I'm setting up a new campaign, where one PC wants to play a gray jedi. Basic premise of the campaign is that PCs were working at the death star, and when Alderaan was destroyed, they thought themselves: "this is too much for us. F the empire". And decide to desert when death star enters Yavin. PCs don't want to join rebellion, they want to be true neutral a-holes, who only think about their own good.

Now to my question. I don't yet own Force and Destiny, so how would gray jedi work? What I have understood, the light side users use light side pips, and dark side users use dark side pips. But what if force users wants to be as neutral as possible? PC is interested about being forced to do good and bad things to maintain neutrality. Morality is easy, PC just tries to stay between 30-70 morality. But the pips, force user has to choose a side to use, because force die doesn't have gray pips in it. PC himself would rather take dark side pips, because min maxin (easier to gain at least 1 pip), and it would fit the background better, being former imperial etc. But I'm not sure. His basic character concept is a a-hole faceman, who uses force to enhance his social skills.

How would you handle a PC who doesn't want to be jedi or sith, but a gray jedi? Or this situation generally?

Anyone above 29 morality uses the LS pips and CAN access DS pips for a Destiny flip + conflict. Just think of the conflict as a way they can stay "grey".

However true selfish characterset will probably end up darksiders anyway.

As they are coming from the empire the could choose to start @ 29 morality to use DS pips as standard but this is usually instead of the free xp/creds.

There is no "grey" ... simple as that. Star Wars deals more with moral absolutes than not - that is to say, how to navigate such an absolutist world, not that there aren't grey sides and many more colours... pink for instance.

Also, its worth noting as Vixen does, that anyone from 30 to 100 in Morality uses LSPs, whereas only 29 and lower uses DSPs.

Also, its worth noting as Vixen does, that anyone from 30 to 100 in Morality uses LSPs, whereas only 29 and lower uses DSPs.

That is, using them without flipping Destiny Points.

If you’re willing to flip DPs, then either light or dark side users can use pips of the other type — but there is a cost to using pips of the wrong type, and that cost is more than just spending the DPs.

I think the whole gray Jedi thing is lame as hell.

Also note that Jedi are, by definition, from the “light side” and Sith are from the “dark side”.

There are plenty of other force-using traditions out there that might see things a little differently.

EDIT: But you can’t be a “Jedi” and anything other than “white”. You can be a “Grey Former Jedi”, or you can be a slightly off-white Jedi (like Qui-Gon Jinn or Mace Windu), but there really isn’t anything in the EU that would qualify as a “Grey Jedi”.

However, I think the big problem here will be the timing. At the time of ANH when the Death Star approaches Yavin IV, there is only one Jedi Master left in the galaxy, and that’s Yoda. And in that period, Yoda will teach only one student — Luke.

They could certainly start out with the Force Sensitive Emergent tree from AoR, and then they’d have to work on how they learn more about The Force and how they get training.

"Jedi and Sith wield the Ashla and Bogan. The light and the dark. I'm the one in the middle. The Bendu." ―Bendu

I do like the concept of the grey knights, but in essence they are still jedi, just without the bull doctrine of the council. Qui Gon was supposed to be more or less a grey one already. They are not afraid from the darkside as they seek balance, unlike to the traditional jedi's from the clone war era. They have no issue with gaining conflict, they just keep along the good path and use dark and light. That is something much closer to the je'daai code and beginnings of the force traditions originating from typhoon.

There is no fear; there is power.
I am the heart of the Force.
I am the revealing fire of light.
I am the mystery of darkness
In balance with chaos and harmony,
Immortal in the Force."

Though if you want to use the legends about Tython is naturally up to you … they are after all just legends from the past.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Je%27daii_Order
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tython

Oh and naturally there is this:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Gray_Jedi

Okay, I need to go back to the optometrist...

I totally read "How to handle gay Jedi" and was looking forward to reading the sh!tstorm this would have generated.

There is no "grey" ... simple as that. Star Wars deals more with moral absolutes than not - that is to say, how to navigate such an absolutist world, not that there aren't grey sides and many more colours... pink for instance.

Also, its worth noting as Vixen does, that anyone from 30 to 100 in Morality uses LSPs, whereas only 29 and lower uses DSPs.

"Only the Sith deal in absolutes" So, whole SW is actually evil... Interesting implication.

Also note that Jedi are, by definition, from the “light side” and Sith are from the “dark side”.

