A ship attacks Quicdraw. Quickdraw uses Elusiveness during the Defender Modifies Attack Dice Step and receives 1 stress token. Quickdraw triggers Electronic Baffle, removes the stress token and loses 1 shield.

Question 1:

Quickdraw's pilot ability says "Once per round, when you lose a shield token, you may perform a primary weapon attack." In the scenario described, should Quickdraw's extra attack be resolved before resolving the original attack against Quickdraw? I believe the answer is YES, because Quidraw's ability says "when you lose a shield token" rather than "after defending." If you wait until after defending, then the opportunity of "when you lose a shield token" is missed, regardless of the results of the attack against Quickdraw.

Question 2:

Assuming the answer to Question 1 is YES: what happens if Quickdraw destroys the original attacker? According to the timing chart, the enemy ship should be removed from play unless Simultaneous Attack Rule applies. This would leave the original attack against Quickdraw unresolved. As a fan of Quickdraw, this would be awesome.

Advocating for the other side; current rules do not explicitly cover this scenario. I believe it is reasonable to apply the principle of the Simultaneous Attack Rule, even if the attacker is not the same pilot skill as Quickdraw. Regardless of pilot skill, Quickdraw's extra attack interrupted the original attack; the attacks effectivley happen simultaneously. This interpretation would allow the original attacker to resolve its turn as Active Ship in the Combat Phase, before being removed from play.

I believe that Quickdraw does indeed interrupt the first ship's attack, but even if that ship is destroyed by Quickdraw, that attack does resolve as it has already started (and attack dice have been rolled), and the ship is removed after the resolution.

The Simultaneous Attack rule doesn't really apply, even if both ships are the same PS, unless Quickdraw is destroyed and hadn't had an opportunity to attack yet. But that's getting into some tricky timing issues that aren't relevant here.

Needs FAQ, no clear RAW answer.

Personally I think QD's abilitym if triggered during an attack, should fall into the After Attacking window like other shots triggered by attacks, but that's just my opinion without rules support.

Needs FAQ, no clear RAW answer.

Personally I think QD's abilitym if triggered during an attack, should fall into the After Attacking window like other shots triggered by attacks, but that's just my opinion without rules support.

Yeah, I agree. Interrupting an attack in progress is a likelihood with Quickdraw/Elusiveness and does make things messy. It's pretty clear the devs thought this would trigger after the Deal Damage step, but as we all know, what they hoped for and what we end up with, can often be two separate things.

IF Quickdraw is is allowed to interrupt an attackand IF Quickdraw destroys the enemy, then the timing chart says the ship should be removed from play. Here's something else I found since my original post: "When a ship is destroyed, its card abilities are no longer active. The exceptions to this rule are card abilities whose effects have already been triggered and specify a time when the effect ends, such as "until the end of the combat phase." (Rules page 8) The attack is not a card ability, in the sense of a unique pilot ability, upgrade card or damage card. The way I read it, the ship should be removed unless it has a card ability that fits the description from that rule.

Except that 'remove destroyed ships from play' is the last step of the combat chart, including all sub-attack steps.

Needs FAQing.

IF Quickdraw is is allowed to interrupt an attack and IF Quickdraw destroys the enemy, then the timing chart says the ship should be removed from play. Here's something else I found since my original post: "When a ship is destroyed, its card abilities are no longer active. The exceptions to this rule are card abilities whose effects have already been triggered and specify a time when the effect ends, such as "until the end of the combat phase." (Rules page 8) The attack is not a card ability, in the sense of a unique pilot ability, upgrade card or damage card. The way I read it, the ship should be removed unless it has a card ability that fits the description from that rule.

Going by that line of logic:

1. A ship attacks Quickdraw and rolls attack dice.
2. Quickdraw triggers Elusiveness receiving a stress token and forcing a reroll.
3. The stress token triggers Electronic Baffle and results in Quickdraw losing a shield.
4. The loss of the shield triggers Quickdraw's ability and a new attack is resolved that results in the destruction of the first ship.

