerant here. I say just let them marry. Same for interspecies Jedi. It doesn't harm anyone, and closeted Jedi aren't any use to anybody. That way lies the Dark Side.

(Aleyna here is an ex-Jedi, so that still counts, right?)

***** MARCY THREAD DERAILMENT OVER: BACK TO YOUR SCHEDULED DISCUSSION!!!!!*****

But to actually answer the question: you have to do it carefully. Unlike others here, as it appears, I personally love the idea of Balance between light and dark. My personal belief was best expressed a couple of years ago by one Charles Xavier: "True power lies between rage and serenity."

But the truth of the matter, as it applies here, is the game is not built for it. I would personally re-tune your thinking: Balance is hard to achieve, but grants large benefits. So, if someone draws their power from Balance, they use white pips, and need to spend a Destiny Point and take strain to use black pips. If they rise above 70 Morality or fall below 30, either way they flip to using black pips normally until their Morality rises/falls to the far side of 50 again.

Here, black pips don't represent the dark side, they represent "extremes," whether that's extreme of emotion or extreme of non-emotion. White pips represent balance.

Oh man, I just cannot get over how much that picture makes my heart melt ~ You need to be careful, Marcy! You can't just go plastering things with dangerously high levels of "AAAAAWWWWWW!!!" everywhere! What's wrong with you ?

Uh, not just dangerously high levels of "AAAAAWWWWWW!!!”

Also, dangerously high levels of

“TWO HAWT CHICKS KISSING!!!"

Now, if you’ll excuse me, I need to go … well … nevermind.

Thread = derailed.

My work here is done!

Desslok, I set 'em up, you finish 'em off

Hey hey hey! I went back and at least added to the discussion! I'm not a...total...disruptive influence!

EDIT: You plebian, Brad . They're totally, completely, hopelessly in love, that's what makes it "AAAAAWWWWWW!!!" Which is so much better than just hot chicks kissing!

Kyla's post made me remember a thought experiment I had a while back regarding the Force and morality, curious to see what other people think.

A Jedi is meditating in the temple when he has a horrible realization: "To give into emotions is the Dark Side, but heinous deeds can be, and often ARE, committed without the slightest bit of passion or hatred. Can one call upon the Light to do such terrible acts?" The more he thinks about it, the more disturbed he becomes until he decides there is only one way to find out. He gets up, walks outside, and clears his mind of emotion.

Then, when he is calm and at peace, he uses the Force to pick up a speeder truck and drop it on a crowd full of innocent civilians.

He does this without malice or hatred, passion or fear, anger or love. The most that he feels is a vague hope that he won't be able to, that's he's not about to become a mass murderer. Going by what we know of the Force, he SHOULD be able to draw on the Light, and (being calm) the dark side would elude him. So the question becomes: what happens? Does it work? Why or why not? Was it somehow the Dark Side anyways, even if it was completely passionless and selfless? Why?

Whether something is evil isn't simply a matter of intent. People can engage in behaviors for the best and most valid of reasons with no ill intent whatsoever and that still doesn't wash the blood from your hands.

EDIT: You plebian, Brad . They're totally, completely, hopelessly in love, that's what makes it "AAAAAWWWWWW!!!" Which is so much better than just hot chicks kissing!

If I really wanted to derail the thread, I'd post their wedding vows... * Our game is frequently very dark and edgy, so having some moments of soppy, slushy romance is a nice counterbalance to that.

And yeah, I offered a few nuggets of wisdom before the inevitable derailment

And hey I answered Dante's gay Jedi question... What more do you lot want?

* (Oh, go on then, but ~spoilered~ so as not to derail further...)

*furiously ignores the cuteness and puts on her librarian glasses*

The Jedi in your thought experiment would be following the Dark Side. Here's the rub;

Think of the Force as an ocean.

When in it's natural state, the ocean strives to be calm and without waves. Even across it's entire mass.

However the Force is acted upon by every living thing, for all living things are one in the Force. Each action taken by all things moves the Force to one of two poles; serving the self (dark) or serving the whole (light).

Most plans and animals act on instincts - their inherent nature to reproduce and continue their species. These create tiny ripples in the Force, for their actions are sometimes self-serving (killing to feed, etc), and sometimes serving the whole (reproduction for continuation of the species, caring for young, etc).

