I hadn't really thought about it, but I suppose that if you were steeped in things like Battletech then, yeah, Armada might be a little odd. A PPC is always a PPC, no hero mechs with weird pilots who can ignore armor if they roll 10 or higher.

Played against four of the toilet seat/u-boat ships in a list. No upgrades on them. Dude bumped them altogether and they sat stationary in a line for many turns. I only lasted as long as I did through a very hot run of evade dice for one ship. Three ships not going anywhere during a dogfight?

Played the last two weeks against "Super-Dash." So Dash, Outrider, PTL, Ezra, Mangler Cannon, and Fire-control (I think, get a target lock after an attack.) Granted I've been silly and brought X-wings to a game of X-wing miniatures but I assure you there wasn't a whole lot of dogfight there. I was "out-teched" far more than I was outflown.

I mean, any halfway decent list would butcher four bare Contracted Scouts. That's a goofy list that isn't remotely competitive; if it butchered your list then your list was incredibly janky, and so maybe you did lose at list building. But you could have murdered that list with X-Wings and B-Wings. You could have murdered it with lists that haven't been competitive in years.

Likewise, Dash with a Mangler and Ezra crew? Pretty janky.

This is equivalent to refusing to put Engine Techs, Ordnance Experts, Expanded Launchers/ACM/APT, and Demolisher on your Gladiators, taking them up against halfway decent builds and concluding that Armada isn't about playing the game because some other dude's Demolisher rolled up and triple-tapped your ships and you lost at list building this is bull **** this game. Actually, no, because Demo is top-tier and the things you lost to are bad. It's equivalent to losing to a bomber wing comprised entirely of X-Wings without a single flotilla to support them and concluding that you were out-teched. I mean, maybe, but if your list can't handle X-Wing spam without a single squadron upgrade to support it that doesn't mean Armada is purely a list building exercise.

Or, more generously, it's like losing to a triple ISD Motti list and concluding that Armada is just about list building. The list had obvious weaknesses and if your list had any strengths you ought to be able to exploit them.

The OP really hit home for me.

When I first started playing, I got in to the game with one of my friends. We decided to buy 2 core sets split then with me taking Imperials and him as rebels. Since we got paid at different times and I had a 50% discount at Amazon I got a core set, 2 fighter packs, 2 ISD 1 VSD, and a GSD. Where he just had the core set, a M30 and Home One. we also split the rogues and villains pack.

The next week we had are game. We played the intro game from the core book and both had a great time. the following week we played a 400pt build your fleet game.

My Fleet

weekend fleet
Author: tenchi2a

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 398/400

Commander: Admiral Motti

Assault Objective: Precision Strike
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Superior Positions

Imperial I-Class Star Destroyer (110 points)
- Relentless ( 3 points)
- Wing Commander ( 6 points)
- Flight Controllers ( 6 points)
- Heavy Turbolaser Turrets ( 6 points)
= 131 total ship cost

[ flagship ] Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)
- Admiral Motti ( 24 points)
- Avenger ( 5 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
= 156 total ship cost

1 "Mauler" Mithel ( 15 points)
1 Major Rhymer ( 16 points)
1 Dengar ( 20 points)
1 TIE Advanced Squadron ( 12 points)
3 TIE Bomber Squadrons ( 27 points)
1 Darth Vader ( 21 points)

40k players play the list not the game. That is not how Armada can be played. The list is important but not vital.

I was giving this a lot of thought and the only really game breaking element I found is the Rhymerball. The fact that it can fire at capital ships from a distance where the capital ship can't even fire back at them (I'm looking at you Liberty!!!) is just ridiculous. It would be fine if every capital ship could fire on fighters in blue range but as things are now the Rhymerball can wipe out a ship before the ship can fire back. No bomber balls should survive run on a capital ship without losing at least some wings...

Only read the first post and skipped to reply... so sorry if someone already made this comment...

If the rule bending character was called Han Solo in a ship called Millenium Falcon maybe he accepted better the rule bending because if he wants a realistic table top game this isnt the game hes looking for (like 90% of the table top games).

It's a function of modern expansion-driven exception-based design. If you want a game for which you can continue to release expansions, but don't want to have to release a new rulebook every time, you have a basic set of core rules and then all the expansions are designed to break those rules in some way, so you can expand more-or-less infinitely.

Older wargame designs had much larger based rules, but expansions were more limited and generally only introduced new factions or units that essentilly followed the original rules, or introduced extensions to those rules. Major rules revision/edition change was then required to update and incorporate a body of rules.

Those familiar with older design can find it difficult to adapt to the newer approach; I know I did.

you have a basic set of core rules and then all the expansions are designed to break those rules in some way, so you can expand more-or-less infinitely.

With Armada's unstructured ships Attack step, vague wording on upgrade cards and the ever increasing complexity in said Attack step and cards it's going to be an increasing challenge not to break it.

As another member has already said FFG always break their games.

