Check my logic please

Red Squadron Veteran (26)
Daredevil (3)
R2 Astromech (1)
Pattern Analyzer (2)
Experimental Interface (3)

Total: 35

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1)Perform a green maneuver

2) Perform an action

3) Expirimental Interface for a Green Daredevil move, then gain 1 stress. Then gain 1 stress from the interface.

4) Pattern analyzer sees you performed 2 green maneuvers, and clears all stress.

Is this correct?

I was going to say that R2 Astro doesn't make your Daredevil turns green, citing the interaction between R2 and Damaged Engine, but when I looked in the FAQ for a citation, I was reminded of the fact that R2 Astro does work on the white 1 straight ion maneuver, which is essentially the same situation. So now I'm thinking yeah, this probably does work. Interesting!

ETA: The only wrinkle I see is that maybe, since the second maneuver (inside Daredevil) is during the Perform Action step, Pattern Analyzer's delay wouldn't work quite the same way. I'm not convinced it's a problem, though, since "after the Perform Action step" is clearly still later than "during the Perform Action step".

Why would pattern analyzer remove the stress? it lets you do an action before the stress is assigned, it doesnt do anything about removing it

Why would pattern analyzer remove the stress? it lets you do an action before the stress is assigned, it doesnt do anything about removing it

Oh thats dirty....

yeah...thats a thing...that is totally a thing... no flippin way thats intended but i dont see a way to argue against it other than strictly that: BUT THATS NOT INTENDED!! lol which of course holds little weight.

No.

I'm not certain R2 Astromech can turn Daredevil green, but for the purposes of this explanation I'll assume it will.

The Activation Phase has three steps: Reveal Dial, Execute Maneuver, Perform Action. Execute Maneuver has two ¹ parts: Move Ship and Check Pilot Stress.

The full version is thus Reveal Dial, Execute Maneuver (Move Ship, Check Pilot Stress), Perform Action.

Pattern Analyzer somehow manages to cut Execute Maneuver in half, making it Reveal Dial, Execute Maneuver (Move Ship), Perform Action, Execute Maneuver (Check Pilot Stress).

Experimental Interface consists of Perform Action, Assign Stress Token.

Daredevil consists of Execute Maneuver, Assign Stress Token, so fully expanded it'd be Move Ship, Check Pilot Stress, Assign Stress Token.

The full sequence is therefore Reveal Dial, Execute Maneuver (Move Ship) Perform Action, Experimental Interface (Daredevil (Execute Maneuver (Move Ship, Check Pilot Stress), Assign Stress Token), Assign Stress Token), Execute Maneuver (Check Pilot Stress).

If you execute a green move you'd reveal your dial, move, perform an action, trigger Experimental Interface, perform Daredevil's move, lose one stress ² from green Daredevil move ³ , gain one stress from Daredevil, gain one stress from Experimental Interface, lose one stress from your initial green move.

To summarise, you'd lose a stress then gain two stress then lose a stress, ending up with one stress token as you can't have negative stress.

What you're thinking is sending the Check Pilot Stress from Daredevil to the back of the queue. Rules as Intended I believe you can only affect your dialled activation manuever with Pattern Analyzer and can't use it on specific maneuvers from abilities. If you could bounce the Check Pilot Stress part of Execute Maneuver from abilities to after the next Perform Action step then how would action passing outside of your activation work? Would you be able to delay receiving or losing stress until the next round?

What about Rules as Written? Under the current rules as written Pattern Analyzer doesn't actually work at all. It says "when executing a maneuver" and there's no Perform Action step in Execute Maneuver.

If you want Rules As Intended it's better to think of Pattern Analyzer as a variant of Advanced Sensors that triggers after you maneuver rather than before. I'm not entirely sure why it's phrased the way it currently is: the Advanced Sensors wording would have been much clearer. The only sacrifice would be the inability to perform SLAM but with no SLAM/Tech combo presently existing that's not much of an issue.

I believe Pattern Analyzer will probably receive errata to properly fit the current ruleset at some point.

1: There's a Clean Up step too which is housekeeping but it isn't mechanically relevant.
2: Remember that in order to execute the Daredevil action you must (usually) be unstressed.
3: Assuming R2 Astromech can turn Daredevil green.

I'm not certain R2 Astromech can turn Daredevil green, but for the purposes of this explanation I'll assume it will.

Well based on the FAQ it seems you're correct, although this is another case of FFG saying 'it works like this because we say so, regardless of the rules say'

The FAQ says "A ship that performs the Daredevil action follows all normal rules for executing a maneuver, except that the maneuver is always treated as a white maneuver."

Clearly per RAW R2 should make those white maneuvers green for the same reason that it makes the Ion maneuver green. But apparently FFG has added yet another exception to the rules.

Trying to explain this has made me realise that Pattern Analyzer doesn't actually do anything at all.

"When executing a maneuver you may resolve the "Check Pilot Stress" step after the Perform Action step (instead of before that step.)"

