Epic Meta?

Well when talking about problems with the meta in Epic it mainly is there is not enough competitive data to establish a meta. But if I was to look at certain components I would say it is the impact of Huge ships on said meta. Having huge ships don't really make that much of a difference where you would want to Take TIE Bombers or fill up single missile/torpedo slots on ships like X-wings and TIE Advances.

Come to think of it the only meta differences Epic has from standard really is the Arc dodging Aces as those die hard defenses start to fail with more ships around. The Huge ships tend to act more like area denial with a big DO NOT MOVE HERE space right in front of it but other than that they really don't do much.

That's sort of the thing with difference in model types on table top games. X-wing is so simple because there really is only 1 model type, starfighter. Sure there are large based ships but that still acts more like a small ship. Much like large base WH40k model fro ma small base WH40K model. In standard there are no vehicles like models in standard X-wing which has its own separate movement and damage set. However Armada has different model types with squadrons which act more like auxiliary/support models to the larger ships. However FFG has the problem in balancing the two where the meta often falls in only one of two categories.

1. Maximize Squadron points (i.e. Rhymer Ball)
2. No Squadrons at all (i.e. First Armada US Nationals champion)

As for me I think Epic should fall in where you want to spend all your epic points but right now you can spend 0 epic points and still be rather competitive. But back to the T-65 in Epic X-wing it has no new problems with EPic that id doesn't have in standard, and that is in turn based games jack_of_all_trade units are terrible. They are good in RTS games like the Star Craft Marine or the Brood Wars Hydralisk. But how can you possibly make a real time strategy game on the table top? You got a tactical space marine, it is going to be slaughtered by striking scorpions in close combat or vaporized by a broadside battle suit at range. It doesn't take much thought to put specialized units in situations that they work best in and exploit the weakness of others. Or as an Ork would say Dakka da Choppa and Choppa da Dakka, got something that is not choppy or shooty? Then chop with da choppa and dakka with da dakka.

I think you are underestimating multi-role fighter. If you treat it as a support or escort ship I think it does fine. It also has the slots to choose to be specialized.

I think you are underestimating multi-role fighter. If you treat it as a support or escort ship I think it does fine. It also has the slots to choose to be specialized.

With modifications and upgrades yeah you can specialized it to a degree, but the point investment into that specialization would be better invested in a ship that can already do that role. Sure giving an X-wing BB-8 and Engine Upgrade would make it a good arc dodger but that is a lot of points you could have simply put into a Chardeen Prototype and have room to upgrade it into a green squadron with crack shot and PTL. The first thing with any unit is to find its role aka what the unit is good at and what it isn't good at. Next and the hardest thing is to find its efficiency at that role. How much bang for the buck you are getting. You will find that multi-role units are not that efficient even if specialized to fill a gap in the role because they are already invested into other roles abet sub-optimally.

Which is why I favor them as support. If you have an A-Wing backed up with a Y-Wing you can cause some chaos, as the dogfighters that went after it are at risk. The A-Wing is another friend of the X, as it has a big gun backing it up. Often the X-Wing becomes bait, allowing an ignored A-Wing to arcdodge into range 1. I've don't it several times.

Which is why I favor them as support. If you have an A-Wing backed up with a Y-Wing you can cause some chaos, as the dogfighters that went after it are at risk. The A-Wing is another friend of the X, as it has a big gun backing it up. Often the X-Wing becomes bait, allowing an ignored A-Wing to arcdodge into range 1. I've don't it several times.

An this is what I LOVE about Epic. Different ship types can each have a role in the overall strategy: A-Wing are fast an dodgy; X-Wings are stalwart but average, and Y-Wings are clumsy but tough. Mesh them all together, an each other ship makes up for the others' weaknesses.

The X-Wing doesn't need a FIX, it needs support ships that make up for its weaknesses.

Well when talking about problems with the meta in Epic it mainly is there is not enough competitive data to establish a meta. But if I was to look at certain components I would say it is the impact of Huge ships on said meta. Having huge ships don't really make that much of a difference where you would want to Take TIE Bombers or fill up single missile/torpedo slots on ships like X-wings and TIE Advances.

Come to think of it the only meta differences Epic has from standard really is the Arc dodging Aces as those die hard defenses start to fail with more ships around. The Huge ships tend to act more like area denial with a big DO NOT MOVE HERE space right in front of it but other than that they really don't do much.

