I don't recall seeing any star vipers in any regional or national top list. While I do see people here state with certainty that the star viper is good, saying ive done well in local tournaments imo is not enough evidence to say some like myself to think otherwise.

People tend to fly less too meta lists at those events Unlike what you would see at a regional event. (yes there are some, but in a lot of cases not as many) I know if I had 2-3 spring kit tournaments I could go to, I'd fly more original lists as a test to myself (a luxury I don't have) and also they tend to have fewer players (8-16 for example)

Now having a star viper list make top cut in a regional or national event would be something to brag about. These events tend to have 30-100+ players, so to me that's the true test. How many dengaroo, palp aces, triple uboats, ghosts and biggs etc builds you have to beat? A lot more than what you'd see at a local event

I can take an original list to a summer kit tournament, a tie punisher and some bombers or something. Even if I won, I don't think that would mean the punisher is a good ship, and doesn't need a fix. However if I could do it at a regional with 60 players and beat out top meta lists, then I think you'd also see other players doing similar builds

I'm not saying it's a bad ship, but the argument some use as to why it's a good ship isn't enough evidence imo. It can be fun, but it's still a long ways off to being competitive imo. Just like bombers. Fun to fly, but not something your going to revolve a list around at regions. At least in its current state

There's one thing to say: how much is easy to fly a list.

There's a lot of lists that are good, BUT when you have to fly theme in 6+ games...well...some list are simply more strenuous to fly than others.

5 Kihraxz (for example) is an amazing swarm list, but it can be hard to fly theme in a Regional. Not beacuse are bad, but just because: "why I have to fly 5 Kihraxz, when I can take a way more easy Dengaroo?" Dengaroo is way more easy than 5 Kihraxzes to fly with. To fly well 5 Kihraxz you have to coordinate any ship extremely well, and know the enemy as well. And is more tiring tha fly 3 Uboats, or Dengaroo, or even a PalpAce.

So why I have to take a risk? I pay to go there, to do that Regional, and that's my occasion. Of course fatigue is a think to consider, when you go in those tournaments.

So, no. Actually, I don't consider regionals as a fine view to judge what is competitive. Or I can, but I have to consider fatigue through 2 days in my equation.

4 Thugs was a perfect example.

To me, Starviper is near to be fine. Maybe 2 points over, but is not a bad ship per sè. But ofc, I will never bring this ship into a Regional, for the sake of what I said before.

You kind if missed my main point of my post. Some are comparing local tournaments as a way to say this ship isn't bad. While that maybe true, it isn't great. It's not bad for a local tournament where you may see a wider variety of home made lists, and it may do well, but that's not to say it's still a great ship. One that doesn't need an update, because if it didn't, then why don't we see it in more top spots at bigger events?

You kind of made my point.

The kahryx fighter isn't really a good ship. While flying 5 of them isn't a bad list, it's not a great list. Palp Aces, defenders, tlts, uboats, dengaroo, ghosts biggs will all likely eat them for breakfast, and dance circles around them.

I'm only pointing out that because one or two players may do well with them occasionally at smaller events, this does not mean it's a great ship. I admit it's definitely not the worst, but for its costs there is just a lot better options out there that are more efficient, so while some point out "hey this ship is great because I won a couple of spring kit tournaments with it" does not in fact make that statement true as for reasons I just stated. Smaller numbers, usually more home made lists, while some top meta lists, usually not in the same numbers.

Actually I've seen the odd local tournaments where someone flying a punisher makes a top spot. Does that mean the punisher is a good ship. From the census I gather from here no, not really. Most view the punisher is a not so great ship. Fun to use at times for sure, it can be nasty, but for the most part it's still not a great ship

If you consider a ship to be a greater risk, then again that's not speaking to well of it. If it really was a strong ship, one not needing fixing, or an update, then it shouldn't have to feel much like a risk.

Even with all the cries for xwinf fixes we still see ships like Wes, and biggs, wedge do well. Not in high numbers like palp aces, but it's enough to show its still not a bad ship. Not when compared to scyks, bombers, punishers, star vipers, imp firespray etc.

