The thing with ffg's marketing is it is very often wrong (even with the game rules )

So the image of the jousting fang, while exciting, is also bunk

Damned if it isn't a cool idea, though

But yeah, these guys don't joust. You gotta remember these aren't your everyday run of the mill pirate or thug to feed to the meatgrinder, these are mandalorians!

Its not about jousting, but rather clever tactics and stuff

Which means just having the tools for a job doesn't necessarily mean using them (because some ships, like x7 defenders, will mulch you at range 1). It's more about being flexible and learning which is your position of power v every specific matchup

Hence the combination of title thrusters giving you advantages at every range outside 2 and epts that aren't fearlessness giving you benefits without so many dang hoops to jump through

Note that I personally don't much stock in thrusters on generics though. Even if you're not jousting (could be blocking or trolling), you're still probably too close for thrusters

Autos is almost always the best option if you can take it at all. I say almost because Punisher clearly does not want it and T70s got their own thing going on lol.

Its 2pts vs 3pts for a SD, isnt used quite as often but doesnt go away the moment you wiff a single defense, and if you trigger it even once its paid itself more than a SD can.

Only reason Soontir seems to consistently keep dodging crap is because he can take both. SD is just such a bad option if you can take Autos.

So the image of the jousting fang, while exciting, is also bunk

Nonsense. The Fang does excel at range 1 jousing.

Yes, all things being equal, if you can avoid getting shot at and still get your shot, then not being shot at is better. But frequently that isn't an option. If you get caught in the dreaded range 2 band of death, you are better off boosting into their teeth (at least with Fenn Rau) than staying there and there often isn't an option for not getting shot altogether. Sometimes the best option is to dive into the faces of a swarm, try and bump the front ship and blast away. But you can also use it to force tough decisions particularly on low firepower ships. Do they go for the 3 vs 4 roll against fenn rau? Or do they shoot a further away ship?

Fearlessness is an extremely powerful EPT but sadly has no place on the protectorate, that I'll agree with. You need to be boosting or BR to get into a good position. PTL is one thing but I think you absolutely need something that'll allow you to bump and not care (at least with fenn rau). So manaroo, mindlink or both.

Autothrusters is totally worth it on low PS ships if only because turrets are still a thing. Mercifully turrets are less prevalent now but if you face one, AT is worth its weight in gold for a protectorate.

So the image of the jousting fang, while exciting, is also bunk

Nonsense. The Fang does excel at range 1 jousing.

it really doesn't ( though depending on course of your definition of "excel")

for me, "excel" means it better compete with the tip top jousters, which seems to suggest x7 defenders and crackswarm

the Fang's base profile for its cost does not suggest it is at that level of efficiency and the only unique benefits the fang is deriving from a range 1 joust is:

1.) the title

2.) Ol' Terry (Rau's ability doesn't care about the joust, it just needs to be in range 1 of the target; Kad doesn't even care about range!)

3.) Fearlessness

the title itself is very nice, but it is really not doing anything to overcome the inherent cost inefficiency of the fang nor is it such a mind-blowing benefit that it can't be replicated on other ships

i.e the x7 title already gives you the same benefit (unless you're in some weird situation where the protectorate title is triggering more than once) AND makes the defender a far more jousting efficient ship due to the point decrease

and I bring up the x7 because juggler's identified it as the most efficient jouster (calculated for the PS 1 with no other upgrades) in the game, whereas the Fang's closest parallels (interceptor/special K)...are not

if there are many more efficient jousters than the fang, imo it means the Fang is going to have to not joust more often than not

luckily, it can do things like talon-roll and boost/roll so it's not like it's a "bad" ship (just not an excellent jouster imo)

it's marketed as a jouster, I don't see much in the way of concrete game mechanics to suggest it was designed to be one (unless going up against even less efficient enemies) relative to the new standard of things anyway. I guess Xs and Bs would be nervous, but given their current lot in life that's not saying much

On the anecdotal side of things, I've jousted many many a fang, and I've yet to lose to them (not because I'm teh best, but because it's a joust-i.e dice-off-against a 0 shield, 4 hull ship). The x7, the ARC and Biggs have consistently proven to be more than a match for many iterations of Fangs in squads

I like ptl thrusters title for fenn. Just makes a solid ship. The only funny thing I'm really considering is putting seismic torps on. Why you ask? For the surprise turn when you maneuver right behind a rock, blast it out of the way (50% chance to get hurt be damned) and boost in for a murdering. It's a fun option that for 2 points I think could lead to some interesting and unexpected applications. That's the theory at least, it might just end up terrible.