It's a common feature for a lot of games. Even If someone is a veteran of other games, I would still start them out with the l2p game from the core, and let them know the game expands more as you go step them upto 300 points when you think they are ready (could be the next game) and build both fleets with a few upgrades each and then go onto a 400 point game with more upgrades. Easing them into the rule breaking exceptions is the way to do it so that it isn't a giant shock out the gate, and is much more paletable that way.

I would try and process these notions, but first i gotta get over the fact that dodonna's pride actually works for somebody. All my attempts at it have resulted in no crits and a dead pride.

So I read the OP, the next few responses then skipped right to here.

I must say, reading it and having this feeling while playing, it does remind me of when I was a kid playing super hero games all through the neighborhood. It would go something like this:

Me- I land a super power punch to your skull cracking it POW!

Friend- My helm of deflectiveness causes your punch to deflect POWPING!

Me- I use my laser vision shot to set you on fire ZAP!

Friend- I have force fields so your laser vision bounces back at you KERZAP!

Me- My lightning reflexes allow me to dodge the ricochet BOOM!

Friend- I use my earth bending powers to entrap you with solid unbreakonite RUMBLE RUMBLE!

Me- PERPOOFEM! I teleport right behind you and put you in a sleeper hold BOO!

Friend- I morph into a wildabeast and begin running you through a thicket of low hanging thorn branch trees that don't hit me but tear you up GALUMPH!

Me- Super suit fabric prevents any thorn penetrations and is a dangerous irritant causing welts and difficult breathing to wildabeasts ITCHYITCHY!

Friend- YOU'RE CHEATING!!!!

Me- NAH-AH

Sorta Friend- YAH-HUH

Me- NAH-AH

Irritating Friend- YAH-HUH

Me- NAH-AH

Not Friend- YAH-HUH

Me- NAH-AH

Enemy- YAH-HUH

Me- WELL I'M NOT PLAYING WITH A CHEATER!

Friend not now but tomorrow- YOU'RE THE ONE CHEATING!

Me- PROVE IT!

???- HUH?!?!? FINE, I'M GOING HOME!

Me- ME TOO!

Wait 24 hours, repeat. There was no FAQ! That would have solved everything!

This has inspired me to run a "naked Armada" tournament at my FLGS. Commanders only, naked ships, no aces.

BTW, that fellow ended up marrying my sister LOL!

I haven't read the whole thread, I just jumped in here from the first page:

I can see where your friend is coming from. After playing games from that OTHER company, it can leave a nasty taste in your mouth when the game is dominated by literally game-breaking special characters.

For a lot of people, the enjoyment from the game comes from managing their little fellows on the table top, not in choosing the most bad-ass combination of little fellows. They don't want the super-special heroes to overpower the game and ruin the feel of the grunts doing the work. These are the sorts of people who would never touch X Wing or Warmachine with a ten foot pole, but would love to play Hail Caesar or l'Art de la Guerre. They probably don't even mind a hint of heroes being in their games, but when the heroes become the dominant force, it changes the flavour of the game.

And in Armada, practically every ship is a hero ship loaded with hero characters, all of them combining in different ways to manipulate the rules. Some people would prefer if there were no titles or named characters at all, or that if there were, that their effects would be very subdued.

Those familiar with older design can find it difficult to adapt to the newer approach; I know I did.

Frankly I think the newer approach sucks. It's constantly pushing our more and more releases, each one adding complication (not complexity!) to the game and pushing the learning curve higher and higher for new players. I much prefer the release model for something like Kings of War or Saga. X Wing has gotten well and truly past the point where it was a 'simple to play' game where you roll reds, I roll greens and we compare before we plot out dials again. Now it's WILDLY complicated with layers upon layers of interactions, and each wave simply piles more and more on top.

It's simply not sustainable. The game will break.

If this dude put up with 40k, he should be thankful to play an actually balanced game. Just about every other upgrade, or even basic rules to units "break the rules".

The OP really hit home for me.

When I first started playing, I got in to the game with one of my friends. We decided to buy 2 core sets split then with me taking Imperials and him as rebels. Since we got paid at different times and I had a 50% discount at Amazon I got a core set, 2 fighter packs, 2 ISD 1 VSD, and a GSD. Where he just had the core set, a M30 and Home One. we also split the rogues and villains pack.

The next week we had are game. We played the intro game from the core book and both had a great time. the following week we played a 400pt build your fleet game.

