The mission statement for the league was to aim for slightly below the top top power curve, the idea being that we'd have a little room for error. If we aim significantly below the power curve, we'd end up with many custom cards that would not be considered viable and would not be taken (an argument could be made that this happened anyway). And then we'd end up giving people an incentive to run meta lists with cheap custom cards tacked on in the tournament - which is also completely legal right now. Running a typical Palp-Aces build and slapping torpedo loadout on the Inquisitor is perfectly legal under the current tournament rules, for example. (By the way I think the tournament rules should also be adjusted to ensure more custom cards are really incorporated into the built squads).

The gunboats are obviously better than many traditional jousting ships. But where are jousting ships in the current metagame? Certainly there are no B-wings of any stripe in the metagame, so I don't think a comparison to them makes any sense, nor does a comparison to the base statline Y-wing (which mirrors the gunboat and is 2 points more expensive). The only time we see Y-wings is with specific TLT-based builds (TLT thugs or stressbot), just as the only time that we see gunboats is when they have cannons.

the best comparison we had on hand to test the jousting power of the gunboats was triple jumps, and gunboats lost consistently in the matchups I tested, and were adjusted to prevent 4 medium PS gunboats from carrying HLCs, which probably would have been more effective in a direct matchup against jumpmasters. It can certainly be argued that a new test of their jousting power is needed since jumpmasters got hit with the nerf bat. But while triple jump masters were meta-defining, they were not meta-dominating (they were arguably part of a meta tripod, did not outright win every high-level tournament in which they were brought, and were routinely beaten by other top lists).

I've not seen any matchups so far where the gunboats have gone up against a top tier meta list and won (and I have seen them lose to a top-tier jousting list repeatedly). If it's the case that they can consistently beat established meta lists, then they should of course be nerfed.

Play what you want to, or what you think will win you matches. Half the purpose of this tournament is to identify flaws in the custom cards. If you think gunboats are OP, I think you should prove it on a table. It doesn't need to be a tournament table, but I think that they're in the range where actual testing is needed, not theorycrafting.

In any case I think I'll be running test games with gunboats vs top lists outside the tournament to try to parse out where they fall in the metagame power curve. I suggest others do the same and report their findings.

Yah nerfing gunboats definitely affected balance for the ps2 gunboat. And pretty much any other jousting squad (other than a tie swarm, anyone tested a pattyswarm against gunboats?) only has 4 ships.

See i'm f*****. Cause i won my match. Time to go build an anti-gunboat list... Can't wait to play the new "most boring list to fight in the game" list.

In all seriousness, yeah they might be a tad OP... its a casual tourny, be a bit more forgiving imo. Or, we could errata them before any more games are played... I mean why not? FFG just set the example for us hehe.

Also, I think you are making some assumptions on how a Dengaroo player would approach this list. Id definately be game for testing it out.

Actually... I would very much like to try Palp/Defenders against it also. I am available for a few hours tomorrow afternoon and then starting Monday pretty well any time for 4 days. Anyone willing/able to throw 5 gunboats down and get some valid testing on them?

I am not entirely convinced they are overpowered against existing top tier lists. They are most certainly the standout of the ccl cards, I am just not quite willing to call them broken...yet.

EDIT: Double casters to. Pretty sure they could tear down this list also.

Furthermore, I agree with you Baba that for future tournies a slight tweak to the rules would enforce more custom card play.

By the look of it this was not an issue in round one but perhaps somethig like:

1. Minmum of three cards.

2. Or, Minmum of 10 points.

3. Or, munimum of one ship or pilot.

Scyks for example can now be fielded as 5 with adjusted title and mangler. Half the health, sure. But better dial and actions and backed by 3 agi. Comparable I would say.

The conversation I had with Kdubb last night, I was leaning toward undercosted for sure and used B wing as my base line... but perhaps the bwing is now overpriced in todays meta?

Im gonna stop posting now haha...Im sitting so on the fence with this im starting to pi$$ myself off lol.

I actually prefer the gunboats to the scyks i think. Faw less vulnerable to bad defense rolls

Personally id give 5 gunboats good odds against casters

I actually prefer the gunboats to the scyks i think. Faw less vulnerable to bad defense rolls

Personally id give 5 gunboats good odds against casters

Yeah I definately agree they could take a win over the casters, but I do not think it would be an easy one and by no means an assured one. The right approach from Ketsu could put two of them on a rock in one turn. Also the ps and insanely fast and maneuverable dial paired with eu could potentially see a skilled pilot keep only one or two in range and chip away.