If you would not want to bring it to a regional then that kind of speaks for itself. Fatigue effects everyone. Doesn't seem to stop the tie swarms which do very well, and we do see a lot of them. Using fatigue is more of an excuse than a reason

Edit

Just want to add that it's going to be impossible to make every ship top competitive, it's just the way it is. There will always be something that is a better investment point wise and come with less challenges in a timed competitive event. will the star viper ever become top tier? Maybe, then again, maybe not. Look at the defenders. That went from a ship you never saw competitively except for the small few who devoted themselves to it despite its flaws, to a top tier ship where more and more are using it

My opinion is the star viper is in need of an update. I'd love to make a squad around it, I do have 2, but for what it does at its pt cost I just don't feel like even trying to make it work. What it needs is generics with an elite would be nice. Something to give it the evade action, and not have to pay a point just so you can equip something in the sensor slot

The fact that a ship like the Starviper "needs" and update is evidence of the power creep in this game. There are so many options for guaranteed actions and double actions that ships that do not have such abilities suffer. PTL was the start, but system slots, titles, and other upgrades have contributed. If anything... poor Darth Vader (who should be the best pilot in the game, hands down) has seen his ability go from awesome (but on a weak ship) to meh... (but on a better ship).

What's done is done.... so I'm not asking for a recall on PTL (or other upgrades). I agree, the Starviper needs an EPT. I might also agree the slot should be added for free. 0 cost title, Starviper only and no PS restrictions. Also, Vader CLEARLY needs a nudge. Perhaps he should be able to perform actions, even after bumping or landing on an obstacle.

I don't recall seeing any star vipers in any regional or national top list. While I do see people here state with certainty that the star viper is good, saying ive done well in local tournaments imo is not enough evidence to say some like myself to think otherwise.

People tend to fly less too meta lists at those events Unlike what you would see at a regional event. (yes there are some, but in a lot of cases not as many) I know if I had 2-3 spring kit tournaments I could go to, I'd fly more original lists as a test to myself (a luxury I don't have) and also they tend to have fewer players (8-16 for example)

Now having a star viper list make top cut in a regional or national event would be something to brag about. These events tend to have 30-100+ players, so to me that's the true test. How many dengaroo, palp aces, triple uboats, ghosts and biggs etc builds you have to beat? A lot more than what you'd see at a local event

Check the UK tournaments in 2015. I was chatting with a guy around then who did very well and placed pretty high at some of these events with a Starviper. It was Regionals and Nation events. It's happened.

I don't recall seeing any star vipers in any regional or national top list. While I do see people here state with certainty that the star viper is good, saying ive done well in local tournaments imo is not enough evidence to say some like myself to think otherwise.

People tend to fly less too meta lists at those events Unlike what you would see at a regional event. (yes there are some, but in a lot of cases not as many) I know if I had 2-3 spring kit tournaments I could go to, I'd fly more original lists as a test to myself (a luxury I don't have) and also they tend to have fewer players (8-16 for example)

Now having a star viper list make top cut in a regional or national event would be something to brag about. These events tend to have 30-100+ players, so to me that's the true test. How many dengaroo, palp aces, triple uboats, ghosts and biggs etc builds you have to beat? A lot more than what you'd see at a local event

Check the UK tournaments in 2015. I was chatting with a guy around then who did very well and placed pretty high at some of these events with a Starviper. It was Regionals and Nation events. It's happened.

I'm more or less talking about it in its current state.

When wave 6 was released it wasn't as bad off as it is now. As someone else pointed out, more and more ships are starting to be able get more and more actions. I think the star viper needs a piece of that pie

The easiest fix IMO. Is just throw a title on it that gives it a white sloop for -1 points. It instantly earns a new respect in the game. This forces a choice between the Systems slot or White sloop and less points.

I don't recall seeing any star vipers in any regional or national top list. While I do see people here state with certainty that the star viper is good, saying ive done well in local tournaments imo is not enough evidence to say some like myself to think otherwise.

People tend to fly less too meta lists at those events Unlike what you would see at a regional event. (yes there are some, but in a lot of cases not as many) I know if I had 2-3 spring kit tournaments I could go to, I'd fly more original lists as a test to myself (a luxury I don't have) and also they tend to have fewer players (8-16 for example)

Now having a star viper list make top cut in a regional or national event would be something to brag about. These events tend to have 30-100+ players, so to me that's the true test. How many dengaroo, palp aces, triple uboats, ghosts and biggs etc builds you have to beat? A lot more than what you'd see at a local event

Check the UK tournaments in 2015. I was chatting with a guy around then who did very well and placed pretty high at some of these events with a Starviper. It was Regionals and Nation events. It's happened.

That isn't a bad thing, but that was a year ago? Or close to it?

I'm more or less talking about it in its current state.

When wave 6 was released it wasn't as bad off as it is now. As someone else pointed out, more and more ships are starting to be able get more and more actions. I think the star viper needs a piece of that pie

Sure, it was a year ago, but it sure wasn't DOA as many people say/think. Pointing out it's success from last year is still helpful.

