UPDATE: Using all the information I gathered from this thread and being incredibly self critical I came clean to my friend that I showed him an imbalanced game that was essentially designed to frustrate him. I did it intentionally, but it wasn't a fair representation of the game. He was skeptical, but as I talked through the points raised in this thread his excitement started growing again and he is now looking forward to giving Armada another shot, starting with none or relatively generic upgrades to get comfortable, then moving into the more technical stuff. Thanks community for all your help in adding a new player.

So last weekend I played a game against a good friend who has a long history of playing tabletop miniature games and is also a huge Star Wars fan, who I figured to be a shoe-in for Armada.

However, the way the game shook out has bugging me for days, and I wanted to see how you all would address his complaint. TL;DR is that he thought the Dials, maneuver tool, and rules of the game were laid out brilliantly, but was SUPER frustrated that every card text (Especially Dodonna's Pride and Tycho, in this instance) revolved around breaking these rules, "ruining" what would otherwise be an awesome game. If you don't care to read any more you could essentially join the conversation knowing only that.

If you have nothing else to do while waiting for an article, and care to help me a little more in depth, read on:

My opponent is a good wargamer, so I know better than to play easy on him. We play out the first turn positioning, then the firing happens, we trade ship kills early as Salvation bites the dust and I pepper the ISD. So far he is having a great time. He mentions how the command stack is excellent in making large ships feel large and small ones feel nimble, and how much he likes the movement tool. He even thinks the range finding and spotting is good and is really enjoying the game. Start of turn 3, however, my Dodonna's Pride double arc's his raider and rolls a crit in each roll. With Dodonna I fish up 2 structurals, so his raider is toast. He is a little irked. A few turns later when D. Pride sweeps in and does it AGAIN (only without structurals) on his ISD, crippling it and allowing me to take it off the board, his aggravation grows. In all, I think the only round I DIDN'T get at least one damage card from D.Pride was the first when there was no shooting. He was definitely the MVP of the game.

Later, in the squad phase, I moved Tycho out of his engagement to tie up a bomber that would otherwise have destroyed my transport. Again, he understood that Tycho, arbitrarily because of the text on his card, was allowed to move out of engagement. But he was now noticibly upset.

When we were finished he was incredibly frustrated and said that he was tired of companies that, "Won't simply develop a straight-forward war game, but the feel need to add these bull**** 'heroes' doing rule bending and game breaking stuff that just couldn't happen." He persisted that cards like the aforementioned absolutely destroyed this game, and that if Armada would just oblige by it's own rules it would be a much better game.

This complaint hit me totally sideways as it was a complaint I had not yet heard, so I really didn't have a good response. I tried to explain that normally titles like D.Pride are not as effective and that I had a hot rolling streak, but he was adamant that it made no sense for them to dismantle their own really well laid out rules in such a way. How could a ship die with full shields?

Additionally, this was not a case of a game going one-sided and the loser being full of salt either. Despite the hot streak of D.Pride, he still managed to take out Salvation, Jainas (TRC), and Mon Karren, so it ended up being a close game even though I did beat him.

I know my friend well, and I still feel like he would really get involved in Armada if he gave it another chance and I could convince him that the card texts were not in opposition to the rules, but how how the game is balanced so those "arbitrary rule breaks" don't break the actual game itself. I just haven't figured out how I would go about approaching the subject.

How would you address this one?

Sounds like a sore loser, sorry to be blunt, but there is nothing game breaking about either of those things.

Maybe let him win one? Cause I get the feeling that if he had pulled those things off it wouldn't have been an issue.

Two thoughts:

1) one can always play without upgrade cards if one likes. Personally, I think that would be very boring and it would be hard to kill much of anything.

2) it's mostly only frustrating when you don't know what to expect and don't know how to counter it. Most cards do have ways of countering them that come up in list designing and effectiveness of play. Those elements are what make Armada a replayable game for me. Otherwise, it would be a simple game of who gets to throw the most dice and that's not particularly interesting. Finding synergies in cards and ships, counters, ways to protect the flanks of your ships - that's what Armada is all about.

This is tough because I know how he feels.

When learning the game, the maneuver tool and stacks were so great. The game is truly a mini little Star Wars dance.