See i'm f*****. Cause i won my match. Time to go build an anti-gunboat list... Can't wait to play the new "most boring list to fight in the game" list.

You assume I'll be playing gunboats again . I only used 3 in my list, not the five...but please do build assuming I will play them ;p.

In all seriousness, yeah they might be a tad OP... its a casual tourny, be a bit more forgiving imo. Or, we could errata them before any more games are played... I mean why not? FFG just set the example for us hehe.

Also, I think you are making some assumptions on how a Dengaroo player would approach this list. Id definately be game for testing it out.

Or we can just rename the tournament as Assault Gunboat League!

Honestly, the Gunboats are not priced wrong. It's the Manglers that are OP (now they just found their natural habitat).

This is my original squad that I won't play because of lack of Vassal skills:

"The Original Boats" - 99 points

See i'm f*****. Cause i won my match. Time to go build an anti-gunboat list... Can't wait to play the new "most boring list to fight in the game" list.

You assume I'll be playing gunboats again . I only used 3 in my list, not the five...but please do build assuming I will play them ;p.

In all seriousness, yeah they might be a tad OP... its a casual tourny, be a bit more forgiving imo. Or, we could errata them before any more games are played... I mean why not? FFG just set the example for us hehe.

Also, I think you are making some assumptions on how a Dengaroo player would approach this list. Id definately be game for testing it out.

Or we can just rename the tournament as Assault Gunboat League!

Honestly, the Gunboats are not priced wrong. It's the Manglers that are OP (now they just found their natural habitat).

Its hard to balance pricing on a 2 attack ship with a cannon slot. Wothout a cannon, it needs to be pretty cheap to be at all playable, but that mangler increases its offense by a significant margin. It migjt have actually been better to make it a 3 attack ship for a higher price, where all youd get from a mangler is the crits and removal of the range 3 bonus die

If you think gunboats are OP, I think you should prove it on a table.

Oh Baba, I love when you say kinky stuff...

That words will pretty much give wet dreams to every Gunboat cultist aficionado. Let us dream they will someday be truth... (in the official game, of course, because Gunboats will win this tournament!)

See i'm f*****. Cause i won my match. Time to go build an anti-gunboat list... Can't wait to play the new "most boring list to fight in the game" list.

You assume I'll be playing gunboats again . I only used 3 in my list, not the five...but please do build assuming I will play them ;p.

In all seriousness, yeah they might be a tad OP... its a casual tourny, be a bit more forgiving imo. Or, we could errata them before any more games are played... I mean why not? FFG just set the example for us hehe.

Also, I think you are making some assumptions on how a Dengaroo player would approach this list. Id definately be game for testing it out.

Or we can just rename the tournament as Assault Gunboat League!

Honestly, the Gunboats are not priced wrong. It's the Manglers that are OP (now they just found their natural habitat).

Its hard to balance pricing on a 2 attack ship with a cannon slot. Wothout a cannon, it needs to be pretty cheap to be at all playable, but that mangler increases its offense by a significant margin. It migjt have actually been better to make it a 3 attack ship for a higher price, where all youd get from a mangler is the crits and removal of the range 3 bonus die

3 attack primary and 21 points maybe. Cant go 22 because I think the B wing is better. Cant really go 20 or you still see 5 of them. Heh...this is a tricky bastard of a ship to flesh out.

Lets get some real testing done I say! Now that I have discovered this custom card league Im in for the long run. You chaps are stuck with me for better or worse.

See i'm f*****. Cause i won my match. Time to go build an anti-gunboat list... Can't wait to play the new "most boring list to fight in the game" list.

You assume I'll be playing gunboats again . I only used 3 in my list, not the five...but please do build assuming I will play them ;p.

In all seriousness, yeah they might be a tad OP... its a casual tourny, be a bit more forgiving imo. Or, we could errata them before any more games are played... I mean why not? FFG just set the example for us hehe.

Also, I think you are making some assumptions on how a Dengaroo player would approach this list. Id definately be game for testing it out.

Or we can just rename the tournament as Assault Gunboat League!

Honestly, the Gunboats are not priced wrong. It's the Manglers that are OP (now they just found their natural habitat).

Its hard to balance pricing on a 2 attack ship with a cannon slot. Wothout a cannon, it needs to be pretty cheap to be at all playable, but that mangler increases its offense by a significant margin. It migjt have actually been better to make it a 3 attack ship for a higher price, where all youd get from a mangler is the crits and removal of the range 3 bonus die

3 attack primary and 21 points maybe. Cant go 22 because I think the B wing is better. Cant really go 20 or you still see 5 of them. Heh...this is a tricky bastard of a ship to flesh out.