I would tell you to keep 2 of every upgrade card if your doing tourny play. (that is not 1 per list)

I don't recall seeing any star vipers in any regional or national top list. While I do see people here state with certainty that the star viper is good, saying ive done well in local tournaments imo is not enough evidence to say some like myself to think otherwise.

People tend to fly less too meta lists at those events Unlike what you would see at a regional event. (yes there are some, but in a lot of cases not as many) I know if I had 2-3 spring kit tournaments I could go to, I'd fly more original lists as a test to myself (a luxury I don't have) and also they tend to have fewer players (8-16 for example)

Now having a star viper list make top cut in a regional or national event would be something to brag about. These events tend to have 30-100+ players, so to me that's the true test. How many dengaroo, palp aces, triple uboats, ghosts and biggs etc builds you have to beat? A lot more than what you'd see at a local event

Check the UK tournaments in 2015. I was chatting with a guy around then who did very well and placed pretty high at some of these events with a Starviper. It was Regionals and Nation events. It's happened.

That isn't a bad thing, but that was a year ago? Or close to it?

I'm more or less talking about it in its current state.

When wave 6 was released it wasn't as bad off as it is now. As someone else pointed out, more and more ships are starting to be able get more and more actions. I think the star viper needs a piece of that pie

Sure, it was a year ago, but it sure wasn't DOA as many people say/think. Pointing out it's success from last year is still helpful.

Actually, Guri is doing pretty well with Mindlink

Mindlink Guri, Palob, Manaroo is definitely competitive. I took it to the NC regionals and definitely surprised some folks with it. I ended up going 3-3, which for my first regional, wasn't terrible. If I could do it again I would definitely have liked more practice against palp aces. Also, holy crap I wasn't prepared to play 6 games of xwing back to back. Hydration is key folks.

@krynn007, you're right that the starviper doesn't see regular entry into top cuts at major events, but there's a world of difference between a top tier competitive ship, and one you must sell because autothrusters are the only thing of value in the pack.

I only pointed out my local success with the starviper as a response to blanket statements that it's not competitive, DoA, or worthy of throwing in the trash once autothrusters are removed.

But regardless, I firmly believe that Attanni ML is underused in competitive environments. The stress-sharing drawback is over emphasized and I think people psych themselves out of it more than they should. Remember, for as much notoriety as Dengaroo has, it didn't appear as an obvious list until quite a while after after wave 8 released. Was it any less powerful at that time, or did it merely take a while before people saw the power of the list and/or were willing to take a chance with it in a competitive setting? Before it cropped up with such regularity it would be easy to write it off as a bad list, if our only measurement of its previous success in tournaments.

The viper could definitely use a boost, but in the right context now, it can shine more than anyone expects it to.

I took it to the NC regionals and definitely surprised some folks with it.

Where are you at? I'm in Charlotte. I'm on most NC Facebook pages.

@krynn007, you're right that the starviper doesn't see regular entry into top cuts at major events, but there's a world of difference between a top tier competitive ship, and one you must sell because autothrusters are the only thing of value in the pack.

I only pointed out my local success with the starviper as a response to blanket statements that it's not competitive, DoA, or worthy of throwing in the trash once autothrusters are removed.

But regardless, I firmly believe that Attanni ML is underused in competitive environments. The stress-sharing drawback is over emphasized and I think people psych themselves out of it more than they should. Remember, for as much notoriety as Dengaroo has, it didn't appear as an obvious list until quite a while after after wave 8 released. Was it any less powerful at that time, or did it merely take a while before people saw the power of the list and/or were willing to take a chance with it in a competitive setting? Before it cropped up with such regularity it would be easy to write it off as a bad list, if our only measurement of its previous success in tournaments.

The viper could definitely use a boost, but in the right context now, it can shine more than anyone expects it to.

One reason why I stated generics need an elite is for mindlink. With having to go to guri or xzisor for the elite, just running a generic with mindlink auto thrusters could make it a little better. It's just if you want to run a named pilot guri for example, it doesn't take long before she costs 40 pts. That's almost half your squad for a ship with 1 shield, and 3 fickle dice, and no evade action. For the point range I feel there is just a lot more options which are better.

Giving it the evade action maybe enough to help it in its current state, with a minus pt reduction maybe to something else.

I would like to have more reasons to use one. I like the look of it

@krynn007, you're right that the starviper doesn't see regular entry into top cuts at major events, but there's a world of difference between a top tier competitive ship, and one you must sell because autothrusters are the only thing of value in the pack.

I only pointed out my local success with the starviper as a response to blanket statements that it's not competitive, DoA, or worthy of throwing in the trash once autothrusters are removed.