So the first ship is gone without ever finding out if it caused any damage to Quickdraw, because Quickdraw destroyed it before getting to the Roll Defense Dice step of the first attack.

Doesn't sound right to me at all. The attack has been started, card ability or not. Surely it must finish resolving. Every other instance of things that trigger or start during an attack still resolve. I don't see why this should be circumvented by Quickdraw's attack.

Of course, the player of the first ship could also say that his attack dice weren't cancelled so those results should stand.

Oh, this one turns into a veritable minefield of issues.

Parravon makes an interesting point about the unresolved attack dice on the table. It is true they were never cancelled, except maybe the one rerolled because of Elusiveness. The counterpoint to that is simple enough: Quickdraw doesn't just automatically suffer damage from the unresolved attack because that would require skipping half a dozen steps in the timing chart.

I've been combing through the rules for anything to make a clear determination on either side of the issue. There simply is nothing concrete to support the idea of resolving the original attack. The best I could come up with is FAQ entries about actions interupting another game effect, like Push the Limit. In that case it's easy enough to call apples and oranges; actions and attacks are not similar enough to make a firm basis for a rules interpretation. Most of the players I talk to want the answer to be: resolve the first attack after resolving Quickdraw's extra attack, then remove any destroyed ships from play. At the moment, RAW does not explicitly answer to this question. I am trying to draw attention to the question because I find it interesting.

All of that said, the chances of this actually happening in a game are pretty slim.

I think you're misinterpretating the rules bit from page 8.

Card Abilities

[...]

When a ship is destroyed, its card abilities are no longer active. The exceptions to this rule are card abilities whose effects have already been triggered and specify a time when the effect ends, such as "until the end of the combat phase.

All it is saying is that, if you have a ship with (for example) Leia Organa as crew*, even if that ship is destroyed, Leia's effect will remain action until specified on the card ("until the end of the phase").

There is nothing in this rule that applies to the current discussion.

*Reminder: Leia Organa's card says: "At the start of the Activation phase, you may discard this card to allow all friendly ships that reveal a red maneuver to treat that maneuver as a white maneuver until the end of the phase."

If you went purely by rules as written, here's how I think it would play out:

Wedge with Predator attacks Quickdraw at range 1

• Declares target
• Roll attack dice
  • Defender modifies attack dice
    • Quickdraw uses Elusiveness, receives stress
    • Uses Electronic Baffle to shed stress and lose last shield
    • Triggers Quickdraw's ability to perform a primary attack
      • Declare target
      • Roll attack / defense dice
      • Compare results
      • Deal damage
      • Trigger abilities
      • Remove Wedge
  • Attacker modifies attack dice
    • Wedge is no longer on the board, and cannot use predator, or any tokens
• Roll Defense Dice
  • Wedge is no longer on the board, so his ability (-1 defense dice) does not apply
• Compare Results
• Deal Damage
• Trigger abilities
• Possibly remove Quickdraw

That being said... I really don't know how they're going to rule on this one, but I hope we'll have a nice FAQ entry for Quickdraw in the next FAQ release, cause we need one.

I'm not so sure about your sequence, Klutz. I think Wedge would still be able to use his ability and Predator because they are both triggered when attacking, and he did start attacking. Other than that, it seems about right as to what should happen.

I'm not so sure about your sequence, Klutz. I think Wedge would still be able to use his ability and Predator because they are both triggered when attacking, and he did start attacking. Other than that, it seems about right as to what should happen.

I see what you mean, but...

Neither Wedge's ability, or Predator fulfill the requirements to remain active.

Card Abilities

[...]

When a ship is destroyed, its card abilities are no longer active. The exceptions to this rule are card abilities whose effects have already been triggered and specify a time when the effect ends, such as "until the end of the combat phase.

