Hello folks! The amazing work by Razgriz25thinf has inspired me to get off my own duff and set down some of the card ideas that have been kicking around in my brain for a while. When they did A-Wings the other day, I called dibs on B-Wings. They gave me some pointers for how to get started, and here we are. So:

It may seem strange that anyone would try to fix the B-Wing. They are, after all, a ship that has consistently been in top tier lists. However, those lists tend to feature lower PS pilots. Despite being the Swiss Army Knife of the Rebellion, B-Wings frequently do not make use of the upgrade slots they have available. There are a bunch of great pilots, but they lack that little bit of oomph for those great pilots to see play. So. I've created an expansion that has 1 new pilot, 3 new titles- 2 of which were specifically designed for aces- a new crew member, a couple cool ideas for Nera Dantels, and... one idea that's a bit bananas. Shall we?

(Art from:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/A/SF-01_B-wing_starfighter/Legends)

Notes:

This is a very simple card. Cause damage, get a reinforce token. The idea behind this title is to create extra survivability for higher PS ships. They attack first, and are thus more likely to get a the reinforce token when it is needed. Ten Numb with VI and a Mango cannon should be an ace hunter extraordinaire! Instead he very rarely sees play. This title would help him stick around long enough to do some real damage.

This title is zero points because every B-Wing Ace is overpriced. All of them. Since the only ships that are going to expect to see value from this title are PS7 and higher, I think knocking the price down to zero seems fair.

(Art from:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/A/SF-01_B-wing_starfighter)

Notes: (There is a new version of this card, incorporating some feedback. The new version of the card is at the bottom of this post. The idea behind the card itself is still the same, however)

Like the Blade Wing title, Integrated Cannons will also tend to be used by higher PS ships, and for the same reason.

The difference is that it will tend to be built for Rebel Control lists, rather than pure Damage lists. I've always been a bit bothered by the fact that high PS ships give up a lot of their ability to do damage if they want to take Ion cannons or (especially) Tractor cannons. B-Wings no longer have to make that choice. In fact, the way I have worded it, if you're equipped with a Flechette cannon and manage to tag a stressed Soontir Fel, Soontir is taking a second stress token. We might actually start to see Flechette cannons... ever!

In theory, this offers a great deal of value and isn't costing points. However, the cost of the upgrade is basically the same cost as whatever cannon is added to the ship. In my mind, that seems like a very fair pricing. I could see it going up by (maybe) a point, however.

I would like to think that both higher PS focused titles will be viable, however, I have a strong feeling that one of them or the other will be the one that actually sees the most use. So be it.

(Art from:

http://www.starwars.com/databank/b-wing-fighter)

Notes:

Even the lower PS B-Wings have been pushed out of the meta over the past year. They're very nearly 100% efficient, but "very nearly" isn't quite good enough anymore. This upgrade makes lower PS ships a bit tankier. Not a whole lot, as they very rarely will have 2 green dice to roll, and it's dependent on having a token while they're defending, so lower PS ships won't be able to rely on any FCS shenanigans. This upgrade makes mitigation of a single point of damage a bit more reliable, but it doesn't guarantee it at all.

(Art from:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Roos_Tarpals)

Notes: (There is a new version of this card, incorporating some feedback. The new version of the card is at the bottom of this post. The idea behind the card itself is still the same, however.)

B-Wings ought to be the premier heavy attack craft for the Rebellion. The fact that they are not has always bothered me.

Part of the problem is that the lower PS ships lack the action economy to get both a target lock and focus on the attacking turn. This crew member helps alleviate that concern by giving a free target lock token (even when the pilot is stressed).

In order to equip any crew members, a B-Wing must give up its mod slot- and thus cannot use Guidance Chip. That card is instrumental in allowing munitions to hit hard, and so I wanted to give some of the effect back to B-Wings. I didn't want to make the card strictly better, however, and so it goes from blank to eyeball.

I think this card should probably be about 3 points total, instead of 4 points for the Crew + B-Wing E/2 mod. In the next set of edits, I think I'll change that.

I've got the card set for "B-Wings only" right now, because I haven't sat down and really thought about what this crew might do for- say- the Falcon as flown by Lando. And maybe it would be OP on Super Dash. I'm not sure yet, so I wanted to restrict it until I could get some quality brainstorming taken care of. What do you think?