My Fleet

weekend fleet

Author: tenchi2a

Faction: Galactic Empire

Points: 398/400

Commander: Admiral Motti

Assault Objective: Precision Strike

Defense Objective: Contested Outpost

Navigation Objective: Superior Positions

Imperial I-Class Star Destroyer (110 points)

- Relentless ( 3 points)

- Wing Commander ( 6 points)

- Flight Controllers ( 6 points)

- Heavy Turbolaser Turrets ( 6 points)

= 131 total ship cost

[ flagship ] Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)

- Admiral Motti ( 24 points)

- Avenger ( 5 points)

- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)

= 156 total ship cost

1 "Mauler" Mithel ( 15 points)

1 Major Rhymer ( 16 points)

1 Dengar ( 20 points)

1 TIE Advanced Squadron ( 12 points)

3 TIE Bomber Squadrons ( 27 points)

1 Darth Vader ( 21 points)

his fleet

friends fleet

Author: tenchi2a

Faction: Rebel Alliance

Points: 392/400

Commander: Admiral Ackbar

Assault Objective: Most Wanted

Defense Objective: Contested Outpost

Navigation Objective: Dangerous Territory

[ flagship ] MC80 Assault Cruiser (114 points)

- Admiral Ackbar ( 38 points)

- Redundant Shields ( 8 points)

- Cluster Bombs ( 5 points)

- Enhanced Armament ( 10 points)

- SW 7 Ion Batteries ( 5 points)

= 180 total ship cost

Nebulon-B Escort Frigate (57 points)

= 57 total ship cost

Nebulon-B Escort Frigate (57 points)

- Slaved Turrets ( 6 points)

= 63 total ship cost

5 X-Wing Squadrons ( 65 points)

1 Luke Skywalker ( 20 points)

and before you say it yes his fleet is illegal, didn't catch that till after the game.

anyway we played Superior Positions with him as first player.

after a 6 turn game where he killed my ISD1 and I killed all his fighter an both Nebs, the game ended with him as the victor.

then he went on a tie raid about how unbalanced the game was, how much Ackbar stunk how much better Motti was for the points, and how over powered the Imperials where.

when I tried to settle him down we got into a fight and we haven't talked since.

he was also a 40k player so I seem to see a trend here.

but at least it did not end your friendship so take heart in that.

"His fleet looks legal to me, whats illegal about it? Is redundant shields a mod? "

Redundant shields and EA are both mods on the MC80.

"His fleet looks legal to me, whats illegal about it? Is redundant shields a mod? "

Redundant shields and EA are both mods on the MC80.

I missed it at first too, easy to forget Redundants and Tractor beams are mods since all the rest are offensive.

Armada is fun enough you shouldn't need to let the new player win. The beginner scenario in the book is there for a reason. It's really boring for an experienced player, but is designed to give a new player familiarity with the base game before you hit them with upgrade cards. Any new player will feel out of their depth when beginning to play Armada. Even for experienced X-wing players need to adjust to the difference in game order from X-wing and Armada. I don't play a the base starter scenario any more, but do keep it simple, usually 400 pts. an admiral, and keep to basic upgrades. Usually I start off with offensive and defensive upgrades only for the first game. The key is to keep it fun. I hat to admit that I lose more often then when, but the game is fun enough that I could care less.

I was giving this a lot of thought and the only really game breaking element I found is the Rhymerball. The fact that it can fire at capital ships from a distance where the capital ship can't even fire back at them (I'm looking at you Liberty!!!) is just ridiculous. It would be fine if every capital ship could fire on fighters in blue range but as things are now the Rhymerball can wipe out a ship before the ship can fire back. No bomber balls should survive run on a capital ship without losing at least some wings...

Also, bombers are specifically designed to get past most capital ship defenses, and deal damage to them. That's why the game also features interceptors.

First thoughts from the original poster I can understand where he is coming from. For two main reasons first the things that they have special characters do does not make a lot of sense. Take Luke for example going off the movies (I have not read many books and from the few I have read can not remember him doing anything in an X-wing) where do they come up with that he can ignore shields? The whole reason that they were using photon torpedoes was so it could go through the ray shielding, so that is not something special about Luke (maybe the torpedoes). And second why even have them break the rules? I do not see adding extra dice and such as breaking the rules so things like Wedge I do not see as breaking the rules, also I do not see most of the upgrade cards as breaking the rules.

I was giving this a lot of thought and the only really game breaking element I found is the Rhymerball. The fact that it can fire at capital ships from a distance where the capital ship can't even fire back at them (I'm looking at you Liberty!!!) is just ridiculous. It would be fine if every capital ship could fire on fighters in blue range but as things are now the Rhymerball can wipe out a ship before the ship can fire back. No bomber balls should survive run on a capital ship without losing at least some wings...

Two things with this, first most anti-ship squadrons should be able to attack from outside the range of the ship, but we will just go with it being game balance that they said the range of anti-ship and anti-squadron are the same. Second I did a quick look at what I have with me and here is what I came up with for breaking the rules. As I have said I do not see adding/changing dice as breaking the rules. Also as I do not think that most of the upgrade cards are rule breaking (I think it is mostly the named/faction cards) I am only looking at faction specific and not really looking at the cost.