As for me I think Epic should fall in where you want to spend all your epic points but right now you can spend 0 epic points and still be rather competitive.

Heh. The lack of meta is what makes Epic fun. And Epic is still fun without Huge ships, and 300 points of small ships still changes the game by a lot. It's not just arc dodging; a lot of one-use upgrades become less meaningful in a game that large. Huge ships do tend to dominate when they hit the table, but hey, isn't that what a capital ship is supposed to do?

And Epic Points should have nothing to do with Epic play; anything that scales up from 100 points is an Epic game.

Well when talking about problems with the meta in Epic it mainly is there is not enough competitive data to establish a meta. But if I was to look at certain components I would say it is the impact of Huge ships on said meta. Having huge ships don't really make that much of a difference where you would want to Take TIE Bombers or fill up single missile/torpedo slots on ships like X-wings and TIE Advances.

Come to think of it the only meta differences Epic has from standard really is the Arc dodging Aces as those die hard defenses start to fail with more ships around. The Huge ships tend to act more like area denial with a big DO NOT MOVE HERE space right in front of it but other than that they really don't do much.

As for me I think Epic should fall in where you want to spend all your epic points but right now you can spend 0 epic points and still be rather competitive.

Heh. The lack of meta is what makes Epic fun. And Epic is still fun without Huge ships, and 300 points of small ships still changes the game by a lot. It's not just arc dodging; a lot of one-use upgrades become less meaningful in a game that large. Huge ships do tend to dominate when they hit the table, but hey, isn't that what a capital ship is supposed to do?

And Epic Points should have nothing to do with Epic play; anything that scales up from 100 points is an Epic game.

DAT...

Honestly I am not familiar with Epic points. I have a transport, that's the only huge ship in my group. Every now and then we just propose a mission as a group and set a point value and the game is played. It's a game not a job and we do with it what we will. For this the Rebels had to destroy an Imperial garrison. The Empire placed the garrison and its guns, then the rebellion places the ground team. The Empire may keep up to 100 pts as reinforcements that can enter during any end phase on any edge of the Imperial half of the table. The buildings have 3 hull, 0 agi. The guns have 3 hull, no agi, 2 attack die, an effective 2 range, and may shoot any ships in their arc (if they have a shot on 3 ships they may roll against all 3) and are immediately disabled by ion tokens. The game ends when the Empire shoots down the rebels, or the buildings are destroyed. It was really cool actually.

There was also a mandatory and banned list and no obstacles were in play (this was an in atmosphere battle)

Hate to keep this going but honestly just a point I would like to make. Looking for a meta in these games is wrong. I don't play at tournaments really. Except the ones I host at my little club. This club is really just a group of friends and X-Wing but a fun pass time. The point of our games is to fly cool models, have epic dogfights, and sometimes recreate favorite Star Wars scenes and events. In that way looking for a meta is wrong. There isn't one. I like the X-Wing so it shows up on my side of the board... A lot. My companion likes Defenders and K's so I am often dealing with those. But really it's all just fun and games, not cold blood sport... Not to go on a burn the competitive rant, but it honestly saddens me that the game can seem to incite real anger on the forums. Sorry just got through a negative post or two here. Anyway, Blue's advice: fly what makes you happy, and worry about the meta if you are playing in a tournament. There's a place for both, but for me, I am happy with my fanboyish devotion to Wedge and his Rogues, kicking ass and taking names no matter how "underpowered" the T-65 is.

I was hoping holding back saber squadron would save the empire at a critical moment, but by the time they were deployed the Y's were already in position to start their run.

One thing I can say from experience is never try and hold "reserves" or carry out "outflanking" moves in an epic game. The sheer weight of ships, the fact that they can start much closer to you (up to range 2 in!) and the lower number of turns you get in the same timespan means that you really, really need to go for the throat. Hanging back (unless you hang back with everything) just gets you picked apart piecemeal.

Glad you enjoyed it!

and the T-65 is a **** good ship in epic. The fact that they have amongst the most named pilots of any ship is good - you can muster enough high PS pilots to kill even PS6 ships before they shoot - and on a bigger board where there are too many ships to dance around arcs of fire their nice mix of durability, mobility and firepower is actually meaningful.

I disagree about flanking maneuvers, it's just a matter of timing. It's a thing of beauty when you can send your jousters lengthwise down a 6' table with a new target in front of them each round, without ever needing the K turn or otherwise attempt to disengage. Just fly right on by and blast the next target in front of you!