Then when my brother played Chiraneau to bump up his squads I was like "that's bullcr*p!" and he was like "well I did pay for it in my 300 points."

I've learned that the upgrades are the awesome sauce that goes with the meat of the game. Not only does it influence the fleet building and the planning, but it also allows FFG to continue to sell stuff to us and what we get in return is a game that has stayed remarkably fresh in my opinion.

This makes me think of MTG. They have a core set of rules, but they also have their golden rule "the card is always right and can override any other game rules". Some cards let you have an extra attack phase, take extra turns, draw more cards. I think the "break the rules" mechanic is a fun to play with because it breaks the stagnation of the game. With Tycho, you have freedom of movement which means I have to kill him. Otherwise what's to stop me from moving 1 Tie every turn to pin him. Same with Dodanna's Pride. It makes the game interesting because you only get 1 of it.

I've always enjoyed these types of things, and if he is coming from games where they don't do that, it likely feels unfair. I wouldn't let it bother you.

Sounds like this isn't the game for him.

Wouldn't it get exceedingly boring and stale rather quickly if there were no upgrades or abilities in game, just a bunch of vanilla ships???

The point of every upgrade or other card: they break/tweak/whatever the core rules to some extent.

Sounds like he wants the game to be more like chess or checkers with set rules each piece has to follow. Almost all games have upgrades and that is another huge layer of strategy. The game would get stale quickly without upgrades as they let you do so many different strategies and ships can change their role. The thing is, he could find someone like him and just play no upgrades like has been stated. I think he will warm up to the upgrades given time, otherwise he must be a bitter tabletop gamer taking past baggage into this game and not wanting to deal with changes(we all know someone like that).

I can see where he's coming from. Some of the biggest complaints people have relates to core rule breaking abilities on cards. I.E. Demo, Major Rhymer, Rogue, Intel, tycho etc. Not that these things are bad but just different and I could see how they would irk you if you weren't expecting them. Case and point when everything is brand new and your expecting the game is played by a very specific set of rules and then whoops just kidding demo triple taps you.

I seem to understand your friends mindset that he expected a Star Wars game of chess where you get to pick your pieces while in actuality you get to pick your pieces AND change the rules that govern each individual piece.

I'd try playing another game with generic naked ships and squadrons and see if he likes it better and introduce the game breaking stuff gradually.

Edit

Seems BMcDonald beat me to the punch. Great minds think alike

Sounds like this isn't the game for him.

That could be true. I could very well be wrong, but I think he might be making a hasty decision so am trying to find a way to revisit the topic with him, at least once.

otherwise he must be a bitter tabletop gamer taking past baggage into this game and not wanting to deal with changes(we all know someone like that).

This could also accurately describe him.

Sounds like this isn't the game for him.

That could be true. I could very well be wrong, but I think he might be making a hasty decision so am trying to find a way to revisit the topic with him, at least once.

Teach the game with maximum two upgrades per ship. Its overwhelming overwise.

Sounds like he's only considering half of the game. Every upgrade (and every upgrade breaks the core rules of the game) has a points cost, and the game is balanced towards those costs - and playing vanilla would also mean ships with lots of upgrade slots are overcosted if none of them get used.

It definitely could be a case of Judy being a sore loser. Maybe he thought RNG cheated him out of a legitimate chance to win (seriously, sounds like Dodanna crushed it.)

I have trouble believing that he genuinely thinks that rules modification through upgrades is a bad thing. I can see disliking certain effects if they are harmful to the game itself, but it sounds like that wasn't his issue.

Also did he have Rhymer and X17's?

I would be pissed off if we played the game for the first time, and you mucked about with Tycho and Dodonnas Pride whilst I have no power units myself...

Generally when I play a first game with a new player I keep it simple and forgo upgrade cards, it allows them to get use to the mechanics without these seeming out of the blue rule changes. Let people learn the rules, then if they come back for more introduce some basic cards. Just remember it was a nice slow build from your first core games onto wave one ect.....

Someone's gotta swoop in to this poor guys defense.

If my very first exposure to this game involved me playing somebody fielding Demo and Rhymer, I'd never play this game again.

Just saying first impressions last a life time and if your first impression is that the core rules mean nothing and that everything breaks the rules in order for them to be "unique" then ya I'd hate it too.

Someone's gotta swoop in to this poor guys defense.