Rebel Ships

Gallant Haven – squadrons ignore one damage if in range

Dodonna’s pride – ignore shields

Jaina’s light – take no damage from obstacles, and are never obstructed

Tantive IV – give command token to other ship

Bright Hope – ignore one damage unless attacked in the rear

Admonition – cancel one attack die, by discarding a defense token

Foresight – evades affect twice the dice, and/or redirects can go to second zone.

Mon Karren – can not spend more than one defense token

Salvation – Crits count as two hits not one

Yavaris – squadrons give up move for second attack

Rebel people

General Cracken – if at speed 3 or higher count as obstructed

General Dodonna – pick the critical hit to be given

General Rieekan – ships/named squadrons are not removed tell end phase

Mon Mothma – evade works closer

Adar Tallon – lets fighter get second turn

Leia Organa – change ships command dial to match

Raymus Antilles – get command token and still have command dial to use

Rebel squadrons

Tycho Celchu – can still move even if engaged

Jan Ors – Let others spend you defense tokens

Nym – on blue crit pick and discard one of enemy defense tokens

Luke Skywalker – ignore shields

Dutch Vander – toggle activation slider on fighter

Han Solo – go before first player

Empire ships

Demolisher – can shoot once after moving

Insidious – black dice can shoot to medium range if shooting in the rear

Impetuous – get third attack against one single fighter

Avenger – defender can not use exhausted defense tokens

Suppressor – at end of enemy ships turn if in range can exhaust one of its defense tokens

Empire people

Admiral Titus – change one ships speed by one before game starts

Admiral Chiraneau – engaged fighters can move at speed two if commanded by squadron command

Admiral Montferrat – If at speed three or higher count as obstructed, lost if ever overlapping a ship.

Commandant Aresko – gain a command token

Admiral Konstantine – if in range of two medium/large ships can change speed by one

General Tagge – 3^rd and 5^th round recover 1 discarded defense token

Director Isard – look at command dials of one enemy ship

Empire squdrons

IG-88 – Ignore Escort and Counter

Boba Fett – do one damage at start of turn

Darth Vader – Count crits as normal damage

Major Rhymer – attack up to medium range

Mauler Mithel – do one damage to every fighter engaged with you

Soontir Fel – any fighter not attacking you take one damaged

Dengar – gives counter +1

I play both factions (more the empire, but have started playing the Rebels some) and it looks like the rebels overall have more rule breaking faction cards than the Empire (and yes it is very possible that I missed some), now the ones I hear about (on here, as almost no one in my group plays them, as we find they are not worth it) are the Demolisher and Major Rhymer. Maybe they are more powerful to the way that most people play, but getting back to the original point I can see having so many (42 by my count) cards that break the rules already I can see someone saying that either they did not do a good job of making the rules, or at the least saying that they do not like so many things braking them.

As for points (without getting into if it is worth it or not) it looks like the rebels get a point break on several things (and this is not to say that the Empire does not have so good combo's, just that the Rebels seam to get things for cheaper). Example – Tantive IV to Commandant Aresko (3 – 7 points, tantive has longer range and uses the ship title slot compared to the much more useful commander slot). Or cards that kind of do the opposite Jaina’s light to Admiral Montferrate (2 – 5 points, with Jaina’s light doing more for less and having no drawbacks also is the counter to the more expensive card and again using the ship tile slot compared to the commander slot.

First thoughts from the original poster I can understand where he is coming from. For two main reasons first the things that they have special characters do does not make a lot of sense. Take Luke for example going off the movies (I have not read many books and from the few I have read can not remember him doing anything in an X-wing) where do they come up with that he can ignore shields? The whole reason that they were using photon torpedoes was so it could go through the ray shielding, so that is not something special about Luke (maybe the torpedoes).

It's kind of the thing that Luke is known for in the movies. Beyond waving a "light-saver", the average person who is passingly familiar with EpIV will know that Luke blew up the giant Danger-Egg. He also did it with the guidance of magic the Force, which was a thing that was unique to him amongst the Rebels. Yes, it was technically the photon torpedoes that bypassed the ray shielding, but they had to be shot by someone. I see this ability as analogous to the 'Back-stab' type abilities in miniatures and RPG games. You're using the same knife that other people can use, but it's you who finds the ***** in the armour and hits the mark. Luke is just exploiting magic the Force to penetrate ship's armour.

I heard a very interesting interview (or an account of a discussion, I can't remember) with a senior chap from FFG, possibly on SUSD or Tuesday Knight Games podcast, where he talked about how they come up with abilities. They start with the theming, looking at the relevant thing or person in lore, and ask 'what is this known for and how can we translate that into the game?', rather than just assigning an ability at random.

Some things are more obviously associated than others because the game system is an abstraction to represent Pew Pew Spaceship combat and you could pick apart the minutia, but I can see quite a number of associations from what I know (basically films only) and that is reportedly the way they work.

Edit: Really? 'ch¡nk' is a banned word?