There is no Perform Action step within Execute Maneuver.

Unfortunately, the only way for Daredevil to clear a stress is if you already have a stress beforehand, which basically is restricted to Chopper crew as of right now. Experimental interface gives you a stress after the action, while the green maneuver from daredevil IS the action. Keep in mind it's the green maneuver itself which has its own check pilot stress step.

Basically if you Chopper a daredevil while stressed, you won't receive a second stress, but otherwise there are no (current) useful interactions with R2 Astromech.

Too bad systems officer can't be used by rebels. That would be a fun interaction to abuse. Admittedly, you'd have to use an ARC-170 so it probably wouldn't be worth it.

My head hurts

Trying to explain this has made me realise that Pattern Analyzer doesn't actually do anything at all.

"When executing a maneuver you may resolve the "Check Pilot Stress" step after the Perform Action step (instead of before that step.)"

There is no Perform Action step within Execute Maneuver.

Has anybody figured out that you can only remove ONE stress token? Regardless of how many green manoeuvres you can stack up, it doesn't change the fact that the Check Pilot Stress step only removes one token at a time.

Has anybody figured out that you can only remove ONE stress token? Regardless of how many green manoeuvres you can stack up, it doesn't change the fact that the Check Pilot Stress step only removes one token at a time.

Because the stress from Daredevil happens after you complete the manoeuvre, so it happens after Check Pilot Stress has occurred.

Has anybody figured out that you can only remove ONE stress token? Regardless of how many green manoeuvres you can stack up, it doesn't change the fact that the Check Pilot Stress step only removes one token at a time.

Why? Each of those maneuvers has its own Check Pilot Stress, so why not remove a stress for each of them?

Because the stress from Daredevil happens after you complete the manoeuvre, so it happens after Check Pilot Stress has occurred.

That's not what we're talking about.

OK, sequence:

Move

Perform action (before check stress because Pattern Analyser)

Focus (or whatever

Trigger EI

> Daredevil

> Daredevil check stress - no stress currently, or we wouldn't have been able to do it (chopper crew is the only way and there's nothing currently with Crew and Tech)

> Daredevil gives stress

EI gives stress

Check pilot stress step for original move, remove one of the two stress gained.

What sequence are you proposing?

Sorry for the terse initial response. I think I see where this tangent went off the rails, and it comes from me posting in a hurry.

OK, sequence:

Move

Perform action (before check stress because Pattern Analyser)

Focus (or whatever

Trigger EI

> Daredevil

> Daredevil check stress - no stress currently, or we wouldn't have been able to do it (chopper crew is the only way and there's nothing currently with Crew and Tech)

> Daredevil gives stress

EI gives stress

Check pilot stress step for original move, remove one of the two stress gained.

What sequence are you proposing?

The thesis of this thread is that you can use Pattern Analyzer to defer the "Check Pilot Stress" from the Daredevil maneuver too, meaning that it would happen at the same time as the one from the original maneuver, thus clearing Daredevil's stress.

But that's not what I was talking about when I replied to Parravon:

Has anybody figured out that you can only remove ONE stress token? Regardless of how many green manoeuvres you can stack up, it doesn't change the fact that the Check Pilot Stress step only removes one token at a time.

Why? Each of those maneuvers has its own Check Pilot Stress, so why not remove a stress for each of them?

It looked to me like Parravon was arguing that performing 2 green maneuvers resulted in only one Check Pilot Stress step, and I was asking why that would be the case.

On a second, slower, read, I see the important "one stress token at a time " at the end of Parravon's post, so I think I was wrong in my initial read, and that Parravon was actually arguing for the same kind of sequence as you.

The whole question is: if you execute a maneuver as part of your Perform Action step, can you use Pattern Analyzer to delay that maneuver's Check Pilot Stress step until after the Perform Action step ends? If so (and if R2 Astro makes the Daredevil turn green), this combo should work. If not, why not?

The whole question is: if you execute a maneuver as part of your Perform Action step, can you use Pattern Analyzer to delay that maneuver's Check Pilot Stress step until after the Perform Action step ends? If so (and if R2 Astro makes the Daredevil turn green), this combo should work. If not, why not?

Well the simple answer is, that R2 does not make Daredevils turns green. The FAQ seems quite clear on this point, it says "except that the maneuver is always treated as a white maneuver."

Which means R2 can't make it into a green maneuver.

that said if you could perform two maneuvers in a single turn you could remove two stress, one for each maneuver.

The whole question is: if you execute a maneuver as part of your Perform Action step, can you use Pattern Analyzer to delay that maneuver's Check Pilot Stress step until after the Perform Action step ends? If so (and if R2 Astro makes the Daredevil turn green), this combo should work. If not, why not?

Well the simple answer is, that R2 does not make Daredevils turns green. The FAQ seems quite clear on this point, it says "except that the maneuver is always treated as a white maneuver."