Sentient species, however, make large ripples, creating waves in the current through their capacity for great acts of selfishness and huge acts of charity alike. These waves slosh about creating all sorts of imbalance.

Force Users have the capacity to make even larger waves - tsunamis even - through their use of the Force and personal decisions. Jedi are taught to consider the state of the Force, and try to counter-balance the waves to bring the Force back into harmony - as close to the state of calm as the Force can be. Sith choose to not care at all about the greater state of the Force - after all, does not an ocean exist forever in a state of churning? why is their responsibility to sacrifice themselves to watch it - and choose to only act in their own interests regardless of the cost.

The Jedi in this "pure, emotionless, state" would be doing precisely that - furthering their own desires at the cost of the whole, and thus acting in accordance with the Dark Side. Should the Jedi have meditated on the will of the Force and found that the death of the innocents outside was a necessary thing to make some balance (though there isn't much chance of that happening - coincidentally why Jedi don't typically go around randomly dumping speeders on people) then he would have been working in harmony with the Force.

***** WARNING: MARCY THREAD DERAILMENT IMMINENT!!!*****

I totally read "How to handle gay Jedi" and was looking forward to

Meh, it's 2016 and we're all tolerant here. I say just let them marry. Same for interspecies Jedi. It doesn't harm anyone, and closeted Jedi aren't any use to anybody. That way lies the Dark Side.

(Aleyna here is an ex-Jedi, so that still counts, right?)

***** MARCY THREAD DERAILMENT OVER: BACK TO YOUR SCHEDULED DISCUSSION!!!!!*****

I am aware if the "tolerance" (I hate that word, as if it needs to be tolerated instead of just being deemed normal). I meant more the "how to handle" than the "gay" part causing a shitstorm but like I said optometrist appointment made.

Yes, I know; that entire little piece is like crack cocaine to us romance-fiends . Aley's last little, "That'll be me..." ...Ohmygod. EEE! :wub:

...

And continuing my attempt to be useful: being devoted to Balance like I would assume the "grey Jedi" are does not mean doing evil things while feeling unemotional. It means actively striving to balance the self with the other, and Passion with Serenity. Even in canon, the Force isn't two opposite energies, Light and Dark, it's one energy, the Force, and both how and why you use it determined if you're considered "Dark" or "Light." So emotionless displays of mass-murder are still dark.

EDIT: or, you know. Just read what Kyla said. That's petty much the best metaphor available.

Then, when he is calm and at peace, he uses the Force to pick up a speeder truck and drop it on a crowd full of innocent civilians.

Because that's a lot of Conflict points, even for the GM's pet PC...

I am aware if the "tolerance" (I hate that word, as if it needs to be tolerated instead of just being deemed normal). I meant more the "how to handle" than the "gay" part causing a shitstorm but like I said optometrist appointment made.

I know you had a sensible question, Dante - I was just trying to be a smartass. You did make a valid point. Apologies if I spoiled it

Yes, I know; that entire little piece is like crack cocaine to us romance-fiends . Aley's last little, "That'll be me..." ...Ohmygod. EEE! :wub:

She's the groom, after all

She's the groom, after all

Although I do get a bit prickly about the whole idea that there needs to be a "groom." There doesn't! It's two ladies! But that doesn't mean there can't be one, and for Aley it makes sense, so. I reiterate: EEEE!

EDIT: Okay, I'll stop now, I promise!

No appologies needed!

And continuing my attempt to be useful: being devoted to Balance like I would assume the "grey Jedi" are does not mean doing evil things while feeling unemotional. It means actively striving to balance the self with the other, and Passion with Serenity.

Considering how Lucas was frequently inspired by Asian cinema, it's mildly surprising that he went with a Western-style, binary morality. I know why he did that, it's easier for a Western audience to absorb, and firmly sets boundaries for the movie. We know who the good guys and the bad guys are (right up until the end, when the heel-face turn wrong-foots us...).

But one of the things we did when we reworked the whole canon was to make the Force more of a 'zen' thing, more 'yin and yang'. The duality became part of that. Everyone has a Light and Dark side; the themes of our F&D games are to fully explore the limits of each. Aley in Dark mode is quite a different person to her default Light mode... Mess with the Mrs and its' No More Mrs Nice Mirialan Lady'.