But regardless, I firmly believe that Attanni ML is underused in competitive environments. The stress-sharing drawback is over emphasized and I think people psych themselves out of it more than they should. Remember, for as much notoriety as Dengaroo has, it didn't appear as an obvious list until quite a while after after wave 8 released. Was it any less powerful at that time, or did it merely take a while before people saw the power of the list and/or were willing to take a chance with it in a competitive setting? Before it cropped up with such regularity it would be easy to write it off as a bad list, if our only measurement of its previous success in tournaments.

The viper could definitely use a boost, but in the right context now, it can shine more than anyone expects it to.

I don't think it was d.o.a but it wasn't too long after it did go down a bit in usefulness with, what better options there is out there for the cost

One reason why I stated generics need an elite is for mindlink. With having to go to guri or xzisor for the elite, just running a generic with mindlink auto thrusters could make it a little better. It's just if you want to run a named pilot guri for example, it doesn't take long before she costs 40 pts. That's almost half your squad for a ship with 1 shield, and 3 fickle dice, and no evade action. For the point range I feel there is just a lot more options which are better.

Giving it the evade action maybe enough to help it in its current state, with a minus pt reduction maybe to something else.

I would like to have more reasons to use one. I like the look of it

Though statistically 3 dice with a Focus is very similar to an evade. OK dice are fickle but there's not much in it.

I took it to the NC regionals and definitely surprised some folks with it.

Where are you at? I'm in Charlotte. I'm on most NC Facebook pages.

I was in Fayetteville, but I just moved to the great frozen north of Fairbanks, AK. D:

Gotta love the military!

@krynn007, you're right that the starviper doesn't see regular entry into top cuts at major events, but there's a world of difference between a top tier competitive ship, and one you must sell because autothrusters are the only thing of value in the pack.

I only pointed out my local success with the starviper as a response to blanket statements that it's not competitive, DoA, or worthy of throwing in the trash once autothrusters are removed.

But regardless, I firmly believe that Attanni ML is underused in competitive environments. The stress-sharing drawback is over emphasized and I think people psych themselves out of it more than they should. Remember, for as much notoriety as Dengaroo has, it didn't appear as an obvious list until quite a while after after wave 8 released. Was it any less powerful at that time, or did it merely take a while before people saw the power of the list and/or were willing to take a chance with it in a competitive setting? Before it cropped up with such regularity it would be easy to write it off as a bad list, if our only measurement of its previous success in tournaments.

The viper could definitely use a boost, but in the right context now, it can shine more than anyone expects it to.

I don't think it was d.o.a but it wasn't too long after it did go down a bit in usefulness with, what better options there is out there for the cost

One reason why I stated generics need an elite is for mindlink. With having to go to guri or xzisor for the elite, just running a generic with mindlink auto thrusters could make it a little better. It's just if you want to run a named pilot guri for example, it doesn't take long before she costs 40 pts. That's almost half your squad for a ship with 1 shield, and 3 fickle dice, and no evade action. For the point range I feel there is just a lot more options which are better.

Giving it the evade action maybe enough to help it in its current state, with a minus pt reduction maybe to something else.

I would like to have more reasons to use one. I like the look of it

Though statistically 3 dice with a Focus is very similar to an evade. OK dice are fickle but there's not much in it.

You'd think with 3 green dice and a focus you'd be safe, but so many times not so

Over the course of the game it all evens out most of the time, and over multiple games totally evens out... But you always remember the time when you have a focus and roll blanks. You never notice the times where you had a evade, and rolled multiple eyes. It's confirmational bias.

Over the course of the game it all evens out most of the time, and over multiple games totally evens out... But you always remember the time when you have a focus and roll blanks. You never notice the times where you had a evade, and rolled multiple eyes. It's confirmational bias.

That's true... To an extent. Over the course of a multi round tournament, those dice _will_ fail on you in ways you need them not to. And that's going to keep you from making the top cut.

So I can't blame tournament players for preferring ships with significantly more smooth performance curves.

Over the course of the game it all evens out most of the time, and over multiple games totally evens out... But you always remember the time when you have a focus and roll blanks. You never notice the times where you had a evade, and rolled multiple eyes. It's confirmational bias.

That's true... To an extent. Over the course of a multi round tournament, those dice _will_ fail on you in ways you need them not to. And that's going to keep you from making the top cut.

So I can't blame tournament players for preferring ships with significantly more smooth performance curves.

It's part of playing a game with luck in. Failure is bad, but it's rarely one bad dice roll that puts you in that situation, even when playing a specialist aces list. When it comes down to it if you are playing an arc dodger, avoiding arcs is far more important than tanking with evades, which at best protect you partially from 1 enemy ship.