Well when talking about problems with the meta in Epic it mainly is there is not enough competitive data to establish a meta. But if I was to look at certain components I would say it is the impact of Huge ships on said meta. Having huge ships don't really make that much of a difference where you would want to Take TIE Bombers or fill up single missile/torpedo slots on ships like X-wings and TIE Advances.

Come to think of it the only meta differences Epic has from standard really is the Arc dodging Aces as those die hard defenses start to fail with more ships around. The Huge ships tend to act more like area denial with a big DO NOT MOVE HERE space right in front of it but other than that they really don't do much.

As for me I think Epic should fall in where you want to spend all your epic points but right now you can spend 0 epic points and still be rather competitive.

Heh. The lack of meta is what makes Epic fun. And Epic is still fun without Huge ships, and 300 points of small ships still changes the game by a lot. It's not just arc dodging; a lot of one-use upgrades become less meaningful in a game that large. Huge ships do tend to dominate when they hit the table, but hey, isn't that what a capital ship is supposed to do?

And Epic Points should have nothing to do with Epic play; anything that scales up from 100 points is an Epic game.

If you take a look at huge ships they actually fill up points for less money then it would to get more standard ships. A $60 huge ship expansion pack can get you easily 100 points where you would need 3 or more $20-$40 packs for 100 points. I know people complain about the price of epic ships especially when they only play in tournaments and for standard play. Fore only a few upgrades to a couple of small ship models huge ship expansion are expensive. But for Epic play Huge ships expansions are a bargain.

I disagree about flanking maneuvers, it's just a matter of timing. It's a thing of beauty when you can send your jousters lengthwise down a 6' table with a new target in front of them each round, without ever needing the K turn or otherwise attempt to disengage. Just fly right on by and blast the next target in front of you!

I know right... just like Real STAR WARS!

I am curious, I've heard several times that single use cards should be worth less, but I find that in 100 or dogfights I don't have the room needed for ordinance and instead I go without. In this game though, almost very one of my torpedos translated into massive damage or a kill. Salm took out a defender's shields with one, Janson hit Fel with another, and Tycho terrorized with his missile. I'm just not sure what to make of that. Was it a fluke?

If you have to spend a bunch of Crack Shots to ensure you burn down a ship, taking out that one ship can make a huge difference in a 3v3 or 2v3 100pts battle. When you burned all those cards to take out one ship out of twelve, not so much.

Ordinance can still carry its weight though. In fact, area of effect ordinance, such as Assault Missiles and various bombs increase in value.

In my humble opinion, the only thing wrong with T-65's is that there are so many high PS Arc Dodgers that can outmaneuver them. FFG has been making a conscious effort to bring back Jousting in the game overall. There are a lot of PTL Arc Dodger killer tools out these days (like Black Market Slicer Tools....and others). Next, there are all these EPTs and titles and pilots that have abilities that only work when you are in the enemy's firing arc. I see this clearly as FFG feels that PTL Arc Dodgers are too much and keeping Jousters from doing well in the game.

In Epic, Arc Dodgers just can't dodge all those arcs. So, they tend to die horrible deaths. If this is the case, than Jousters are actually good ships. The T-65 is fantastic in Epic! While it's not an A-wing, it is pretty fast. With Integrated Astromech, it's about the same as a B-wing for durability. It's got 3 red dice. It can take an Astromech. The cheapest is only 21 pts! 22 if you want Astromech. A group of these guys are pretty brutal! Oh, and it can take a Torpedo. Those are great in Epic! I am constantly impressed with X-wings in epic games....even when I know they are good.

I am curious, I've heard several times that single use cards should be worth less, but I find that in 100 or dogfights I don't have the room needed for ordinance and instead I go without. In this game though, almost very one of my torpedos translated into massive damage or a kill. Salm took out a defender's shields with one, Janson hit Fel with another, and Tycho terrorized with his missile. I'm just not sure what to make of that. Was it a fluke?