Okay then, let's look at the x7 defender. Let's assume Fenn Rau vs Defender. Both have focus and TL (PTL, whatever) and the x7 has an evade of course and they're range 1.

We'll also assume for the sake of the argument that each are saving their focuses for defence.

Fenn Rau goes first. He has 5 dice, with a TL. He scores, on average, 3.75 hits. The defender tries to dodge, getting 1.875 dodges (with focuses) and then +1 for the evade token.

Defender fires back. He has 4 dice with TL, so scores 3 hits. Fenn ducks and weaves at range 1 with 4 dice, getting 2.5 evades plus another for the title.

So Fenn Rau scores almost 1 hit per pass while the Defender is, on average, not going to hit Fenn.

Obviously this assumes range 1 every time, but as long as Fenn can avoid Range 2, he jousts pretty well against the Defender (range 3 is likely to be a miss on both sides).

Now there are some confounding factors - if the defender saves his focus for offence (or just plain doesn't need it for defence), then it's more dicey for Fenn with it very slightly in the Defender's favour (3.75 hits vs 3.5 dodges), although that pushes Fenn's damage up too and assuming sufficient range 1 passes, Fenn Rau still wins that on average. I feel like Fenn Rau just plain MUST be supported by e.g. manaroo so he has at least 2 focus tokens if not more, so he gets the 5 dice death punch AND a focus or two for defence. But then on the other hand, if I count manaroo in, you might count Palp in at which point the defender narrowly starts winning that fight. Lastly green dice are ... you know ... fickle, and the defender can weather a bad turn much better than Fenn who can just drop dead.

But to say that Fenn Rau can't joust at range 1 against an x7 defender - I think the numbers show this isn't the case.

Now of course what's better than that is 5 dice into a defender when the defender can't fire back at all. There's no dispute there. But Fenn ain't all that shabby when it comes to jousting.

Edit: It might be added there are a number of things Fenn Rau doesn't handle well. Automatic damage - Vader crew is just horrible. Mines and bombs - same deal, automatic damage, although he can sometimes avoid it. Staggared formations, especially with torpedoes, where there's nowhere to do where I won't end up in range 2. Biggs can be an issue, if I can't get in to range 1 of biggs to shut him down, because he can deny me my five dice death punch. He's a rather fragile ship and is vulnerable to a lot of things. But he's definitely not a soontir clone. Inquisitor is also an issue depending on how the "am I at range 1 for title and ability?" question.

If Fenn and the defender both ptl, fenn ends up with a Defender behind him next turn. Good times.

If Fenn and the defender both ptl, fenn ends up with a Defender behind him next turn. Good times.

And with Fenn at 3 or more, so what?

Yeah I think there's a million other variables. Anecdotally, I've found it not too hard to either escape or turn around on a defender (and I just played double defender + quickdraw with my mindlink manaroo/serissu/fenn rau list - I won but there were some scary moments). But I think you absolutely need either mindlink or manaroo or both to really let you use the whole dial.

Okay then, let's look at the x7 defender. Let's assume Fenn Rau vs Defender. Both have focus and TL (PTL, whatever) and the x7 has an evade of course and they're range 1.

We'll also assume for the sake of the argument that each are saving their focuses for defence.

Fenn Rau goes first. He has 5 dice, with a TL. He scores, on average, 3.75 hits. The defender tries to dodge, getting 1.875 dodges (with focuses) and then +1 for the evade token.

Defender fires back. He has 4 dice with TL, so scores 3 hits. Fenn ducks and weaves at range 1 with 4 dice, getting 2.5 evades plus another for the title.

So Fenn Rau scores almost 1 hit per pass while the Defender is, on average, not going to hit Fenn.

Obviously this assumes range 1 every time, but as long as Fenn can avoid Range 2, he jousts pretty well against the Defender (range 3 is likely to be a miss on both sides).

Now there are some confounding factors - if the defender saves his focus for offence (or just plain doesn't need it for defence), then it's more dicey for Fenn with it very slightly in the Defender's favour (3.75 hits vs 3.5 dodges), although that pushes Fenn's damage up too and assuming sufficient range 1 passes, Fenn Rau still wins that on average. I feel like Fenn Rau just plain MUST be supported by e.g. manaroo so he has at least 2 focus tokens if not more, so he gets the 5 dice death punch AND a focus or two for defence. But then on the other hand, if I count manaroo in, you might count Palp in at which point the defender narrowly starts winning that fight. Lastly green dice are ... you know ... fickle, and the defender can weather a bad turn much better than Fenn who can just drop dead.