The easiest fix IMO. Is just throw a title on it that gives it a white sloop for -1 points. It instantly earns a new respect in the game. This forces a choice between the Systems slot or White sloop and less points.

I also like this fix, as the only move a stressed Starviper cannot make are the s-loops. The cannons on a Starviper can swivel to face rearward. Changing the S-loop to a white move would represent this I think.

Well, I'd recommend everyone to keep their starvipers.

I've been flying Guri competetively for quite a while now and had a great time and a good ammount of success.

As mentioned before: Mindlink is what makes Guri work.

My list is called "The A-Team" and features a linked Guri, Palob and Manaroo.

Took it to the System Open in Stuttgart/Germany where I got 5th place out of ~130

Also played the German Nationals with that list and ended up 15th out of ~130

Won a couple of smaller tournaments too.

My overall win-loss-ratio on tournaments is now 32-6 and I've beaten some of the best german players with that list.

All of the 6 losses were very close games, which also could have ended in a win for me, if I hadn't made some minor mistakes.

So far I haven't encountered a matchup in which I had the feeling, that my list would have no chance at all (and I already played and won vs. all type of lists: Dengaroo, Triple-Jumpmasters, Partybus, Triple-Defender, Palp-Aces, Stress-Control (e.g. Rebel Captive or Stresshog)).

Just give the starviper a try.

Maybe there aren't many useful setups with that ship, but if you find one that works for you it's pretty satisfying.

I still find her a lot harder to run without Lone Wolf, even with Mindlink. That extra re-roll just ends up being just that extra edge of efficiency she needs to for the points.

But then I also swear by Advanced Sensors on her, so I think I'm a bit of an outlier in general.

I've been flying Guri competetively for quite a while now and had a great time and a good ammount of success.

As mentioned before: Mindlink is what makes Guri work.

My list is called "The A-Team" and features a linked Guri, Palob and Manaroo.

Took it to the System Open in Stuttgart/Germany where I got 5th place out of ~130

Also played the German Nationals with that list and ended up 15th out of ~130

Won a couple of smaller tournaments too.

My overall win-loss-ratio on tournaments is now 32-6 and I've beaten some of the best german players with that list.

All of the 6 losses were very close games, which also could have ended in a win for me, if I hadn't made some minor mistakes.

So far I haven't encountered a matchup in which I had the feeling, that my list would have no chance at all (and I already played and won vs. all type of lists: Dengaroo, Triple-Jumpmasters, Partybus, Triple-Defender, Palp-Aces, Stress-Control (e.g. Rebel Captive or Stresshog)).

I don't recall seeing any star vipers in any regional or national top list. While I do see people here state with certainty that the star viper is good, saying ive done well in local tournaments imo is not enough evidence to say some like myself to think otherwise.

People tend to fly less too meta lists at those events Unlike what you would see at a regional event. (yes there are some, but in a lot of cases not as many) I know if I had 2-3 spring kit tournaments I could go to, I'd fly more original lists as a test to myself (a luxury I don't have) and also they tend to have fewer players (8-16 for example)

Now having a star viper list make top cut in a regional or national event would be something to brag about. These events tend to have 30-100+ players, so to me that's the true test. How many dengaroo, palp aces, triple uboats, ghosts and biggs etc builds you have to beat? A lot more than what you'd see at a local event

Check the UK tournaments in 2015. I was chatting with a guy around then who did very well and placed pretty high at some of these events with a Starviper. It was Regionals and Nation events. It's happened.

That isn't a bad thing, but that was a year ago? Or close to it?

I'm more or less talking about it in its current state.

How about those results? Good enough?

How about those results? Good enough?

I completely understand why the highly competitive take a pass on this ship. There are other options that are simpler to fly, there is less to go wrong, and have ways of reducing the randomness of the dice. I think you and I see this as a game (where the objective is to have fun) first and foremost. That being said, I have more fun when I'm winning! The Starviper is a competitive player's nightmare. They are often ill-prepared to play against it and the strengths it brings to the table. It provides for a playstyle that is often absent from meta driven lists. The Starviper is the chess player's ship. It rewards you for out-flying your opponent and thinking several rounds ahead. It requires a certain type of mental dexterity that is very hard (if not impossible) to keep up over the course of 6 to 12 hours of continuous play. It is heart breaking to see a well planed maneuver fall victim to bad dice rolls as well. But this is what makes it a game.

The Starviper is my favorite ship because I always feel like it was my play that won the match after every victory, rather than the mechanics of the list itself. This is not the goal for every X-wing player, and that's OK too.