There are plenty of other force-using traditions out there that might see things a little differently.

EDIT: But you can’t be a “Jedi” and anything other than “white”. You can be a “Grey Former Jedi”, or you can be a slightly off-white Jedi (like Qui-Gon Jinn or Mace Windu), but there really isn’t anything in the EU that would qualify as a “Grey Jedi”.

That's partially semantics. (Jolee Bindo, Imperial Knights, Jensaarai) And partially about definition of gray jedi. There doesn't seem to be one definition in canon about what those are. in my words: Some sources point to force users trying to balance between light and dark without going fully neither. And some point to normal jedis who just don't adhere to jedi council official doctrine.

However, I think the big problem here will be the timing. At the time of ANH when the Death Star approaches Yavin IV, there is only one Jedi Master left in the galaxy, and that’s Yoda. And in that period, Yoda will teach only one student — Luke.

I always understood that Force and Destiny could be played at OT timeline. Seems like that is false. So, what's the official timeline of Force and Destiny?

They could certainly start out with the Force Sensitive Emergent tree from AoR, and then they’d have to work on how they learn more about The Force and how they get training.

I have to talk about this idea to PC.

Thank you everyone, I have to think about this more and talk to the player about this.

Jolie Bindo from Kotor has a pretty interesting grey ideal. I think Mace windu pretty regularly calls on the dark side and is a jedi master.

I think you could design a force tradition around this concept and make your own morality chart/system. If you do please post it here.

. PCs don't want to join rebellion, they want to be true neutral a-holes, who only think about their own good.

This is pretty much every EoE group ever, no?

How would you handle a PC who doesn't want to be jedi or sith, but a gray jedi? Or this situation generally?

By RAW, you're not a 'jedi' or a 'sith'. You're a Force-user roaming the galaxy and looking for inspiration, or enlightenment or useful artefacts. There's nobody to tell you what to do or how you're supposed to act.

Your morality is individual, you can be Dark Side and a fairly reasonable guy, or Light Side and a total jerk. The only in-game penalty is relatively slight compared to previous editions. You can role-play however you like and are not compelled to behave in any particular way.

In terms of stats, you just keep your Morality between 30 and 70 (I think. I don't use the system myself).

And this is by RAW. If you want 'grey jedi' in your game just make them. The Jedi Order in my campaign are sinister, manipulative Knights Templar who believe in the superiority of Force-users over mundanes, and see themselves as self-appointed guardians of the galaxy who will use 'any means necessary' to defend it.

It's your game. Do what you want.

"Jedi and Sith wield the Ashla and Bogan. The light and the dark. I'm the one in the middle. The Bendu." ―Bendu

I do like the concept of the grey knights, but in essence they are still jedi, just without the bull doctrine of the council. Qui Gon was supposed to be more or less a grey one already. They are not afraid from the darkside as they seek balance, unlike to the traditional jedi's from the clone war era. They have no issue with gaining conflict, they just keep along the good path and use dark and light. That is something much closer to the je'daai code and beginnings of the force traditions originating from typhoon.

Grey would not be Jedi, exactly because they do not follow the "bull doctrine of the council" ...

The whole je'daai thing is luckily (so far) not re-canonised, and is in my not so humble opinion: utter BS.

Trying to be a balanced practitioner, like we see Bendu from Rebels, seems to implicate passiveness and lack of action. of course we don't know Bendu as of yet, except as some super-stealthy, rock-like flower thing... definitely based on the Lion Turtle from Avatar: the last airbender.

There is no "grey" ... simple as that. Star Wars deals more with moral absolutes than not - that is to say, how to navigate such an absolutist world, not that there aren't grey sides and many more colours... pink for instance.

Also, its worth noting as Vixen does, that anyone from 30 to 100 in Morality uses LSPs, whereas only 29 and lower uses DSPs.

1: "Only the Sith deal in absolutes" So, whole SW is actually evil... Interesting implication.

Also note that Jedi are, by definition, from the “light side” and Sith are from the “dark side”.

There are plenty of other force-using traditions out there that might see things a little differently.

EDIT: But you can’t be a “Jedi” and anything other than “white”. You can be a “Grey Former Jedi”, or you can be a slightly off-white Jedi (like Qui-Gon Jinn or Mace Windu), but there really isn’t anything in the EU that would qualify as a “Grey Jedi”.