If my very first exposure to this game involved me playing somebody fielding Demo and Rhymer, I'd never play this game again.

Just saying first impressions last a life time and if your first impression is that the core rules mean nothing and that everything breaks the rules in order for them to be "unique" then ya I'd hate it too.

Yeah, but that's not what happened, right?

It doesn't sound like an exploitative first game designer to punish his friend for inexperience.

I mean, Dodanna's Pride and Tycho are hardly the greatest abilities in the game.

I understand where the player is coming from. These games, ones with rule-breaking customization exception cards, are popular and definitely make for dynamic and interesting games. Unfortunately, some games get to a point where the entire game is played with so many exceptions you spend most of your time trying to play correctly instead of planning and executing tactics and strategies. I feel X-Wing suffers a lot from this, due to the countless number of upgrades available and quantity each ship can, and does take.

Exception Limitations, such as a max on the number of upgrades one can take on any ship/piece does help, but usually results in everyone taking the same (best) upgrades, which is not good. Ask yourself this, in Armada, how many times has you or your opponent forgotten to use an upgrade card, only realizing it later? Happens often, and is mostly due to trying to keep track of all the rules changes allowed by all these upgrades, both yours and your opponents. It can get overwhelming.

Some of my favorite X-Wing games were with lots of ships, without any upgrades. Easy to track and the focus was on the movement and firing strategies.

Someone's gotta swoop in to this poor guys defense.

If my very first exposure to this game involved me playing somebody fielding Demo and Rhymer, I'd never play this game again.

Just saying first impressions last a life time and if your first impression is that the core rules mean nothing and that everything breaks the rules in order for them to be "unique" then ya I'd hate it too.

Yeah, but that's not what happened, right?

It doesn't sound like an exploitative first game designer to punish his friend for inexperience.

I mean, Dodanna's Pride and Tycho are hardly the greatest abilities in the game.

They are if you arent prepared for them.

Face it. The first thing you do at the start of a game is scan your opponents list for dangerous cards.

You see Dodonnas pride, you line up to kill it or block it with a high hull ship.

You see Tycho, you put your intel ship on his tail.

When I teach, the first game is always squadron less, actually. And minimal upgrades. 200-300 points of mostly ship, to get them used to maneuvering without having to think of the minute details (but they always manage to ram themselves). Second game I introduce squadrons.

Unless I'm teaching X-wing players or identity have their own stuff and have prepared a list. Then I include fun upgrades and light fighters

Someone's gotta swoop in to this poor guys defense.

If my very first exposure to this game involved me playing somebody fielding Demo and Rhymer, I'd never play this game again.

Just saying first impressions last a life time and if your first impression is that the core rules mean nothing and that everything breaks the rules in order for them to be "unique" then ya I'd hate it too.

Yeah, but that's not what happened, right?

It doesn't sound like an exploitative first game designer to punish his friend for inexperience.

I mean, Dodanna's Pride and Tycho are hardly the greatest abilities in the game.

How do you know that's not what happened?

All I know is that this was the guys first game and that abilities that break core rules upset him. This is irrelevant to an experienced player thinking Tycho and Dodonna are mediocre cards at best.

From what I know from what the OP wrote is that to me at least, its not this outrageous outcome that the guy walked away with a sour taste in his mouth. And for people to immediately jump to the conclusion "it's because he's a sore looser" is short sighted in my opinion.

Edit

I must be a slow typist. Beaten again by another valid post

I will add my voice to those suggesting only a few upgrades. Games that have "rule breaking" cards or upgrades can be very difficult for new players. If you don't know how combinations work, you will be easily surprised and your list building will not be as good. You might be at a disadvantage from the very outset.

I think Warmahordes is similar in that every card breaks rules and it can therefore be nigh on impossible to understand what your opponent is capable of. If you don't know his/her capabilities, you cannot plan for things. Without planning, you feel powerless and that isn't fun.

When you are a new player to a game, you learn the core rules.

As a teacher I think it's important to just utilize those core rules for the first few plays.

Let them get a feel for the base game before hitting them with all the exceptions and mechanic-bending upgrades. Otherwise it can feel like you set the player up with some expectations and then blind-sided them in order to win.

One step at a time. Let them internalize the rules before you start breaking them.