Note, too, that secondary weapons are still considered "equipped" even after they are "discarded". This means that an Alpha strike list will still have a bit of action efficiency to it even after it fires off its munitions. Since B-Wings are heavy fighters, I thought this would help a great deal.

(Art from:

the default one for Strange Eons X-Wing package. It just seems to fit really well, and I'm lazy.)

Notes:

Why not?

I like the idea that B-Wings can equip whatever they need to given the situation. Y-Wings get bombs, so B-Wings get missiles. Seems like a fun idea. Plus, you have that other torpedo slot left over for Extra munitions. It also allows a B-Wing to take Long Range Scanners, something I don't hate at all.

Extra text to make it usable for Nera Dantels, for whom this card was basically designed. I love the idea of her with Advanced Homing Missiles creating a Range 2 Bubble of Doom.

(Art from:

http://www.starwars.com/databank/hera-syndulla)

Notes: It's Hera. Obviously she was gonna end up in her Blade wing. Duh.

She's the same basic cost as Keyan Farlander, and I like that their abilities are both very different, but make use of the B-Wing in interesting ways.

Hera with Stay on Target could make basically any maneuver on her dial- making her incredibly unpredictable, and nearly impossible to block. Doing so means that she would have to move at PS7, however, which would allow opposing aces to move around her.

(Art gleefully stolen from:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/197945-guidance-chimps-new-cross-section-released/)

Notes: This is an idea I've had kicking around in my head for quite a while. How long? At one point in Wave 2 or 3, I built a card like similar to this for Z-95s. I called it "Wraith Squadron".

The idea is that Blue Squad or Dagger Squad are composed of whoever is in the crew compartment. So Ezra or Gunner or whoever are the ones flying the B-Wing.

I'm not sure this idea can ever be made 100% practical- I think a "fair" price for some combinations would be OP for others, and that a "fair" price for the later would make the former nonviable.

I do, however, love the concept and wanted to share it with you folks. So I have used a whimsical name and picture.

If anyone can come up with a good price for this generally, please let me know! I'm eager to see this work.

Update:

I'll be posting this update in both original post of this thread and in it's own separate comment.

Notes: (There is a new version of this card, incorporating some feedback. The new version of the card is at the bottom of this post. The idea behind the card itself is still the same, however)

Target finder now costs a point less, making him 3 points to equip on a B-Wing. He still has the restriction to the B-Wing until we look closely at weather he's broken on non-B-Wings. He's currently designed to be a munitions-enabling card that also lets you keep some punch after you drop a pair of torpedoes or missiles. That's how I'd like to keep him.

Integrated Cannons now costs 2 points instead of zero. Or, differently, 3-5 points instead of 1-3 points, depending on what cannon you take with it. Also, there was some confusion regarding what the card itself did, so I cleaned that up a bit. I hope it's more clear now.

UPDATE 2:

I'll be posting this update in both original post of this thread and in it's own separate comment.

I've changed the Target Finder card slightly, as well as added a new System card

Notes:

This update comes from a conversation I had with a friend, who pointed out that the second card made PS kind of irrelevant. With this revision, you will be able to get a Target Lock for free, and beyond Range 3. but you're a) telegraphing your intentions and b) vulnerable to things like the Black One title and Expert Handling. Not to mention plain old arc dodging.

Image from:

http://poorgreypilot.blogspot.com/2015/07/do-barrel-roll-discussing-idea-of-x.html

Notes:

The basic idea behind this card was to give a small advantage to mid PS ships that would otherwise be edged out by their lower costing, lower PS siblings.

I actually have high hopes for this on the TIE S/F, though it might be a bit OP on higher PS ships generally. I may have to restrict this card to ships below PS 8.

Where's the alt-art for the Mango Cannon (I forgot that was a thing a long time ago....). In the future if I run a Mango Cannon I will bring a mango with hit stamps all over it and roll it instead of one die.

You have a Gungan on one of your cards.

Shame.

Titles:

Blade Wing: I like it. Simple, it works, B-Wings need it, and it rewards powerful or auto-hit attacks that B-Wings are kind of known for. Good title.