Which means R2 can't make it into a green maneuver.

That would be some Grade-A "because we said so", given that the wording specifying the speed and color of an ion maneuver, which R2 Astro does work with, is the same as that describing the Daredevil turn.

Not saying it won't happen, mind. Just saying it would be inconsistent.

That would be some Grade-A "because we said so"

Which I said a few posts ago, it's highly irritating that they make these kinds of ruling. But if you look through the FAQ for Daredevil it seems quite clear to me that Daredevil is an exception to the normal rules... Because FFG says so.

Page 13 of the 4.2.1 FAQ says...

Daredevil

A ship that performs the Daredevil action follows all normal rules for executing a maneuver, except that the maneuver is always treated as a white maneuver. Daredevil may be performed even if the ship would overlap another ship or obstacle; resolve the overlapping as normal.

I just don't see how it can be read any other way then the maneuver from Daredevil not being changed by R2, even though I completely agree it should.

I'm not sure this works.

I get that what you're proposing is this sequence :

• Reveal Dial
  • Execute Maneuver (A) : Green 2-straight
  • Move Ship
  • Check Pilot Stress (A)
  • Clean Up
• Perform Action (focus)
• Trigger Experimental Interface
  • Perform Daredevil Action
    • Execute Maneuver (B) : Green 1-hard
      • Move Ship
      • Check Pilot Stress (B)
      • Clean Up
    • Receive 1 stress token
  • Receive 1 stress token
• Pattern Analyzer moves Check Pilot Stress (A) here
  • Remove 1 stress token
• Pattern Analyzer moves Check Pilot Stress (B) here
  • ​Remove 1 stress token

However, I don't think you can use Pattern Analyzer to move a Check Pilot Stress step from one maneuver after the Perform Action Step of another maneuver. In other words, since Maneuver B doesn't actually have a Perform Action Step, you can't use Pattern Analyzer to move the Check Pilot Stress step.


===================================

If what you're proposing works, then could you do something like this?

Find some way of letting RSV perform an action after his normal activation (say Airen Cracken, Lando or Squad Leader), and have him perform a Daredevil action. Can you move his Check Pilot Stress step until after his Perform Action step in the following round?

This could let you do this :

• RSV gets free action: Daredevil
  • delays Check Pilot Stress with Pattern Analyzer
  • Receives 1 stress token
• RSV gets shot at by Tactician, receives 2nd stress token

Next round...

• Reveal Dial
• Execute Maneuver : Green 2-straight
  • Move Ship
  • Check Pilot Stress (delayed by Pattern Analyzer)
  • Clean Up
• Perform Action - Nope, stressed
• Check Pilot Stress (from round 2 maneuver)
• Check Pilot Stress (from round 1 Daredevil)
• No more stress!

Per the Rules Reference section on Difficulty found on page 10 "• If two game effects conflict in changing the difficulty of a maneuver, the effect that makes the maneuver more difficult takes priority. The other effect is ignored." This tells me that since Daredevil says the maneuver is white, the astromech can't make it green.

Per the Rules Reference section on Difficulty found on page 10 "• If two game effects conflict in changing the difficulty of a maneuver, the effect that makes the maneuver more difficult takes priority. The other effect is ignored." This tells me that since Daredevil says the maneuver is white, the astromech can't make it green.

The logic that was applied to an ion's 1-straight white maneuver is that, since ion says "perform a white 1-straight maneuver", it isn't changing the difficulty , it's just a white maneuver. And R2 changes the difficulty , so it can make the ion's 1-straight green.

Daredevil is similar. It doesn't change the difficulty of a maneuver, it just says to "perform a white 1-hard maneuver". Which is why people think R2 should be able to change the difficulty to green.

The changing difficult priority is when something says a maneuver is red when it normally isnt, either by default or with an upgrade saying its white/green. That way if you get "all turns are red" but you have R2 theres no question if your 1/2turns are green or red, because the "more difficult one" trumps the good one.

Daredevil isnt applied to that because it simply IS a white maneuver per the faq, and any maneuver is affected by any card stating "Treat this maneuver as RGW" - i dont think anything states the difficulty of a maneuver cant be modified (talking specific card or something like that here).

Which actually makes me think of another bad thought of Daredevil....the crit your turns are red doesnt specify your dial...so that means daredevil became a red as well lol..double stress ouch

Which is why people think R2 should be able to change the difficulty to green.

Yeah, bgrelle isn't correct since Daredevil is setting all three parts of an maneuver, not changing the difficulty of an existing one. Same as with Ion rules.

When I read Blue Five's post (#6 in the thread) I had written up exactly why R2 would work with Daredevil, using the same argument as Klutz. I decided to look up something in the FAQ and then found the section I quoted. Which is again IMO clearly states that the turn from Daredevil doesn't follow the normal rules... Because FFG says so.

So I'm going to write this off as RAI becoming RAW via the FAQ. It's not like it's the first time such a thing has happened.