No, ordnance is great in Epic. I even used ordnance in 100 pts before all these fixes. At that point, it was pretty random. It was just that there were times when the dice crapped out and you got nothing. That was rough. Epic can be a different story. For one, if you use Y-wings with Extra Munitions and Guidance Chips, they are pretty brutal. The single die adjustment combined with Proton Torpedoes is excellent as you can change one blank and one eyeball. Horton Salm is just brutal in Epic!!! He's got a high PS for TL's and re-rolls all blanks. Do that with a Proton Torp and GC and you are going to get a lot of hits. Overall, though, even with the humble T-65....if you have one guy that rolls low on the damage for an ordnance, it's not as much of a big deal when there are 4 other guys to fire and do the same thing right after him. So, the one bad die result has less of an impact.

Overall, I think the Torpedo slot is fantastic in Epic. There are a lot of options to think of. Proton Torpedo has the built in dice adjustment. That's great with GC and good even without. Also, critical hits vs. epic ships is brutal. They can win you the game. Next is the Plasma Torpedo. It does not have the dice adjustment, but someone like Horton might not need it. It hits the shields hard and can help you take down an epic ship a lot easier. One often forgets Ion Torpedoes, though. They are great in Epic. Even I dismissed them early on until someone on these forums talked about it. You roll 4 red dice. If you hit, you still do the damage, but they also get ionized! Not only that, but everyone in R1 of them gets ionized!!! You aren't getting the die adjustment, which can hurt, but if you are able to target a squad of enemy ships....hitting everyone in R1 with ionization is nasty in Epic. It means your X-wings can get in R1 next turn, or possibly even run them over with an epic ship! Hitting epic ships with Ion isn't bad, either. It means they get 1 less Energy next turn, which can add up. It's also possible to ionize a squad at the right moment and take that next turn to blast past them. It means they have to spend a turn turning around and then catching up. It might be that you can blast the fighter screen and get through it fast enough to attack the capital ship.

Even in 100 pt games, I think people underestimate some Torpedoes. The humble Flechette Torpedo is only 2pts and can stress out any ship under 5 hull, even if you miss. You need the TL and that means you don't get to modify dice, but it's 3 red dice and you auto stress them. 3 Red dice aren't horrible and sometimes you get lucky. Also, putting Stress on that one enemy at that crucial time can be game winning. Hit that Phantom before it cloaks. Hit that PTL Arc Dodger. Hit that Bro Bot before it can bait you and escape. I've won games by using my Flechette Torpedo at the right time.

People tend to complain about Ordnance in tournaments because they want reliability. There have been a lot of fixes for ordnance lately and there are some ships that can reliably fire ordnance with all sorts of dice adjustment (Contracted Scouts come to mind), but if you don't have all that, then there is no way to ensure that you have a good roll. In most tournament lists, you only have 3 ships, so if your one big attack does nothing, you are wasting points. Tournament players need consistency. They argue against random. I think it's not as big a deal in Epic games.

Makes a lot of sense really. I also have to say as much as aces "don't matter as much," I like what aces can do. When there is a bunch of them you can kill lots of generics pretty fast actually. I am not sure where the trade off between early firepower and mass firepower.

So I got to play an epic mission last night and I have to say, I was entirely impressed by the X-Wings with torpedos. I fought off a 300 Imperial swarm with Rogue and Gray squadron, all loaded up. Imperials had to defend a bunker protected by cannons with saber squadron waiting in the wings. In the end, most of the Imperial forces were destroyed. Salm and Janson took on Fel, and killed him. Saber Squadron mostly made it out ok. Black Black Squadron had heavy losses. Rogue and Gray had no losses. It turns out when you have the points to spare, ordanence becomes a very viable method to take out enemy ships. A pilot skill 10 Tycho was able to devestate a swarm with a single assault missile. The T-65 put on quiet the show dogfighting and escorting the bombers pretty well. Honestly it's not a bad ship really it just needs a little help. Pics to follow.

Tycho? Were you using A wings as well as T65#s and Y wings? Nice to hear the T 65's doing well

I had Tycho, Wes, Wedge, Hobbie, Ibtisam, Salm, and a pair of Grays. The full build is on page one.

So I had Xs and Ys and a B and an A

Actually perhaps the ship that most impressed me was actually the B-Wing. Ibtisam with HLC is very consistent and held off 3 ties and a bomber for more or less the whole game. Push the Limit is very strong on her, allowing her to reposition and have a focus and more or less gaming the benefits of Predator or Lone Wolf. Not too shabby.

Makes a lot of sense really. I also have to say as much as aces "don't matter as much," I like what aces can do. When there is a bunch of them you can kill lots of generics pretty fast actually. I am not sure where the trade off between early firepower and mass firepower.