First thoughts from the original poster I can understand where he is coming from. For two main reasons first the things that they have special characters do does not make a lot of sense. Take Luke for example going off the movies (I have not read many books and from the few I have read can not remember him doing anything in an X-wing) where do they come up with that he can ignore shields? The whole reason that they were using photon torpedoes was so it could go through the ray shielding, so that is not something special about Luke (maybe the torpedoes). And second why even have them break the rules? I do not see adding extra dice and such as breaking the rules so things like Wedge I do not see as breaking the rules, also I do not see most of the upgrade cards as breaking the rules.

I was giving this a lot of thought and the only really game breaking element I found is the Rhymerball. The fact that it can fire at capital ships from a distance where the capital ship can't even fire back at them (I'm looking at you Liberty!!!) is just ridiculous. It would be fine if every capital ship could fire on fighters in blue range but as things are now the Rhymerball can wipe out a ship before the ship can fire back. No bomber balls should survive run on a capital ship without losing at least some wings...

Two things with this, first most anti-ship squadrons should be able to attack from outside the range of the ship, but we will just go with it being game balance that they said the range of anti-ship and anti-squadron are the same. Second I did a quick look at what I have with me and here is what I came up with for breaking the rules. As I have said I do not see adding/changing dice as breaking the rules. Also as I do not think that most of the upgrade cards are rule breaking (I think it is mostly the named/faction cards) I am only looking at faction specific and not really looking at the cost.

Rebel Ships

Gallant Haven – squadrons ignore one damage if in range

Dodonna’s pride – ignore shields

Jaina’s light – take no damage from obstacles, and are never obstructed

Tantive IV – give command token to other ship

Bright Hope – ignore one damage unless attacked in the rear

Admonition – cancel one attack die, by discarding a defense token

Foresight – evades affect twice the dice, and/or redirects can go to second zone.

Mon Karren – can not spend more than one defense token

Salvation – Crits count as two hits not one

Yavaris – squadrons give up move for second attack

Rebel people

General Cracken – if at speed 3 or higher count as obstructed

General Dodonna – pick the critical hit to be given

General Rieekan – ships/named squadrons are not removed tell end phase

Mon Mothma – evade works closer

Adar Tallon – lets fighter get second turn

Leia Organa – change ships command dial to match

Raymus Antilles – get command token and still have command dial to use

Rebel squadrons

Tycho Celchu – can still move even if engaged

Jan Ors – Let others spend you defense tokens

Nym – on blue crit pick and discard one of enemy defense tokens

Luke Skywalker – ignore shields

Dutch Vander – toggle activation slider on fighter

Han Solo – go before first player

Empire ships

Demolisher – can shoot once after moving

Insidious – black dice can shoot to medium range if shooting in the rear

Impetuous – get third attack against one single fighter

Avenger – defender can not use exhausted defense tokens

Suppressor – at end of enemy ships turn if in range can exhaust one of its defense tokens

Empire people

Admiral Titus – change one ships speed by one before game starts

Admiral Chiraneau – engaged fighters can move at speed two if commanded by squadron command

Admiral Montferrat – If at speed three or higher count as obstructed, lost if ever overlapping a ship.

Commandant Aresko – gain a command token

Admiral Konstantine – if in range of two medium/large ships can change speed by one

General Tagge – 3^rd and 5^th round recover 1 discarded defense token

Director Isard – look at command dials of one enemy ship

Empire squdrons

IG-88 – Ignore Escort and Counter

Boba Fett – do one damage at start of turn

Darth Vader – Count crits as normal damage

Major Rhymer – attack up to medium range

Mauler Mithel – do one damage to every fighter engaged with you

Soontir Fel – any fighter not attacking you take one damaged

Dengar – gives counter +1

I play both factions (more the empire, but have started playing the Rebels some) and it looks like the rebels overall have more rule breaking faction cards than the Empire (and yes it is very possible that I missed some), now the ones I hear about (on here, as almost no one in my group plays them, as we find they are not worth it) are the Demolisher and Major Rhymer. Maybe they are more powerful to the way that most people play, but getting back to the original point I can see having so many (42 by my count) cards that break the rules already I can see someone saying that either they did not do a good job of making the rules, or at the least saying that they do not like so many things braking them.

As for points (without getting into if it is worth it or not) it looks like the rebels get a point break on several things (and this is not to say that the Empire does not have so good combo's, just that the Rebels seam to get things for cheaper). Example – Tantive IV to Commandant Aresko (3 – 7 points, tantive has longer range and uses the ship title slot compared to the much more useful commander slot). Or cards that kind of do the opposite Jaina’s light to Admiral Montferrate (2 – 5 points, with Jaina’s light doing more for less and having no drawbacks also is the counter to the more expensive card and again using the ship tile slot compared to the commander slot.

Why should bombers be able to hit ships without ships firing back? Where is this seen ever in Star Wars? The fighters and bombers typically hug the surface of the ship they are attacking. Why even play if bombers can shoot at red range and you can have 13 Y-wings and several BCC?