But to say that Fenn Rau can't joust at range 1 against an x7 defender - I think the numbers show this isn't the case.

Now of course what's better than that is 5 dice into a defender when the defender can't fire back at all. There's no dispute there. But Fenn ain't all that shabby when it comes to jousting.

Edit: It might be added there are a number of things Fenn Rau doesn't handle well. Automatic damage - Vader crew is just horrible. Mines and bombs - same deal, automatic damage, although he can sometimes avoid it. Staggared formations, especially with torpedoes, where there's nowhere to do where I won't end up in range 2. Biggs can be an issue, if I can't get in to range 1 of biggs to shut him down, because he can deny me my five dice death punch. He's a rather fragile ship and is vulnerable to a lot of things. But he's definitely not a soontir clone. Inquisitor is also an issue depending on how the "am I at range 1 for title and ability?" question.

So my only question about your post is this...ill quote you one more time...

"Defender fires back. He has 4 dice with TL, so scores 3 hits. Fenn ducks and weaves at range 1 with 4 dice, getting 2.5 evades plus another for the title."

I don't understand where Fenn is getting 2.5 evades before the title kicks in... even with focus for defense that doesn't add up to 2.5.

each defense die has 3 evade, 3 blank and 2 focus results so even if your focusing for defense that means you will evade 62.5% of the time. You would not round this up to 2.5, it doesn't work that way. It would be more accurate to say that since their evade possibilities per die are exactly the same , both ships have an evade (title or token respectively) plus focus and Fenn Rau has one more die, he has one more 62.5 % chance to evade the damage that the defender will produce on his unfocused attack die 50% of the time.

The challenge with this is things we aren't talking about, the defenders shields truly win the day here because in a prolonged engagement automatic damage soak will win against luck. and the results are so close human piloting will factor but in the long run, if you calculate the odds properly im afraid you will find the defender is actually much more joust efficient. In this vacuum example you have created.

Fenn is a monster in the joust (It is always better to not take the hit in the first place der). In one shot (turn 2?) I cleared Ryad, fully loaded, off of the board. Fenn will shine best being the scum Fel but to say he doesn't do well in the joust isn't true either.

Only played the one game with a Fang (2 in the list) and I fell in love with it. It has its limits but is a beast when it gets its chance.

Fenn is a monster in the joust (It is always better to not take the hit in the first place der). In one shot (turn 2?) I cleared Ryad, fully loaded, off of the board.

that sounds a lot more like luck than Fenn being a monster

by contrast, I've been shot at by a fully modified range 1 Fenn using x7 Ryad tanking on evade + focus and, in the most unexpected twist of fate, suffered a single point of damage

mr then modless fenn, who had spent his TL and focus on the unsuccessful attack, was taken off the table by the juke Vessery behind him

now only taking 1 damage was sort of luck (average one 3 naked greens is 1 and then another 1 from the evade token), but certainly more likely than poor Ryad getting one-shot. Poor Fenn getting one-shot by an angry vess, though...

because it doesn't matter how many dice you have, full defensive mods + full offensive mods > full offensive mods + prayer

also shields are nice

So my only question about your post is this...ill quote you one more time...

"Defender fires back. He has 4 dice with TL, so scores 3 hits. Fenn ducks and weaves at range 1 with 4 dice, getting 2.5 evades plus another for the title."

I don't understand where Fenn is getting 2.5 evades before the title kicks in... even with focus for defense that doesn't add up to 2.5.

each defense die has 3 evade, 3 blank and 2 focus results so even if your focusing for defense that means you will evade 62.5% of the time. You would not round this up to 2.5, it doesn't work that way. It would be more accurate to say that since their evade possibilities per die are exactly the same , both ships have an evade (title or token respectively) plus focus and Fenn Rau has one more die, he has one more 62.5 % chance to evade the damage that the defender will produce on his unfocused attack die 50% of the time.

The challenge with this is things we aren't talking about, the defenders shields truly win the day here because in a prolonged engagement automatic damage soak will win against luck. and the results are so close human piloting will factor but in the long run, if you calculate the odds properly im afraid you will find the defender is actually much more joust efficient. In this vacuum example you have created.