Integrated Cannons: Hmm... See, i dunno, right? I feel like the only super useful thing you're getting is the reinforce token. What i personally would do, is completely remove the reinforce part, and change the wording to "you may also apply the on-hit effects of an equipped cannon." The biggest problem with equipped cannons other than mangler and HLC is that they do very little damage. I say give B-Wings the opportunity to do damage, AND be premier control craft, kind of like Defenders, but with any cannon and it's all in one attack(meaning that you dont have to spread modifiers, so it's kind of way better).

Pride of Shantipole:

Seems good. Probably very good for defense, even better if you made a card with an ability that lets you use target locks defensively. Can't complain too much, to be honest.

Chimp makes me happy. Very happy.

Integrated Cannons: Hmm... See, i dunno, right? I feel like the only super useful thing you're getting is the reinforce token. What i personally would do, is completely remove the reinforce part, and change the wording to "you may also apply the on-hit effects of an equipped cannon." The biggest problem with equipped cannons other than mangler and HLC is that they do very little damage. I say give B-Wings the opportunity to do damage, AND be premier control craft, kind of like Defenders, but with any cannon and it's all in one attack(meaning that you dont have to spread modifiers, so it's kind of way better).

Thats...pretty much exactly what it's doing by my reading. You attack with your primary, then apply any secondary effects from an equipped cannon or torpedo (the on-hit stress/ion/tractor token) if you hit. I agree it should lose the reinforce part. Or cost more points. Maybe both. For 1 point currently you gain the ability to tractor anything you hit + a reinforce token when you hit. For reference, the Shadowcaster title to add a tractor token on hit without a reinforce token costs 3 points.

Also, literally the only reason I can see to take the blade wing title over the integrated cannons currently is if you want to get a reinforce token from missiles or an HLC. Otherwise, you're better off getting the free effects from firing your primary weapon and STILL get the same reinforce token that blade wing gives on any attack.

Integrated Cannons: Hmm... See, i dunno, right? I feel like the only super useful thing you're getting is the reinforce token. What i personally would do, is completely remove the reinforce part, and change the wording to "you may also apply the on-hit effects of an equipped cannon." The biggest problem with equipped cannons other than mangler and HLC is that they do very little damage. I say give B-Wings the opportunity to do damage, AND be premier control craft, kind of like Defenders, but with any cannon and it's all in one attack(meaning that you dont have to spread modifiers, so it's kind of way better).

Thats...pretty much exactly what it's doing by my reading. You attack with your primary, then apply any secondary effects from an equipped cannon or torpedo (the on-hit stress/ion/tractor token) if you hit. I agree it should lose the reinforce part. Or cost more points. Maybe both. For 1 point currently you gain the ability to tractor anything you hit + a reinforce token when you hit. For reference, the Shadowcaster title to add a tractor token on hit without a reinforce token costs 3 points.

Well, it wasn't clear to me, so a wording change might be in order regardless.

Crew:

With Target Finder, ultimately the problem i see is it being used for cannons more than torps or missiles, because cannons are way more cost-effective in the long run. I mean, if you WANTED to use torps or missiles, you'd have to use this, but why do that when you can just take a mangler for the same points as a proton torp? You won't get the blank to focus, but who cares? You're getting a target lock.

I personally recommend you either only allow the first effect to apply to torps or missiles, OR you work in a restriction of cannons above 3 points, then rename the card to Weapons System Officer(and get rid of that nasty gungan).

As for everything else, Hera and Flexible Loadout have no immediate flaws, so they should be ok.

Crew:

With Target Finder, ultimately the problem i see is it being used for cannons more than torps or missiles, because cannons are way more cost-effective in the long run. I mean, if you WANTED to use torps or missiles, you'd have to use this, but why do that when you can just take a mangler for the same points as a proton torp? You won't get the blank to focus, but who cares? You're getting a target lock.

Oops! Um. I may have neglected something...

Update:

I'll be posting this update in both original post of this thread and in it's own separate comment.

Target finder now costs a point less, making him 3 points to equip on a B-Wing. He still has the restriction to the B-Wing until we look closely at whether he's broken on non-B-Wings. He's currently designed to be a munitions-enabling card that also lets you keep some punch after you drop a pair of torpedoes or missiles. That's how I'd like to keep him.