2: That's partially semantics. (Jolee Bindo, Imperial Knights, Jensaarai) And partially about definition of gray jedi. There doesn't seem to be one definition in canon about what those are. in my words: Some sources point to force users trying to balance between light and dark without going fully neither. And some point to normal jedis who just don't adhere to jedi council official doctrine.

However, I think the big problem here will be the timing. At the time of ANH when the Death Star approaches Yavin IV, there is only one Jedi Master left in the galaxy, and that’s Yoda. And in that period, Yoda will teach only one student — Luke.

3: I always understood that Force and Destiny could be played at OT timeline. Seems like that is false. So, what's the official timeline of Force and Destiny?

1: That statement by Kenobi is an absolute statement, so the Jedi also deals in absolutes (obviously.)

2: Imperial Knights and Jensaarai are not Jedi (and not canon). Jolee Bindo isn't canon, but for the sake of argument, let's say he is. He may be trained as a Jedi, but he doesn't (only) follow their teachings or code - which, arguably, excludes him from the Jedi (order), hence, he's not a Jedi. He's a force-user trying to stay balanced, not abusing either light or dark. He roams the shadowlands (or what it was called) on Kashyyk, having removed himself from the order and the rest of the galaxy. He's very critical of the Jedi order... and so on.

3: Force & Destiny is set in the OT timeline, and there is only one Jedi master after the destruction of the Death Star - FaD let's you make characters trying/wanting to become Jedi, who keeps the flame of the Jedi alive, but they are not true Jedi.

3: Force & Destiny is set in the OT timeline, and there is only one Jedi master after the destruction of the Death Star - FaD let's you make characters trying/wanting to become Jedi, who keeps the flame of the Jedi alive, but they are not true Jedi.

Well.... Technically if they die before RotJ it is fine right?

I think the whole gray Jedi thing is lame as hell.

Pretty much.

Ever since this notion of "grey Jedi" cropped up in the WEG D6 days, it was really just an excuse for a player to use dark side powers without falling to the dark side via some metagamey bull-crap.

At least with FFG's Star Wars system and the implementation of the Morality/Conflict mechanic, you have the ability to use "dark side" effects without instantly falling to the dark side, but it just makes reaching/being a Light Side Paragon a bit more difficult. So the OP really doesn't have to change anything if they're going to use Force and Destiny mechanics, since the "gray Jedi" notion of using dark side powers without plummeting to the dark side is already factored in. They just need to be a little more careful in how they otherwise act to avoid going full dark side.

My personal opinions of "Gray Jedi" aside, I would just play it RAW. Their actions will be what "keeps them in the gray" not whatever Force pip they use by default.

If they were to have unrestricted access to both Force pips, it would be depressingly unbalanced (hehe).

1: That statement by Kenobi is an absolute statement, so the Jedi also deals in absolutes (obviously.)

2: Imperial Knights and Jensaarai are not Jedi (and not canon). Jolee Bindo isn't canon, but for the sake of argument, let's say he is. He may be trained as a Jedi, but he doesn't (only) follow their teachings or code - which, arguably, excludes him from the Jedi (order), hence, he's not a Jedi. He's a force-user trying to stay balanced, not abusing either light or dark. He roams the shadowlands (or what it was called) on Kashyyk, having removed himself from the order and the rest of the galaxy. He's very critical of the Jedi order... and so on.

3: Force & Destiny is set in the OT timeline, and there is only one Jedi master after the destruction of the Death Star - FaD let's you make characters trying/wanting to become Jedi, who keeps the flame of the Jedi alive, but they are not true Jedi.

Now I feel you took that all way too literally. No harm intented at any point.

I just have to comment one more thing. Being not canon means nothing. FFG SW has many things in it, which are not canon anymore / ever were.

My personal opinions of "Gray Jedi" aside, I would do what my GM did for me. I would just play it RAW. Their actions will be what "keeps them in the gray" not whatever Force pip they use by default.

If they were to have unrestricted access to both Force pips, it would be depressingly unbalanced (hehe).

Thank you Kaosoe. Your answer was very helpful. And I fully agree with the force pip comment.

You're really going to want to account for how the Empire allowed one or more powerful Force Sensitives access to its most high-tech of high-tech, world-destroying battle stations. One would think that Darth Vader would have sensed him/her aboard.

You're really going to want to account for how the Empire allowed one or more powerful Force Sensitives access to its most high-tech of high-tech, world-destroying battle stations. One would think that Darth Vader would have sensed him/her aboard.