We're way off the beaten path here, so we're reading RAW that were not written with such a scenario in mind... and guessing at RAI is futile, so... Weird stuff.

If Wedge or Predator fail to fulfill the requirements to remain active, then how does an "after defending" effect like Dengar or Valen Rudor trigger if a ship is destroyed?

I can guess what the intent might be, but that's based on a logical assumption. And we all know how well assumptions and logic go down around here.

I think you're misinterpretating the rules bit from page 8.

Card Abilities

[...]

When a ship is destroyed, its card abilities are no longer active. The exceptions to this rule are card abilities whose effects have already been triggered and specify a time when the effect ends, such as "until the end of the combat phase.

All it is saying is that, if you have a ship with (for example) Leia Organa as crew*, even if that ship is destroyed, Leia's effect will remain action until specified on the card ("until the end of the phase").

There is nothing in this rule that applies to the current discussion.

[/u]"

You are correct. I put the most concrete rules I could find into the original post, then kept looking for anything else that might in the slightest way be applicable. My point and purpose being this: the more we talk about it, and the more people ask FFG form clarification, the more likely they are to fix it in the next FAQ. So let's spam FFG with the question; here's the link to ask FFG: https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/contact/rules/

If Wedge or Predator fail to fulfill the requirements to remain active, then how does an "after defending" effect like Dengar or Valen Rudor trigger if a ship is destroyed?

I can guess what the intent might be, but that's based on a logical assumption. And we all know how well assumptions and logic go down around here.

You've misunderstood the subtelties of the scenario.

Wedge using his ability after being destroyed by Quickdraw's attack is not he same thing as a ship using an "After attacking/defending" effect during an attack in which it is destroyed.

In the case of Dengar, Valen Rudor, Gunner and other "After attacking/defending" effects, the timing chart is as follows :

• Declare target
• Roll Attack Dice
• Roll Defense Dice
• Compare Results
• Deal Damage
• Trigger "After attacking/defending" effects
  • This is where Dengar and Valen Rudor's abilities trigger
• Remove destroyed ships
  • This is where Denger and Valen Rudor are removed

The scenario with Quickdraw is quite different :

• Declare target
• Roll Attack Dice
  • ​Defender modifies attack dice
    • Quickdraw's attack trigger here
    • We go through a full attack sequence :
      • Declare target
      • Roll Attack Dice
      • Roll Defense Dice
      • Compare Results
      • Deal Damage
      • Trigger "After attacking/defending" effects
      • Remove destroyed ships
        • This is where Wedge is removed
    • ​​We are done resolving Quickdraw's ability
    • Continue Wedge's attack
  • ​​​Attack modifies attack dice
    • ​Wedge has already been removed!
    • No Predator, no tokens.

• Roll Defense Dice
  • ​Wedge has already been removed!
  • No -1 agility for Quickdraw.
• Compare Results
• Deal Damage
• Trigger "After attacking/defending" effects
• Remove destroyed ships

A simpler question, which doesn't require the use of Elusiveness and Electronic Baffle and which will happen a lot more frequently :

• A ship with Tactician attacks Quickdraw
• QD loses a shield token during the "Deal Damage" step
• QD destroys the ship with Tactician with her attack
• Is the ship removed during Quickdraw's attack?
• Can Tactician still trigger during the "After attacking" step?

A simpler question, which doesn't require the use of Elusiveness and Electronic Baffle and which will happen a lot more frequently :

• A ship with Tactician attacks Quickdraw
• QD loses a shield token during the "Deal Damage" step
• QD destroys the ship with Tactician with her attack
• Is the ship removed during Quickdraw's attack?
• Can Tactician still trigger during the "After attacking" step?

We do not know the answer. This needs an FAQ.

A simpler question, which doesn't require the use of Elusiveness and Electronic Baffle and which will happen a lot more frequently :

• A ship with Tactician attacks Quickdraw
• QD loses a shield token during the "Deal Damage" step
• QD destroys the ship with Tactician with her attack
• Is the ship removed during Quickdraw's attack?
• Can Tactician still trigger during the "After attacking" step?