Integrated Cannons now costs 2 points instead of zero. Or, differently, 3-5 points instead of 1-3 points, depending on what cannon you take with it. Also, there was some confusion regarding what the card itself did, so I cleaned that up a bit. I hope it's more clear now.

Could still abuse the target finder by equipping a torpedo but just never firing it. I'd still get a free target lock every turn which might be worth the cost invested, especially when I fire that torpedo late in the game when there's a good moment. Up until then I get a free target locks every turn for my HLC. Is that intended?

I'm not sure if the integrated cannons would not be easier if they just worked like the TIE/D Title for the defender, basically attack again with secondary cannon <= 3 pts after doing a primary attack. It's not entirely the same but comes close and way easier to word.

Not entirely sure what Guidance Chimps do, basically they get me a 2pts discount on a crewmember (because the Crew slot costs 1) in return for my torpedo slots but only for unnamed pilots? Is that it? Not sure crew members are worth it on generics, maybe with the exception of gunner? But not entirely sure about this card.

And as already stated, the Blade Wing title overlaps too much with the integrated cannons title I think, except for HLC attacks, I'd get the same reinforce token from integrated cannons and on top of that I still get the free on hit effect compared to blade wing title.

Integrated Cannons would be better phrased as: when an equipped [cannon] instructs you to cancel all dice, do not do so.

Same effect, but much less wordy. Means you can't get the range 1 bonus on your primary and still use the hit effect of your cannon, but that's a trade-off of the clearer wording.

E: and yeah, chucking on Target Finder and a Flechette Torpedo would be well worth the 5 points for Vessery-level rerolls.

Not bad, but again, I would like the generics to gain something from the "blade wing" title.
Maybe something like :

Reinforced deflectors - Bwing only - title - 0pts
Add the Reinforce action to your action bar.

Now B-wings can choose to be defensive, high PS or not. And With FCS, you still get a decent chance to follow up with some serious damage if you play well, at a correct cost for generics ships.


I really like the integrated canon, but it should be a choice and loose the reinforce token. Thus you have to choose between reinforce and canon effect.

Yeah, giving B wings (and a few of the other low-agility ships that are supposed to be tanky but just explode) Reinforce would be a great way to make them more tanky whilst keeping up the idea that they're relatively lightweight fighters with really beefy shields.

ANd the Upsilon shows they're willing to put Epic actions on reguar ships.

Can I suggest a one-use discard cannon, or a title, for Quarrie's Prototype? Because mini-deathstar!

I would go at it a bit different

Blade Wing: After performing a barrel roll you may assign an evade token to this ship

0 pts

Integrated cannons: Must equip a cannon upgrade - after performing a primary attack that hits deal an additional hit and apply any additional effects from the equipped cannon

2 pts

Pride of Shantipole: Unique - must equip HLC - takes both torp slots - primary attack value is 7, after performing an attack assign a weapons disabled token at the beginning of the next round

4 pts

Holy @#$ ! Those cards make the B-wing rather Over Powered. I'd.....really rather not see those added to the game.

Wouldn't adding the "on hit effects of an equipped cannon" include the "deal one damage" portion of the ion and flechette cannons? I'm not saying it's necessarily bad, and if that was the intent I would agree with the two point cost. If the intent was to simply assign the coresponding token, I think it shouldn't cost any points. Or only 1 at the most.

I'm seeing a lot of the same feedback from a few people, so I'll just quote reply one person and hope I got a bunch of it. I'm really liking this feedback!

Could still abuse the target finder by equipping a torpedo but just never firing it. I'd still get a free target lock every turn which might be worth the cost invested, especially when I fire that torpedo late in the game when there's a good moment. Up until then I get a free target locks every turn for my HLC. Is that intended?

I'm not sure if the integrated cannons would not be easier if they just worked like the TIE/D Title for the defender, basically attack again with secondary cannon <= 3 pts after doing a primary attack. It's not entirely the same but comes close and way easier to word.

I think at this point, the confusion over how Integrated Cannons works is cleared up? I think the question is now pricing.

Right now, high PS B-Wings are simply too fragile to field at all. That's why the Blade wing and integrated are so similar- they are designed to increase defense in the same way. The difference between them is how you actually achieve getting a hit.

