I've run some MM double shrimp lists this past Saturday and Monday. Lots of fun, and I suspect one of the better counters to a squadron-heavy meta that we've seen flow out of the end of wave-2 and into wave 3/4. This is the very definition of anti-meta (though it could easily slip into being meta-prominent if it picks up a few wins in major tournaments). And I do think either double accuracy or XI7 lists are going to be an important counter, and might possibly need to be worked into an MC80-Squadron pusher, or an ISD build. Thanks for posting. I hadn't quite thought to go the full no squadron route, but you've definitely done a great job of creating a good number of placements and activations off the same list.

Thanks for the thoughts, guys.

Chris Cook--I haven't tried this against a Rhymerball yet (i don't see them nearly enough), so I can't say definitively. But I do know that Mon Mothma is the hard counter to Rhymer's ability, and does a lot against BCC too. And even in my experience of flying non-MM 30's and 90's, they don't go down to bombers nearly as quick as people think if you fly defensively, spend your tokens wisely, and don't get boned by the dice. You're almost certainly not going to lose more than 1/turn to the bombers. Which means, pour on the gas and charge in and you'll be down no more than two by the time you explode all over the carriers. After the carriers are gone, the bombers become a virtual non-issue with judicious defensive flying.

Verg--I agree about the counters. I think ECM is the answer, I just can't find room for it. I'm actually considering committing the most heinous blasphemy and replacing MC30 titles with ECM just to deal with that... :/

You would only probably need to replace Foresight with ECM, right? Because Admonition still lets you trash tokens, and that's hard to give up, at least for me. The only nice thing about Libs/ISDs with that double accuracy stuff is you're more than likely out-activating them, so you can more often than not sit at red range, then zoom up the flanks. Would Lando be better than ECM, since you're only likely to see a front attack only once a game (unless it is double ISD/Lib, of course)

Who is bringing double accuracies to deal with mc30s? Just use x17s

Who is bringing double accuracies to deal with mc30s? Just use x17s

QTC and Spinal Arm on a Liberty. We showed up and played. I don't build lists to counter someone else just because I want to win.

Who is bringing double accuracies to deal with mc30s? Just use x17s

Nobody's bringing double accuracies to deal with MC30s. But they're out there. I'm running into them regularly. More than XI7, in fact, recently. And as someone who's flying MC30's, I have to be able to address them one way or another.

Also, XI7 doesn't mean I won't have to deal with two accuracies--it just frees up those accuracies to lock down my evades, since the redirects are already shut down. Either way, with or without XI7 in the mix, ECM helps me. The question is, does it help me more than the titles ? I think conventional wisdom so far as been no --I know I've certainly been playing it that way--but I'm putting it out there that this idea might be due for re-evaluation.

--but I'm putting it out there that this idea might be due for re-evaluation.

NO. Re-evaluation is a waste of time that should be spent building another super-destructive weapon-of-fear with an easily accessible soft-spot that detonates the entire thing.

--but I'm putting it out there that this idea might be due for re-evaluation.

NO. Re-evaluation is a waste of time that should be spent building another super-destructive weapon-of-fear with an easily accessible soft-spot that detonates the entire thing.

So... more MC30's, then?

--but I'm putting it out there that this idea might be due for re-evaluation.

NO. Re-evaluation is a waste of time that should be spent building another super-destructive weapon-of-fear with an easily accessible soft-spot that detonates the entire thing.

So... more MC30's, then?

Well, you CAN run 5 APT/OE with Rieekan and a 10pt bid, afterall...

Or Dodonna (ramming for the second crit), add a title, and still have 12 points

Ardaedhel

We see a ton of Rymer balls in our area. Can you run 3 shrimps and use the rest of the points on 5 or 6 squads, and get the same effect?

Thanks

Hmmm, so my ackbar list doesnt like the new squad meta at all! Though taking fleet ambush against a fireball list just cause you are 7pts clear going into the final round of store champs is always a duff move.

So my thoughts on Mothma is:

Mon Mothmas Star Destroyers

Author: Ginkapo

Faction: Rebel Alliance

Points: 400/400

Commander: Mon Mothma

Assault Objective: Advanced Gunnery

Defense Objective: Hyperspace Assault

Navigation Objective: Intel Sweep

MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 points)

- Admonition ( 8 points)

- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)

- H9 Turbolasers ( 8 points)

- Expanded Launchers ( 13 points)

= 96 total ship cost

MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 points)

- Lando Calrissian ( 4 points)

- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)

- H9 Turbolasers ( 8 points)

- Expanded Launchers ( 13 points)

= 92 total ship cost

MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 points)

- Foresight ( 8 points)

- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)

- H9 Turbolasers ( 8 points)

- Expanded Launchers ( 13 points)

= 96 total ship cost

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)

- Quantum Storm ( 1 points)

- Phylon Q7 Tractor Beams ( 6 points)

- Slicer Tools ( 7 points)

= 32 total ship cost

[ flagship ] GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)

- Mon Mothma ( 30 points)

- Bright Hope ( 2 points)

- Walex Blissex ( 5 points)

- Phylon Q7 Tractor Beams ( 6 points)

- Slicer Tools ( 7 points)

= 68 total ship cost

1 Tycho Celchu ( 16 points)

Hmmm, I have an unhealthy addiction to moar dice

I'd be interested to see if Tycho is a necessary add there. My perspective is, the reason i spent the points and ate the opportunity cost of a different admiral for Mon Mothma is so that I don't have to use an active squadron defense. However, just Tycho might be worth it.