I will agree that even having a higher PS is good for Epic. Shooting before other ships ensures that you get your shots off. Firing before Epic ships is also good.

The only issue with B-wings in Epic is their speed. If you place them wrong....they won't do a lot for a portion of the game.

Honestly I am not familiar with Epic points. I have a transport, that's the only huge ship in my group.

Epic points are assigned to the Huge ships; corvette and raider are 2; gozanti and transport are 1. You can field 3 in a game, if you play RAW.

If you take a look at huge ships they actually fill up points for less money then it would to get more standard ships. A $60 huge ship expansion pack can get you easily 100 points where you would need 3 or more $20-$40 packs for 100 points. I know people complain about the price of epic ships especially when they only play in tournaments and for standard play. Fore only a few upgrades to a couple of small ship models huge ship expansion are expensive. But for Epic play Huge ships expansions are a bargain.

Are you building fleets with points or dollars? And why would you run a cost/benefit analysis on your fleet??

No, ordnance is great in Epic. I even used ordnance in 100 pts before all these fixes. At that point, it was pretty random. It was just that there were times when the dice crapped out and you got nothing. That was rough. Epic can be a different story. For one, if you use Y-wings with Extra Munitions and Guidance Chips, they are pretty brutal. The single die adjustment combined with Proton Torpedoes is excellent as you can change one blank and one eyeball. Horton Salm is just brutal in Epic!!! He's got a high PS for TL's and re-rolls all blanks. Do that with a Proton Torp and GC and you are going to get a lot of hits. Overall, though, even with the humble T-65....if you have one guy that rolls low on the damage for an ordnance, it's not as much of a big deal when there are 4 other guys to fire and do the same thing right after him. So, the one bad die result has less of an impact.

Overall, I think the Torpedo slot is fantastic in Epic. There are a lot of options to think of. Proton Torpedo has the built in dice adjustment. That's great with GC and good even without. Also, critical hits vs. epic ships is brutal. They can win you the game. Next is the Plasma Torpedo. It does not have the dice adjustment, but someone like Horton might not need it. It hits the shields hard and can help you take down an epic ship a lot easier. One often forgets Ion Torpedoes, though. They are great in Epic. Even I dismissed them early on until someone on these forums talked about it. You roll 4 red dice. If you hit, you still do the damage, but they also get ionized! Not only that, but everyone in R1 of them gets ionized!!! You aren't getting the die adjustment, which can hurt, but if you are able to target a squad of enemy ships....hitting everyone in R1 with ionization is nasty in Epic. It means your X-wings can get in R1 next turn, or possibly even run them over with an epic ship! Hitting epic ships with Ion isn't bad, either. It means they get 1 less Energy next turn, which can add up. It's also possible to ionize a squad at the right moment and take that next turn to blast past them. It means they have to spend a turn turning around and then catching up. It might be that you can blast the fighter screen and get through it fast enough to attack the capital ship.

Even in 100 pt games, I think people underestimate some Torpedoes. The humble Flechette Torpedo is only 2pts and can stress out any ship under 5 hull, even if you miss. You need the TL and that means you don't get to modify dice, but it's 3 red dice and you auto stress them. 3 Red dice aren't horrible and sometimes you get lucky. Also, putting Stress on that one enemy at that crucial time can be game winning. Hit that Phantom before it cloaks. Hit that PTL Arc Dodger. Hit that Bro Bot before it can bait you and escape. I've won games by using my Flechette Torpedo at the right time.

People tend to complain about Ordnance in tournaments because they want reliability. There have been a lot of fixes for ordnance lately and there are some ships that can reliably fire ordnance with all sorts of dice adjustment (Contracted Scouts come to mind), but if you don't have all that, then there is no way to ensure that you have a good roll. In most tournament lists, you only have 3 ships, so if your one big attack does nothing, you are wasting points. Tournament players need consistency. They argue against random. I think it's not as big a deal in Epic games.

Agreed. I often run ordnance on many of my ships, even, for example, TAPs. A alpha volley with prockets then off to dogfighting. I have become a much bigger fan of Bombers thanks to you, Heychadwick.

Makes a lot of sense really. I also have to say as much as aces "don't matter as much," I like what aces can do. When there is a bunch of them you can kill lots of generics pretty fast actually. I am not sure where the trade off between early firepower and mass firepower.

For me the trade off is I forget to use so many different special abilities, so then the Ace points are a waste