The waters are fairly muddied with regards to Force Sensitives sensing one-another. No one on the Jedi Council sensed the Force within Palpatine, and Vader did not sense anything of the Force (to the viewer's knowledge) within Leia.

It all seems to be what is best for plot.

Being not canon means nothing. FFG SW has many things in it, which are not canon anymore / ever were.

Yep. Now I want a t-shirt with that on it

Seriously - the games are, by default, set in the original movies era... because that's the least controversial and most popular era. By default you're neither Jedi or Sith or anything else, just random Force sensitives sifting over history and having your gap year around the galaxy.

But as it says in the GM's Screen booklet, you can set your game anywhere and any time you wish, or make up your own canon. You can have a full Jedi Order and then it matters when people tell you what to do. Interestingly, one of the 'alternate games' they offer IS the 'Official Canon', where the PCs cannot restore the Jedi Order or affect the canon. That they offer this as an 'alternate setting' implies that, pretty much by default, you won't be playing a canon F&D game at your table.

I see 'canon' as what Lucas did at his gaming table. And it affects other tables not at all.

Maybe I'm coming to the game as an RPG GM, not a SW fan, but I never bother with Ed Greenwood's version of Forgotten Realms, or Gygax's version of Greyhawk, and I don't care about Lucas' vision of Star Wars either. The vast majority of RPGs fully expect you to change things to suit your players and your table.

Some people might like playing in canon, which is why it's offered - as an optional, alternate setting - in the game.

The only true context I've ever seen of Grey Jedi is in episode one: Qui-Gon is referred to as such, but that more to do with his apparent disregard for the orders tenants, preferring to follow his instincts as such it's more a term of slander or an casual attack on his character rather then any stance on his morality.

As an Order? The grey jedi don't exist. Jedi is a religion since you either follow it or you don't, Jedi that disregard the rule simply aren't as far as the universe is concerned as that is what the lost 20 is for. Though in the end what works on a tale to table basis is awesome; perhaps one of those lost chaps did go ahead and make a order, that one day found that the entire galaxy had changed!

Force emergants are cool though, as are random force users that might have descended from that lost 20 sect long ago, it's worth noting however that they follow they same rules as everyone else. The system has significant leway in order to accommodate dipping into emotions.

1: That statement by Kenobi is an absolute statement, so the Jedi also deals in absolutes (obviously.)

2: Imperial Knights and Jensaarai are not Jedi (and not canon). Jolee Bindo isn't canon, but for the sake of argument, let's say he is. He may be trained as a Jedi, but he doesn't (only) follow their teachings or code - which, arguably, excludes him from the Jedi (order), hence, he's not a Jedi. He's a force-user trying to stay balanced, not abusing either light or dark. He roams the shadowlands (or what it was called) on Kashyyk, having removed himself from the order and the rest of the galaxy. He's very critical of the Jedi order... and so on.

3: Force & Destiny is set in the OT timeline, and there is only one Jedi master after the destruction of the Death Star - FaD let's you make characters trying/wanting to become Jedi, who keeps the flame of the Jedi alive, but they are not true Jedi.

Now I feel you took that all way too literally. No harm intented at any point.

I just have to comment one more thing. Being not canon means nothing. FFG SW has many things in it, which are not canon anymore / ever were.

Of course, that's how I roll. Taking things literally since 1999.

I basically agree that canon means very little - but it is a good clarifier when it comes to discussion about sides of Star Wars where the sources differ... calling on arguments from Dark Horse comics or the old Marvel comics of the 80s, may not be the best starting point, as it requires that the other participants acknowledge and is (more or less) familiar with the source. As Maelora kind of hints at, at least how I read that post, using the OT as a default, common denominator, is easier and the least controversial. Once you call on outlier sources, it quickly becomes silly, if not moot. The validity is impossible to gauge and is largely irrelevant for the community, or parts of the community. It's like that ridiculous site they discuss who's the most powerful and have pages long threads discussing and debating who's got what force rating or who how powerful compared to whom ... The point of my argument still stands though: neither the Imperial Knights or the Jensaarai are Jedi, and arguably neither is Bindo considering his renunciation of the Jedi code (if I recall that detail correctly.) Either way, they surely may be "grey," in that they do not adhere to neither light or dark and seek instead a balance perhaps, but they are not Jedi.