Right 3 evades and 2 focuses out of 8 facings. Assuming you save focus for defence (or, more realistically, have more than 1) each dice has a 0.625. But there are 4 dice, so the average number of successful evade results is 0.625 x 4 = 2.5.

This is a simplification as you have variation around the average. The 2.5 evades represents if you rolled an infinite number of sets of 4 dice and took the average mean value. In practice what really matters is what THIS SPECIFIC roll will be. But the probabilities of this get rather complicated so the average hits/evades is much easier to do comparisons. As I mentioned having shields helps here - while Fenn wins on average, the Defender absorbs a bad roll better.

It is a vacuum example but it serves to show Fenn Rau really does like to be range 1 in your arc. In practice I find Fenn can hold his own against defenders if he's supported right.

because it doesn't matter how many dice you have, full defensive mods + full offensive mods > full offensive mods + prayer

also shields are nice

Wow you aren't kidding with your username are you?

@The Inquisitor, while your argument is valid and uses mathematics to back up your claims, the one thing you didn't mention is that this isn't a 1 V 1 game. While Fenn might be going great guns jousting 1 Defender, there is possibly 1 or 2 more ships going after him where his ability and titles don't help.

I agree with FGD whole heartedly in saying that it's not worth trying to set up for the bonuses when you can dodge out of the way and not be shot at all. It's not the ship you are jousting that kills Protectorates, it's his mates at Range 2.

Sure. But I think it's important to realise that Fenn isn't unsupported either. With manaroo to pass focus/TL, he becomes a beast. I've played well over a dozen games with or against him now, I think I've only had two catastrophic dice failures that killed him prematurely, one to torps and the other to a very lucky lambda shuttle. He can often lose 2-3 hull and still be a threat running around with one life left. He dies often, yes, but he almost always gets his pound of flesh first.

But none of this is the point. The position was that Fenn isn't a jouster. I would say that he's something of a hybrid jouster/arc-dodger but most often yeah he's a jouster. It's subjective on the enemy you face - which makes it tactically interesting. Against turrets for example, running into their front arc is better than running around with autothrusters. On the other hand, I probably wouldn't run into range 1 of a VCX that has me locked unless utterly desperate. As you say, it's the mates at range 2 that are often the real threat because Fenn can take a range 1 shot to the face from many things. It gives you some great flexibility - you don't have to dodge around like a true arc-dodger, if you can isolate out one enemy you can charge in and five dice death punch them in the face.

I much prefer Hull upgrade where I know it's going to do it's job, every match.

Except when you take 2+ damage on the kill shot and hull upgrade did nothing for you as you would have died without it too. It annoys me that people think hull upgrade ALWAYS works. It only does anything if you survive a shot with one hull remaining or your opponent has to spend a token to deal an additional damage to kill you. I'm the latter case 3 points to discard one token you can only trigger when you die is a terrible deal so that's almost null and void anyway.

I'm not saying stealth is better than hull, I just hate this myth that hull upgrade is always 100% effective when it isn't even close to being that good.

I much prefer Hull upgrade where I know it's going to do it's job, every match.

Except when you take 2+ damage on the kill shot and hull upgrade did nothing for you as you would have died without it too. It annoys me that people think hull upgrade ALWAYS works. It only does anything if you survive a shot with one hull remaining or your opponent has to spend a token to deal an additional damage to kill you. I'm the latter case 3 points to discard one token you can only trigger when you die is a terrible deal so that's almost null and void anyway.

I'm not saying stealth is better than hull, I just hate this myth that hull upgrade is always 100% effective when it isn't even close to being that good.

But it is actually work. The enemy NEED to spend that token, NEED to use his rules, NEED to consider that +1Hull.

I much prefer Hull upgrade where I know it's going to do it's job, every match.

Except when you take 2+ damage on the kill shot and hull upgrade did nothing for you as you would have died without it too. It annoys me that people think hull upgrade ALWAYS works. It only does anything if you survive a shot with one hull remaining or your opponent has to spend a token to deal an additional damage to kill you. I'm the latter case 3 points to discard one token you can only trigger when you die is a terrible deal so that's almost null and void anyway.

I'm not saying stealth is better than hull, I just hate this myth that hull upgrade is always 100% effective when it isn't even close to being that good.

But it is actually work. The enemy NEED to spend that token, NEED to use his rules, NEED to consider that +1Hull.

Not at all. Your hull upgrade fel has 2 hull left. I fire a proton torp at you from a scout. Hit hit blank eye. Free blank to hit (chips), free focus to crit. You roll evade, blank, blank. Palp a blank, spend an evade and take a direct hit. Your dead and Hull Upgrade made no difference. It is not 100%. Stop selling yourself a lie.