Just listing off upgrade abilities does not mean the game is unbalanced or broken. Because technically, every upgrade would be breaking the rules from your point of view and you should just play vanilla ships and squads. Demo is one of the few upgrades that legitimately bends the rules because you are supposed to shoot then move. This is a core mechanic to the game, whereas a lot of these other things simply do a thing, or change a thing.

Boba Fett deals one damage. How is this breaking the rules?

Tagge gives you discarded defense tokens. How is this breaking the rules?

Mon Karren limits the amount of defense tokens used. How is this breaking the rules?

What part of the RRG are you pulling "These upgrades are breaking the rules because of X, Y, Z." Yes, some of them significantly alter the rules such as Yavaris. What about the other upgrades for both factions?

I play both Armada and X-wing and the rules "shenanigans" that can be pulled in Armada along with the lack of defense dice can make for a cruel outcome. In the OPs post, it seems like he out-gamed (meta'd) his opponent and ruined his introduction to the game. My enthusiasm for both games has been waning lately, but at least in X-wing the extreme variety of the dice can give some wild outcomes, at times robbing you of what seemed a guaranteed kill at others saving you from a poor move.

In Armada, player skill is bigger factor. MUCH bigger. A skilled player armed with a good list will DEMOLISH (see what I did there?) anyone without that same combo. A really skilled player can even take a 'goof around' list and dismantle someone. I'm a very mediocre Armada player and I tend to like 'balanced, fluffy' lists. This often means against anyone except maybe a new player, I'll get blanked 0-10. Any kind of meta list, MottISDs, ackbar conga lines....whatever other fancy names that I havent heard of yet....pound me into oblivion. Armada uses whats called a "Permissive Ruleset", meaning it has a core rulebook with all the basic rules but then card text gives you permission to exceed or modify those rules. "break" if you will. Meta-gaming is learning to maximize those effects to your advantage or your opponents disadvantage. People don't take Major Rhymer in a list because his card art looks cool, and they don't put Turbolaser Reroute Circuits on a CR-90 because it sounds fun.

Even in a clinical environment, a player removed the from local meta that just plays with friends will eventually figure out the meta. They'll tinker with lists, play around with ideas and soon enough they'll throw together something close to a meta list and waste their friends. So when it comes to Armada (and X-wing lets be honest) either you learn to play with the meta, or resign yourself to beaten by it. I hold out a small amount of hope for Corellian Conflict since a more narrative way to play Armada might just redeem it.

First thoughts from the original poster I can understand where he is coming from. For two main reasons first the things that they have special characters do does not make a lot of sense. Take Luke for example going off the movies (I have not read many books and from the few I have read can not remember him doing anything in an X-wing) where do they come up with that he can ignore shields? The whole reason that they were using photon torpedoes was so it could go through the ray shielding, so that is not something special about Luke (maybe the torpedoes).

It's kind of the thing that Luke is known for in the movies. Beyond waving a "light-saver", the average person who is passingly familiar with EpIV will know that Luke blew up the giant Danger-Egg. He also did it with the guidance of magic the Force, which was a thing that was unique to him amongst the Rebels. Yes, it was technically the photon torpedoes that bypassed the ray shielding, but they had to be shot by someone. I see this ability as analogous to the 'Back-stab' type abilities in miniatures and RPG games. You're using the same knife that other people can use, but it's you who finds the ***** in the armour and hits the mark. Luke is just exploiting magic the Force to penetrate ship's armour.

I heard a very interesting interview (or an account of a discussion, I can't remember) with a senior chap from FFG, possibly on SUSD or Tuesday Knight Games podcast, where he talked about how they come up with abilities. They start with the theming, looking at the relevant thing or person in lore, and ask 'what is this known for and how can we translate that into the game?', rather than just assigning an ability at random.

Some things are more obviously associated than others because the game system is an abstraction to represent Pew Pew Spaceship combat and you could pick apart the minutia, but I can see quite a number of associations from what I know (basically films only) and that is reportedly the way they work.

Edit: Really? 'ch¡nk' is a banned word?

I will freely admit that I do not know a lot about the expanded universe but a lot of the abilities that they give (not saying game breaking, rules yes, game for you to decide) do not feel right to me. for example I think that a better way of doing Luke would have been to give him more dice, or better dice something like that showing how he can find the week spot. As I said I play both factions, but I do feel that the designers have a bias towards the rebels giving them more for less, now some of the Empire ships are easier to play but over all the Rebels look to get cheaper upgrades when compared to the Empire counterparts. My guess on why they banned it is because PC, even though it has a legit use like you were using it for it has also been used as a derogatory term.

First thoughts from the original poster I can understand where he is coming from. For two main reasons first the things that they have special characters do does not make a lot of sense. Take Luke for example going off the movies (I have not read many books and from the few I have read can not remember him doing anything in an X-wing) where do they come up with that he can ignore shields? The whole reason that they were using photon torpedoes was so it could go through the ray shielding, so that is not something special about Luke (maybe the torpedoes). And second why even have them break the rules? I do not see adding extra dice and such as breaking the rules so things like Wedge I do not see as breaking the rules, also I do not see most of the upgrade cards as breaking the rules.

