Just wanted to get some clarification from a game I just finished up.

GOO was Shub-Niggurath (Physical Immunity) and I was playing with 4 characters. On of my characters had the Red Sign of Shudde M'ell. I found some discussion about this not being useable against a GOO because of the delineation between "monster" and Ancient One. Would I be able to use this against him?

Next question follows if the answer to the above is "Yes". If I can use the RS and all of my characters are it's understood that all of the characters are in one location and taking part in the same battle, could the RS be applicable to all party members (ie: Shub would no longer be immune to physical attacks, no matter which character does the attacking)? It would then also seem logical to me that I would not need to refresh the RS for the entire boss fight.

Here's the text of the card if you don't want to bother getting your own out:
Any Phase: Cast and exhaust to lower a monster's toughness by 1 (to a minimum of 1) and ignore one of its special abilities other than Magical Immunity until the end of this combat.

Thanks for your help!

Ancient Ones are not monsters. Well, they kinda are, but not in game terms. So you're SOL with Red Sign in final combat.

I can think of two good uses for Red Sign during final combat:

1. Someone has the Visions card and crunches the spell for a couple clues
2. An Epic Battle card requires you to discard a spell

If you're not using Kingsport or Dark Pharaoh, then you're SOL there too. :-D

Cool. Thanks you two!

Tibs said:

I totally forgot that I don't allow investigators to gain clues during final combat (George Barnaby/Nyarlathotep issue). So, make that one good use.

*gripe*

still havent heard an official ruling on that one. IMO, it works just fine, without the whole -1 toughness thing, obviously.

In my opinion, other than combat spells (that add magical damage bonus to your rolls), should not work in final battle as they all affect MONSTERS. And in logic of Lovecraft's horror, Ancient Onces are some sort of Gods. The laugh at your merely attempts to cast some minor spells.

P.S. Some healing and other sort of character-affecting spells still should work suring final battle.

Tibs said:

Roland Banks.

Good catch. Roland Banks.

I appreciate that Roland Banks (and Rex Murphy if he's passed his Personal Story) could be a problem for Nyaralthotep but ... well, so what?

There are several other Ancient Ones whose attacks are severely weakened against certain Investigators. Ithaqua's best laid plans come to naught when confronted by Michael McGlen, same for Hastur against Harvey Walters. What about Glaaki against Charlie Kane + 10 Clue Tokens? William Yorrick has an immediate advantage over Shubb-Niggurath. etc.

But it's swings and roundabouts. There are certain Ancient Ones who just adore seeing particular Investigators. Ghatanothoa loves seeing poor Rex Murphy. Rhan-Tegoth laughs at those poor saps that need a Cultist monster trophy to pass their Personal Story. Cthugha smiles evilly every time a party of Investigators comes at him with no spells. No one's ever considered a special rule to help the Investigators in those cases, so why invent a rule to help the Ancient Ones when things are actually in your favour?

It's madness.

Stenun said:

Looks like asked and answered in one post .

TBH, it is a huge letdown to know from the start that you won't be losing the game just because you drew a certain investigator. If you're guaranteed a final combat win (barring getting your key investigator devoured), game loses a lot (all?) of the tension and excitement, even for a final combat win = draw player like me. Knowing the end result before starting makes the journey moot, at least for me.

My point exactly. There's a difference between being well equipped for a boss (McGlen versus Ithaqua) and being immune.

There already exists a rule that you can't gain money. A "can't gain clues" rule wasn't in place because there was no way to gain clues, otherwise there might have been. Now there needs to be one. I'm okay with the limit to spending clues based on seals as being an optional rule, but gaining clues in final combat should be barred. It doesn't even make thematic sense: you're constantly struggling to stay alive; where'd you find time to learn all this new info?

Well back to the topic at hand: Red Sign only works on monsters, not Ancient Ones (as they are not monsters). Besides, being able to strip away physical immunity from Shub would be way too powerful.

Tibs said:

I've very much in agreement that RSoSM doesn't work on AOs. There are a number of reasons:

• It's correct by a strict reading of the rules. "Monster" does not include Ancient Ones- this is made clear in the rules.
• It makes thematic sense. This is an Ancient One after all.
• It's reasonable from a balance standpoint: a spell that removed Physical Immunity from an AO would be immensely powerful.