As Kaosoe says, allowing characters to use both sets of pips at once will change the balance of the game, and likely make the characters more powerful, as there’s no strain penalty for dipping into the ‘opposite’ side. But if you want a game without having to think about the morality of your actions, where Force-use is more potent and easier, then do so – providing you understand what you’re doing and discuss it with the players first so they are on-board with it.

Conceivably, that might make your game feel less like Star Wars and more like a super-hero game, but if that’s what you’re after, then go right ahead. There’s plenty of sci-fi genres where psionics do not have a moral imperative; Star Wars is actually quite unusual for the genre in offering one, which is why it feels more ‘science-fantasy’ than ‘science-fiction’.

We can offer gaming advice about how any changes might affect the balance of the system, but nobody has the right to say you’re having BadWrongFun, and the FFG Police won’t kick your door down and confiscate your books.

My opinion only of course, but firstly I would still have him drawing from the LSPs. Not only because him wanting to draw DSPs is him min-maxing and therefore makes me want to smack him with the core rulebook, but because drawing on the Darkside seems to be something only Darksiders do regularly, everyone else only call upon it when absolutely necessary and doing so runs the risk of causing you to fall, and being a Darksider means you have actually Fallen, not walking the tightrope between the two. The difference between Gray and Lightsider is merely that Gray is looser in morals and takes more risks by calling on the Darkside more often, making their Fall to Darksider more likely (and hence a harder lifestyle, as they are a walking a tightrope). By letting him call upon Darkside points, you are just letting him be a nice Darksider, not someone who is contantly having to fight temptation.

Basically, the Jedi code just makes Force Users less likely to fall by pushing them to the other extreme, making the Darkside total taboo and removing all temptation. Gray Jedi are those who don't follow it to such an extreme, placing them at greater risk of temptation but allowing them greater freedom of action. Gray Jedi-dom is for those with stronger will that they don't need to impose all the restrictions on themselves (or at least believe they don't have to) that other Jedi do.

So, the whole gray Jedi thing ...

It's really important to divorce the ideological attitudes of the Jedi and Sith from the mechanics of the game. A "Sith" could have a Morality of 71 and be a Paragon of the light side yet still believe that "Peace is a lie, there is only Passion, Passion gives me strength, Strength gives me Power, through Power my chains are broken." Such an individual may be fiercely loyal to friends and family, forging a place amongst the darkest parts of the Unknown Regions, yet still responsible in the community and looking out for "the little guy."

Likewise, you can have a Jedi who refuses to give into their emotions, understands the practicality of the situation at hand through learned reason, realizes there is no death, and chooses to sacrifice millions of lives because the alternative would be the death of billions without a second thought, murdering them to prevent a larger cost. Such a Jedi would eventually be a disciple of the Dark Side for their callous ways, but still hold cleanly to the Jedi doctrine.

When you combine that with the nature of the Order in the campaign setting of the RPG, it's very easy to see that the idea behind the "Grey Jedi" is pretty much what every PC already goes through - you have to balance when you dabble in the dark with when you restrict yourself to the light.

In the end, the flavor of Jedi, Dark, Light, or Grey, comes down to which neat phrase you like to repeat ad nauseum to the non-Jedi in the group until they want to throttle you. Each is a system of belief that (like most beliefs) has very little to do with the hard mechanics of the universe and more about describing how you personally plan on interacting with those mechanics.

Though Kyla's posts make my eyes bleed, I tend to always agree with her. Just use the mechanics (or don't if you prefer not to) and treat Light and Dark as a role-playing thing. There are a ton of heroes, from James Bond to Bruce Wayne to Frank Castle who would undeniably be 'Dark Side' in the SW system, but can still be heroes and aren't obliged to burn down orphanages for the Evuls.

FFG clearly intended to make 'dark side' a thing in this version. You have the listed penalties and benefits for being under 30%; no more, no less. You don't have glowing eyes or scarred faces or red lightsabers or too much black eyeshadow. You can act however you want. Playing Marv or Dwight from Sin City (heroic types who are compassionate and self-sacrificing to nice people, and downright murderous to scumbags) is easy under this system. Heck, you might get to Dark Paragon as a pacifist who never kills anyone, just by playing your 'Reckless' side rather than your 'Enthusiastic' side.

To me, it matters WHY the PCs are going this route. If it's just to have more powerful characters who can use both sets of pips, that's Bad Thing. But if it's to explore the extremes of your personality equally, and explore the theme of a balanced morality, that's a Good Thing.