I was giving this a lot of thought and the only really game breaking element I found is the Rhymerball. The fact that it can fire at capital ships from a distance where the capital ship can't even fire back at them (I'm looking at you Liberty!!!) is just ridiculous. It would be fine if every capital ship could fire on fighters in blue range but as things are now the Rhymerball can wipe out a ship before the ship can fire back. No bomber balls should survive run on a capital ship without losing at least some wings...

Two things with this, first most anti-ship squadrons should be able to attack from outside the range of the ship, but we will just go with it being game balance that they said the range of anti-ship and anti-squadron are the same. Second I did a quick look at what I have with me and here is what I came up with for breaking the rules. As I have said I do not see adding/changing dice as breaking the rules. Also as I do not think that most of the upgrade cards are rule breaking (I think it is mostly the named/faction cards) I am only looking at faction specific and not really looking at the cost.

Rebel Ships

Gallant Haven – squadrons ignore one damage if in range

Dodonna’s pride – ignore shields

Jaina’s light – take no damage from obstacles, and are never obstructed

Tantive IV – give command token to other ship

Bright Hope – ignore one damage unless attacked in the rear

Admonition – cancel one attack die, by discarding a defense token

Foresight – evades affect twice the dice, and/or redirects can go to second zone.

Mon Karren – can not spend more than one defense token

Salvation – Crits count as two hits not one

Yavaris – squadrons give up move for second attack

Rebel people

General Cracken – if at speed 3 or higher count as obstructed

General Dodonna – pick the critical hit to be given

General Rieekan – ships/named squadrons are not removed tell end phase

Mon Mothma – evade works closer

Adar Tallon – lets fighter get second turn

Leia Organa – change ships command dial to match

Raymus Antilles – get command token and still have command dial to use

Rebel squadrons

Tycho Celchu – can still move even if engaged

Jan Ors – Let others spend you defense tokens

Nym – on blue crit pick and discard one of enemy defense tokens

Luke Skywalker – ignore shields

Dutch Vander – toggle activation slider on fighter

Han Solo – go before first player

Empire ships

Demolisher – can shoot once after moving

Insidious – black dice can shoot to medium range if shooting in the rear

Impetuous – get third attack against one single fighter

Avenger – defender can not use exhausted defense tokens

Suppressor – at end of enemy ships turn if in range can exhaust one of its defense tokens

Empire people

Admiral Titus – change one ships speed by one before game starts

Admiral Chiraneau – engaged fighters can move at speed two if commanded by squadron command

Admiral Montferrat – If at speed three or higher count as obstructed, lost if ever overlapping a ship.

Commandant Aresko – gain a command token

Admiral Konstantine – if in range of two medium/large ships can change speed by one

General Tagge – 3^rd and 5^th round recover 1 discarded defense token

Director Isard – look at command dials of one enemy ship

Empire squdrons

IG-88 – Ignore Escort and Counter

Boba Fett – do one damage at start of turn

Darth Vader – Count crits as normal damage

Major Rhymer – attack up to medium range

Mauler Mithel – do one damage to every fighter engaged with you

Soontir Fel – any fighter not attacking you take one damaged

Dengar – gives counter +1

I play both factions (more the empire, but have started playing the Rebels some) and it looks like the rebels overall have more rule breaking faction cards than the Empire (and yes it is very possible that I missed some), now the ones I hear about (on here, as almost no one in my group plays them, as we find they are not worth it) are the Demolisher and Major Rhymer. Maybe they are more powerful to the way that most people play, but getting back to the original point I can see having so many (42 by my count) cards that break the rules already I can see someone saying that either they did not do a good job of making the rules, or at the least saying that they do not like so many things braking them.

As for points (without getting into if it is worth it or not) it looks like the rebels get a point break on several things (and this is not to say that the Empire does not have so good combo's, just that the Rebels seam to get things for cheaper). Example – Tantive IV to Commandant Aresko (3 – 7 points, tantive has longer range and uses the ship title slot compared to the much more useful commander slot). Or cards that kind of do the opposite Jaina’s light to Admiral Montferrate (2 – 5 points, with Jaina’s light doing more for less and having no drawbacks also is the counter to the more expensive card and again using the ship tile slot compared to the commander slot.

Why should bombers be able to hit ships without ships firing back? Where is this seen ever in Star Wars? The fighters and bombers typically hug the surface of the ship they are attacking. Why even play if bombers can shoot at red range and you can have 13 Y-wings and several BCC?

Just listing off upgrade abilities does not mean the game is unbalanced or broken. Because technically, every upgrade would be breaking the rules from your point of view and you should just play vanilla ships and squads. Demo is one of the few upgrades that legitimately bends the rules because you are supposed to shoot then move. This is a core mechanic to the game, whereas a lot of these other things simply do a thing, or change a thing.