In my mind, it's _really_ hard to hit a tokened up Soontir with your first volley from a 3 die primary. I don't think it's worth many points to take a gamble that will be disastrous if it fails.

Maybe, though, I'm wrong in thinking people would use these titles primarily on ships that are already over priced (which High PS B-Wings are). Maybe people would take them on Blue Squadron and use them primarily as offensive tools? If that's the case, I'll have to rethink.

Not entirely sure what Guidance Chimps do, basically they get me a 2pts discount on a crewmember (because the Crew slot costs 1) in return for my torpedo slots but only for unnamed pilots? Is that it? Not sure crew members are worth it on generics, maybe with the exception of gunner? But not entirely sure about this card.

Not bad, but again, I would like the generics to gain something from the "blade wing" title.

Maybe something like :

Reinforced deflectors - Bwing only - title - 0pts

Add the Reinforce action to your action bar.

Now B-wings can choose to be defensive, high PS or not. And With FCS, you still get a decent chance to follow up with some serious damage if you play well, at a correct cost for generics ships

The other thing is that low PS B-Wings are basically already ok. They are nearly 100% efficient, and just need a small bump to bring them in line. That's why the Pride of Shantipol title exists. It's meant to give low PS B-Wings a tiny little defensive bump.

The reason the title lets you get rerolls on either of 2 tokens is so you're not limited to a really boring "always focus" or "always target lock" option. It's better, I think, for lower PS ships because once they spend tokens on offense, they would be losing out on their defense as well.

The other way I've thought about helping B-Wings defensively:

"At the start of the Combat Phase, you may assign yourself a Reinforce Token. If you do, reduce your agility by 1". I think I'd almost have preferred the B-Wing to have shipped this way, to be honest.

Can I suggest a one-use discard cannon, or a title, for Quarrie's Prototype? Because mini-deathstar!

Oh yes! I've got an idea for a "big red lever" card. Gotta figure it out still. Every idea I come up with- even the ballanced ones- are unfun to play against, though. Like. That gun was stupid OP even in the show. Fun, but stupid OP...

Wouldn't adding the "on hit effects of an equipped cannon" include the "deal one damage" portion of the ion and flechette cannons? I'm not saying it's necessarily bad, and if that was the intent I would agree with the two point cost. If the intent was to simply assign the coresponding token, I think it shouldn't cost any points. Or only 1 at the most.

This forum's swear filters are so effective that I'm not even bothering to type out what I'm thinking for having missed that.

I'll have to give it a nice, solid think.

I'm glad that there's at least one person who agrees with me that the token itself isn't worth a billion points, however!

I like the idea, but in practice, it means that B-Wings would be taking basically the same action every turn. The opportunity cost simply becomes too high. You'd probably also start to see them make a lot fewer red moves.

The other thing is that low PS B-Wings are basically already ok. They are nearly 100% efficient, and just need a small bump to bring them in line. That's why the Pride of Shantipol title exists. It's meant to give low PS B-Wings a tiny little defensive bump.

Yes, but to often, they already do focus every turn, especially if you have FCS. At lox PS, barrel roll isn't really useful for them. As for red moves, maybe you can expect to see more Advanced sensors.

But I think you are right, the Blues only need a slight boost, maybe giving them Reinforce is too much.

On the other hand, the Daggers could use something more (like an EpT, like most of the non-rebel mid-PS generics...).

Holy @#$ ! Those cards make the B-wing rather Over Powered. I'd.....really rather not see those added to the game.

Thank you very much for this useful feedback. I'll be sure to consider your suggestion when next I iterate on this design.

On the other hand, the Daggers could use something more (like an EpT, like most of the non-rebel mid-PS generics...).

An EPT would help quite a bit. I don't just want to hand one over, as I think that steps on the toes of a few other designs (A-Wing test pilot). Nor do I want to create a PS 5 generic with an EPT- that would just make Daggers obsolete.

The trick is to find a role that a PS4 non-EPT B-Wing can fill better than a PS2 non-EPT B-Wing can, using the current toolset.

I _think_ I've made it possible for them to be good missile or Torpedo ships. And I _think_ them being able to fire off missile at PS4 is a significant enough advantage to doing so at PS2 that it might be worth 2 points.

I'm not 100% sure on that, though. Other than an EPT, what do you think they need?