Yep. If overkill damage >0 and no token spending had to happen to get the overkill damage, hull upgrade did nothing.

And that's not taking into account the fact that being missed > being able to take an extra damage because things like Tractor Beams exist...

I much prefer Hull upgrade where I know it's going to do it's job, every match.

Except when you take 2+ damage on the kill shot and hull upgrade did nothing for you as you would have died without it too. It annoys me that people think hull upgrade ALWAYS works. It only does anything if you survive a shot with one hull remaining or your opponent has to spend a token to deal an additional damage to kill you. I'm the latter case 3 points to discard one token you can only trigger when you die is a terrible deal so that's almost null and void anyway.

I'm not saying stealth is better than hull, I just hate this myth that hull upgrade is always 100% effective when it isn't even close to being that good.

But it is actually work. The enemy NEED to spend that token, NEED to use his rules, NEED to consider that +1Hull.

Not at all. Your hull upgrade fel has 2 hull left. I fire a proton torp at you from a scout. Hit hit blank eye. Free blank to hit (chips), free focus to crit. You roll evade, blank, blank. Palp a blank, spend an evade and take a direct hit. Your dead and Hull Upgrade made no difference. It is not 100%. Stop selling yourself a lie.

Lol, you spend a Proton Torp over 2 hulls? Fine to me go on.

Between 4 and 5 lifes, there's a huge difference. Same between 5 and 6.

And Kihraxz is one of my favourite ship, struggling when crit 2 damage comes up. I know what I mean :-/

Pitching in one vote for a draw between Stealth device and Autothrusters on Fenn.

This guy love's range 1 where he gets a free Evade against all enemy fire with the title, along with a focus he can pretty reliably get enough evades on 5 dice with Stealth device to get through combat unscathed.

On the other hand when that range 1 happens against a turret ship that's showing you it's tailpipe.....

Regardless of which upgrade you pick, Fenn really hates being in arc at range 2.....

Lol, you spend a Proton Torp over 2 hulls? Fine to me go on.

Against Fel with Palpatine, I'd use a Proton Torpedo it if he had a single hull remaining. I've lost count of how many Proton Torpedoes I've fired at him that end up doing no damage even though I've got nothing but hit and crit results.

I am pretty happy with Protectorates as they come, with Fearlessness and Concord Dawn Protector tittle, exception Kad Solus I would run with Stay On Target because it can create loads of focus that way.

I always take very causious approaching at first, try to fly them as fast as they can behind enemy ships and after that staying in range 1 is pretty easy. I would not use Autothrusters for them or Stealth Device. Im not trying to get in alpha strike with these guys, it is literally suicide for them and as someone said before, dont get too worried about if you get few points of damage in, relax and keep your focus on the game

A bunch more games in, I'm inclined to say the following.

1. Fenn Rau really is a jouster.

2. Stealth really is the way to go at least for Fenn Rau.

As for 1., while not getting shot at is nice, Fenn really works well just diving right at the enemy, getting stuck in and the bigger a mess of bumping ships the happier he is (need manaroo or mindlink to make sure he has 2 focus tokens at all times though).

At the moment, and several dozen games in with Fenn Rau, there are so few turrets in the meta, Stealth Device really is the way to go with Fenn.

If you ram right into range 1, toe to toe with the enemy he will typically come out smelling of roses. There's an 77% chance Stealth Fenn Rau walks away unharmed from a 4 dice focus/TL attack at range 1 if they're facing each other and Fenn has a focus.

A bunch more games in, I'm inclined to say the following.

1. Fenn Rau really is a jouster.

2. Stealth really is the way to go at least for Fenn Rau.

As for 1., while not getting shot at is nice, Fenn really works well just diving right at the enemy, getting stuck in and the bigger a mess of bumping ships the happier he is (need manaroo or mindlink to make sure he has 2 focus tokens at all times though).

And then he explodes.

At the moment, and several dozen games in with Fenn Rau, there are so few turrets in the meta, Stealth Device really is the way to go with Fenn.

If you ram right into range 1, toe to toe with the enemy he will typically come out smelling of roses. There's an 85% chance Stealth Fenn Rau walks away unharmed from a 4 dice focus/TL attack at range 1 if they're facing each other and Fenn has a focus.

Turrets aren't big NOW, but tey may see a comeback wiht uboats gone