Lets get some real testing done I say! Now that I have discovered this custom card league Im in for the long run. You chaps are stuck with me for better or worse.

With just a 3 attack primary instead of manglers 5 doesnt scare me as much. It makes it more comparable to 5x kihraxz or fangs. And trades agility for health. That might still be better than the others since theres less variance, but by as significant a margin as the 5 manglers. Its notable that 5 kihraxz isnt a meta staple, though its at least decent. The lack of barrel roll or system slot definitely makes it worse than the same ps bwing.

See i'm f*****. Cause i won my match. Time to go build an anti-gunboat list... Can't wait to play the new "most boring list to fight in the game" list.

You assume I'll be playing gunboats again . I only used 3 in my list, not the five...but please do build assuming I will play them ;p.

In all seriousness, yeah they might be a tad OP... its a casual tourny, be a bit more forgiving imo. Or, we could errata them before any more games are played... I mean why not? FFG just set the example for us hehe.

Also, I think you are making some assumptions on how a Dengaroo player would approach this list. Id definately be game for testing it out.

Or we can just rename the tournament as Assault Gunboat League!

Honestly, the Gunboats are not priced wrong. It's the Manglers that are OP (now they just found their natural habitat).

If the ship is priced to the statline if you're incapable of mounting any upgrades on it's upgrade slots, it's not priced properly. Mangler was an upgrade before the Gunboat was. It's your fault you didn't add opportunity cost to avoid this, not Mangler.

Yah, mangler's have been around for a long time now and not been OP previously, just gotta account for possible upgrades when pricing a ship (see contracted scouts + deadeye)

See i'm f*****. Cause i won my match. Time to go build an anti-gunboat list... Can't wait to play the new "most boring list to fight in the game" list.

You assume I'll be playing gunboats again . I only used 3 in my list, not the five...but please do build assuming I will play them ;p.

In all seriousness, yeah they might be a tad OP... its a casual tourny, be a bit more forgiving imo. Or, we could errata them before any more games are played... I mean why not? FFG just set the example for us hehe.

Also, I think you are making some assumptions on how a Dengaroo player would approach this list. Id definately be game for testing it out.

Or we can just rename the tournament as Assault Gunboat League!

Honestly, the Gunboats are not priced wrong. It's the Manglers that are OP (now they just found their natural habitat).

If the ship is priced to the statline if you're incapable of mounting any upgrades on it's upgrade slots, it's not priced properly. Mangler was an upgrade before the Gunboat was. It's your fault you didn't add opportunity cost to avoid this, not Mangler.

The problem is the Mangler. Put any other cannon and tell me the ship is OP.

But yes, we need to take everything in consideration. I will probably raise the ship's price later by 1 point (maybe adding the system upgrade to compensate?).

This is out in the interwebs. 99% certainly fake, but dat 1%...

This is out in the interwebs. 99% certainly fake, but dat 1%...

Interesting. Could be fake, of course... but I suppose it could be real. Although the address not working and the use of the 'mysterious' swx_58 code instead of a more reasonable code that could be associated with a wave 11 release (I doubt the gunboat is going to come as a standalone expansion if it ever comes)... makes this very suspect. Probably just a nice photoshop job.

This is out in the interwebs. 99% certainly fake, but dat 1%...

Interesting. Could be fake, of course... but I suppose it could be real. Although the address not working and the use of the 'mysterious' swx_58 code instead of a more reasonable code that could be associated with a wave 11 release (I doubt the gunboat is going to come as a standalone expansion if it ever comes)... makes this very suspect. Probably just a nice photoshop job.

It doesn't have the secondary wings, which is intriguing!

Its a balsy choice for a faker to make... but the original source of the image (rodent mastermind) was asking for a critique of the colors in the gunboat thread, which to me implies he was involved.

So, that image proved to be fake.... good, it wouldn't be a "Starwing" with 3 wings.

Anyway, how are the Gunboats doing? Still OP now people know how to fight them? (I lost 2 of my 3 matches with them)

Round 4 incoming?

Round 4 incoming?

Soon; we're waiting on my match with Meade (who is super sick at the moment)

rnd 3 & 4- A list I was really pleased with coming up with. I call it "Ultra Alpha". It is 3 Black Sun Aces w/ Custom Job, Concealed Warheads, LRS, Guidance Chips, Extra Munitions, Crack Shot and Homing missiles. With all that, there is just enough room for a bandit as well. It worked extremely well in both of my games.