I fully understand Donovan's aversion to this - we've all seen players who want to play a Jedi/Paladin and take the cool powers but then act like a murderous jackass regardless. But I'm lucky to have players who enjoy playing the duality, or exploring where they settle on their own axis, over just power-gaming.

Heck, Kemna is a very different person in "Dark mode." It's lucky so very, very few things can push her there, because...

EDIT: Darn it, I said I was done derailing this thread >_< !

He does this without malice or hatred, passion or fear, anger or love. The most that he feels is a vague hope that he won't be able to, that's he's not about to become a mass murderer. Going by what we know of the Force, he SHOULD be able to draw on the Light, and (being calm) the dark side would elude him. So the question becomes: what happens? Does it work? Why or why not? Was it somehow the Dark Side anyways, even if it was completely passionless and selfless? Why?

I like to think of the Force as a path. You can go the way the path is designed to take you, following the light, which leads to harmony and balance. Or, you can go the other way, the unnatural way, and delve into the darkness. But it's not passivity that gets you either place. It's action.

Being angry is not a big deal. You can be angry and not act on it.

Giving in to your anger is a big deal. It's the act that is the dark side, not just the emotion. Jedi train themselves not to be emotionless, but to act without letting their emotions get in the way, and in doing so they are following the light.

To bring the famous line from Episode I into the mix: what Yoda was talking about in the Jedi Temple, fear leading to anger, to hate, to suffering, is a path of action, not merely of passive feelings. It's when you dwell on your anger that it turns into hate, fueling your own dark desires and becoming a catalyst for suffering. That is the path to the dark side.

So, the act of killing innocent people takes you further down the dark path. It's just another step (or several), just like dwelling on dark emotions is. You can be hateful while you do it and slip even further down the dark path, but just because you're at peace while committing murder doesn't mean you are following the path to the light.

By RAW, you're not a 'jedi' or a 'sith'. You're a Force-user roaming the galaxy and looking for inspiration, or enlightenment or useful artefacts. There's nobody to tell you what to do or how you're supposed to act.

That's kind of the angle I was thinking of for my character next time our group starts over. Someone with untapped potential who finds a holochron. . . a sith holochron.

See, the Holochron, it's smart - it could go all mustache twirly and cackle like Snidely Whiplash, but it wants to play the long corruption game. The knowledge and advice isn't necessarily "Go murder that person and gain strength through your anger", but more of a "That stormtrooper is in your way. You could easily push him off the balcony to his death with a simple nudge of Move. It'd be way easier and far less risk than sneaking up to him and taking him out."

So the character wouldn't necessarily be a bad guy, but perhaps a bit hard and expedient with the best of intentions - and nobody to show him how it's suppose to be done. I think a slow, completely accidental fall to the dark would be interesting.

To be honest, Marcy, the binary morality aspect is what I think went wrong with the whole thing too, and why George Lucas seems to contradict himself all the time in the OT. If you look at how the Jedi behave, and what they choose to do, it's far more aligned to Yin and Yang behaviors - With the fundamental notions of the Dark Side (oddly) being associated with the Yin influence of sustained existence (evidenced through Anakin falls being motivated by keeping loved ones alive, and Vader and the Empire's motivation to keep an Ordered universe) while the Light Side shows the creative desire of change (through the healthy life/death cycle of the Jedi and the force for revolution of the Rebellion) through the Yang.

Because he chose to put heavy Good/Evil connotations on the Force, it got confusing to look at exclusively, and subsequent people ran with alternate ideas to what George considered the fundamental focus.

Kyla, I just have to say: you're awesome! Don't let no one give you no guff about your text color ! Pink is great, anyway!

Anyway, to get back to the topic creator's question...

I don't see a problem in what his player's want. They are essentially playing a standard EoE game using F&D characters - morally-ambiguous people on the fringe, mostly out for themselves, trying to make a (dis)honest credit or two. He can either ignore Morality completely, or play it straight. Some might dip into Dark Side but the penalties for that are not severely punitive.

The beauty of the three-game set-up is that it allows for this. You can play quasi-jedi fighting the Empire with the Alliance, or quasi-sith making a splash in the underworld scene, or Rebel privateers with hired mercs and Imperial-hating bounty-killers, whatever you wish.

From our own games, Aleyna started out with the F&D crew, then literally married into the Alliance (of which she's actually not an official member, which causes all kinds of amusing complications...)