I don't think I'd go for both Tycho and slicer tools though. I see ST as mostly squadron defense, and now you're sinking 30+16+7+7 = 60 points into squadron defense. Not bad, but also not particularly efficient, which is what I'm trying for.

I think you really want at least one more activation; I'd strip down the flotillas to get it. Maybe it's just my area, but right now I never see lists smaller than 4, and most of the good ones are 5. You really don't want to be out activated here. And when you can bring multiple threats to bear, you optimally want to exceed your opponent's activations as far as you can.

I like the ExL build though. One of my goal s with the 4 shrimp was to be able to overwhelm Interdictor/Targeting Scramblers; ExL addresses that by mitigating their effectiveness directly, instead.

I dont see slicer tools as squad defence, I see it as navigation defence. With tractors and slicers I can make enemy ships movements highly predictable and thus easy to trap! I would rather just kill a ship to stop its squad command....

I see what you are saying, but we dont have ridiculous activation numbers here, and above all else I back my ability to take out enemy cheap activation. Slicers control demo anyway.

Also, my Ackbar list is completely unaffexted by targeting scramblers. The damage comes from lots of dice rather than a specifically good roll. So targeting scramblers rerolls mediocre dice into mediocre dice.

Expanded launchers should do similar.

Also, my Ackbar list is completely unaffexted by targeting scramblers. The damage comes from lots of dice rather than a specifically good roll. So targeting scramblers rerolls mediocre dice into mediocre dice.

Expanded launchers should do similar.

I wouldn't go that far, however it is less affected as you don't have any damage boosters that trigger on a critical. Keep in mind that targeting scramblers reroll mediocre dice into more mediocre dice.

Nah, there's an element of selection in there, meaning I take all your good dice and turn them into mediocre ones, while magnanimously leaving your sh*tty dice unaffected.

It's the exact opposite of the OE effect, statistically speaking.

Nah, there's an element of selection in there, meaning I take all your good dice and turn them into mediocre ones, while magnanimously leaving your sh*tty dice unaffected.

It's the exact opposite of the OE effect, statistically speaking.

However, targeting scramblers can be used on blue and red dices as well and that allows it to potentially worsen even a mediocre roll.

Targeting scramblers are great, but still work on only one attack, so if you are able to CF, you're throwing the same amount of black dice from both arcs of an MC30, and only one attack is scrambler-capable.

Nah, there's an element of selection in there, meaning I take all your good dice and turn them into mediocre ones, while magnanimously leaving your sh*tty dice unaffected.

It's the exact opposite of the OE effect, statistically speaking.

However, targeting scramblers can be used on blue and red dices as well and that allows it to potentially worsen even a mediocre roll.

Exactly.

Nah, there's an element of selection in there, meaning I take all your good dice and turn them into mediocre ones, while magnanimously leaving your sh*tty dice unaffected.

It's the exact opposite of the OE effect, statistically speaking.

However, targeting scramblers can be used on blue and red dices as well and that allows it to potentially worsen even a mediocre roll.

Exactly.

In theory...

Reality, the dice you want to reroll are double hit reds, hitcrit blacks and blues. However, as the original roll never has doubles anyway....

Nah, there's an element of selection in there, meaning I take all your good dice and turn them into mediocre ones, while magnanimously leaving your sh*tty dice unaffected.

It's the exact opposite of the OE effect, statistically speaking.

However, targeting scramblers can be used on blue and red dices as well and that allows it to potentially worsen even a mediocre roll.

Exactly.

In theory...

Reality, the dice you want to reroll are double hit reds, hitcrit blacks and blues. However, as the original roll never has doubles anyway....

You end up rerolling blues (pretty safe and gives 25% change of a miss) and\or red hits (still more likely to produce a mis than a double hit and for a mediocre roll getting a double on reroll is acceptable risk damage-wise)

Nah, there's an element of selection in there, meaning I take all your good dice and turn them into mediocre ones, while magnanimously leaving your sh*tty dice unaffected.

It's the exact opposite of the OE effect, statistically speaking.

However, targeting scramblers can be used on blue and red dices as well and that allows it to potentially worsen even a mediocre roll.

Exactly.

In theory...

Reality, the dice you want to reroll are double hit reds, hitcrit blacks and blues. However, as the original roll never has doubles anyway....

You end up rerolling blues (pretty safe and gives 25% change of a miss) and\or red hits (still more likely to produce a mis than a double hit and for a mediocre roll getting a double on reroll is acceptable risk damage-wise)

Yup. Priority for me is generally black hit/crits > any red hit > any blue hit > any excess that is guaranteed to kill me if I don't reroll it.

Yup. Priority for me is generally black hit/crits > any red hit > any blue hit > any excess that is guaranteed to kill me if I don't reroll it.

I would still reroll a blue hit before rerolling red hit (unless that extra damage from a potential double hit would be braced anyway) as I believe that the decision to reroll a red instead of blue is more or less the same as a decision to reroll a single black hit probability-wise.

Yup. Priority for me is generally black hit/crits > any red hit > any blue hit > any excess that is guaranteed to kill me if I don't reroll it.

I would still reroll a blue hit before rerolling red hit (unless that extra damage from a potential double hit would be braced anyway) as I believe that the decision to reroll a red instead of blue is more or less the same as a decision to reroll a single black hit probability-wise.

Unless your playing with two scamblers then you can aggressively reroll all your single hits on the first one hunting for blanks.