We do not know the answer. This needs an FAQ.

RAW, the answers are :

• Yes, the ship is removed - except for cases of the simultaneous attack rule.
• No, Tactician cannot trigger since it is no longer in play.

If anyone has a rules argument why these answers are not correct, I'd love to hear it.

A simpler question, which doesn't require the use of Elusiveness and Electronic Baffle and which will happen a lot more frequently :

• A ship with Tactician attacks Quickdraw
• QD loses a shield token during the "Deal Damage" step
• QD destroys the ship with Tactician with her attack
• Is the ship removed during Quickdraw's attack?
• Can Tactician still trigger during the "After attacking" step?

Add that to the list of Quickdraw questions to pester FFG with.

A simpler question, which doesn't require the use of Elusiveness and Electronic Baffle and which will happen a lot more frequently :

• A ship with Tactician attacks Quickdraw
• QD loses a shield token during the "Deal Damage" step
• QD destroys the ship with Tactician with her attack
• Is the ship removed during Quickdraw's attack?
• Can Tactician still trigger during the "After attacking" step?

We do not know the answer. This needs an FAQ.

RAW, the answers are :

• Yes, the ship is removed - except for cases of the simultaneous attack rule.
• No, Tactician cannot trigger since it is no longer in play.

If anyone has a rules argument why these answers are not correct, I'd love to hear it.

If Quickdraw interrupts an attack sequence, and I think we all agree the interrupt happens, then does the original attack sequence finish resolving?

If Quickdraw interrupts an attack sequence, and I think we all agree the interrupt happens, then does the original attack sequence finish resolving?

I tend to assume it does.

Both scenarios (finish resolving or not) lead to weird sequences.

If you don't finish resolving the original attack...

• If a ship attacks Quickdraw, and they get to the deal damage step (no elusiveness shenanigans).
• Quickdraw suffers the first of 4 uncancelled hits, loses his last shield.
  • Fires back, kills original attacker.
• Last 3 damage are not dealt??

What I would like to see FFG put in the next FAQ is an "extension" to the Simultaneous Attack Rule :

"If a ship is involved in another ongoing attack, it is not destroyed. Instead, it retains its Damage cards and continues to function as normal, suffering any effects on its Damage cards. After the ongoing attack has resolved, it is destroyed and removed from the play area."

Most of that is copy-pasted directly from the Simultaneous Attack Rule.

I know it's only an assumption at this stage, but I have to believe that the original attack must finish resolving, even if the ship is destroyed by Quickdraw's interruption attack. Every other sequence in the game, once triggered, finishes resolving. I can't see this being any different, and the attack sequence was started/triggered.

Take Dengar's ability for example. Once a ship is destroyed, it is removed and it's abilities are no longer active. But the FAQ timing chart now favours him because he can be destroyed, but still get in his return attack. The same ruling applies to other abilities that perform an additional attack. And also remember that attacks that trigger "after attacking" or "after defending" are in step 9, after abilities that trigger "after attacking" or "after defending". So the likes of Tactician should still trigger as well.

Or just 'any attack triggered in the attack sequence resolves in step 9 of the timing chart'. Arbitrary, but keeps it from having a ridiculous level of interjection within an already relatively complex sequence.

Or just 'any attack triggered in the attack sequence resolves in step 9 of the timing chart'. Arbitrary, but keeps it from having a ridiculous level of interjection within an already relatively complex sequence.

Yeah, that would work.

wow thats a headache of issues.

Probably the biggest loophole we got in wave9-10 so far. Definitely needs a FAQ, we could debate this for months.

Though i sincerely doubt if you kill the ship you interrupted his abilities/cards go away. I wager they'd either faq it to "finish the original attack as normal" or "Quickdraw waits till the attack is complete" just to keep it simple.