Boba Fett deals one damage. How is this breaking the rules?

Tagge gives you discarded defense tokens. How is this breaking the rules?

Mon Karren limits the amount of defense tokens used. How is this breaking the rules?

What part of the RRG are you pulling "These upgrades are breaking the rules because of X, Y, Z." Yes, some of them significantly alter the rules such as Yavaris. What about the other upgrades for both factions?

As for bombers I was talking more real life, that is why we have interceptors and other fighters to go and intercept them before they can shoot the carriers and such, and rereading it I can see that I was not even close to clear about real life. I did not say that the game was unbalanced or broken and I believe that I said that most upgraded cards I do not think are breaking the rules

As I have said I do not see adding/changing Also as I do not think that most of the upgrade cards are rule breaking (I think it is mostly the named/faction cards) I am only looking at faction specific and not really looking at the cost.

Yep, that looks like I was clear that I do not see "Because technically, every upgrade would be breaking the rules from your point of view and you should just play vanilla ships and squads."

"Boba Fett deals one damage. How is this breaking the rules?" Because at the start of his turn he just auto does a point of damage, no roll and as it is not an attack you can not defend against it.

"Tagge gives you discarded defense tokens. How is this breaking the rules?" Where in the rules does it say that you can get something that has been discarded can come back, I can not find it.

"Mon Karren limits the amount of defense tokens used. How is this breaking the rules?" What I can find in the rules say "...the defender can spend one or more of his defense tokens as described below" So the rules say the defender can spend one or more as they decide, but not this card says that they can not. Is it a major issue, not with me as there are other things that according to the rules can limit them, but this is not one so it does break a rule.

"What part of the RRG are you pulling "These upgrades are breaking the rules because of X, Y, Z." Yes, some of them significantly alter the rules such as Yavaris. What about the other upgrades for both factions?" I am not sure what you are trying to say here, but the only part that I think is clear is Yavaris, it is not significantly altering the rules it is breaking them (aging not say it is good or bad) but squadrons under a squadron command can move and shoot in whatever order they want, the rules never give them the option of shooting twice. So the when Yavaris gives that option it is breaking the rules. (and just for the record I use Yavaris almost every time I play the rebels.)

Is there a good starter guide that is up to date? If I'm looking into starting to play Armada - what do I need? What should I get first? What should I skip or do later?

Core + ???

Wander over to fleet builds and check out a few of the ideas being thrown around there, and you should get a pretty good idea of where to commit.

I play both Armada and X-wing and the rules "shenanigans" that can be pulled in Armada along with the lack of defense dice can make for a cruel outcome. In the OPs post, it seems like he out-gamed (meta'd) his opponent and ruined his introduction to the game. My enthusiasm for both games has been waning lately, but at least in X-wing the extreme variety of the dice can give some wild outcomes, at times robbing you of what seemed a guaranteed kill at others saving you from a poor move.

In Armada, player skill is bigger factor. MUCH bigger. A skilled player armed with a good list will DEMOLISH (see what I did there?) anyone without that same combo. A really skilled player can even take a 'goof around' list and dismantle someone. I'm a very mediocre Armada player and I tend to like 'balanced, fluffy' lists. This often means against anyone except maybe a new player, I'll get blanked 0-10. Any kind of meta list, MottISDs, ackbar conga lines....whatever other fancy names that I havent heard of yet....pound me into oblivion. Armada uses whats called a "Permissive Ruleset", meaning it has a core rulebook with all the basic rules but then card text gives you permission to exceed or modify those rules. "break" if you will. Meta-gaming is learning to maximize those effects to your advantage or your opponents disadvantage. People don't take Major Rhymer in a list because his card art looks cool, and they don't put Turbolaser Reroute Circuits on a CR-90 because it sounds fun.

Even in a clinical environment, a player removed the from local meta that just plays with friends will eventually figure out the meta. They'll tinker with lists, play around with ideas and soon enough they'll throw together something close to a meta list and waste their friends. So when it comes to Armada (and X-wing lets be honest) either you learn to play with the meta, or resign yourself to beaten by it. I hold out a small amount of hope for Corellian Conflict since a more narrative way to play Armada might just redeem it.

Expanding on what you're saying here, one of the things I really miss from playing more traditional wargames is the concept of a themed force. By which I mean that players would come up with an idea for a force that matched something from the lore, build their army around it with self imposed restrictions, and then model and paint their figures to match their theme. Armada and X Wing are much more clinical than that. People take the powerful combinations, and nothing else, and no consideration is given to anything other than efficiency and power level. And this is because (IMO) the upgrades alter the game in such significant ways that playing without them is madness. If their effects were much more subdued, I imagine the game would appeal to a wider base of players but that wouldn't match FFGs policy of making new ships attractive by stuffing them full of powerful new upgrades.