It's been up a day, and nobody's commented on the latest, um, 'article' yet?

(I guess it's technically an AOR article huh, but all the other forums are kinda clogged up with the 'Let's Plays' and this one is clogged up the least. I'm glad you guys can do it, don't get me wrong, but I wish they had their own forum, because it really is cluttering up the main ones )

My first thought was that it's yet another article basically pushing the cartoons, like the last two. Disney really seems to have its foot on the throat of this game now - I can't recall the last EU species we got, and I don't think it's a coincidence that the two new career books have canon characters on the front, when previously they were only on the core books. Maybe that's inevitable, but I always thought that the game's focus on the originals was a good thing, something that actually united SW fans rather than divided them. But hey, I'm getting old.

I actually wanted to like this one, because I'm sure there's a good article somewhere on making interesting antagonists, especially ones who plot and plan and stay far away from the PCs instead of just charging at them with a vibroknife. And I guess Thrawn being 'canon' is likely a big deal for some, as he was a big player in the early EU. I actually enjoyed the Zahn stories back in the day, and I've liked very few SW books. Thrawn felt new and different, as did the Chiss - here was an Imperial who wasn't stupid or being bad just 'for the evulz'. He actually felt motivated and realistic for the most part. It was a good twist on a bunch of antagonists who by then had become very stale.

But some people disliked the fact that Thrawn could seem a bit of an 'author's pet' - too perfect and seemingly invincible. A villain who 'knows everything' is kind of twee and unrealistic, and it's bad enough in a story. In an RPG, it's borderline unforgivable. And that's the trap Young seems to fall into here. We've all seen GMs who fall in love with their antagonists, who make them unbeatable and impossible to defeat, no matter what the PCs do. If a villain simply has arbitrary plot armour, players will just stop caring. A villain who keeps his distance, keeps lots of goons between him and his enemies, and has one eye on an escape route all the time, can be a good foe for the PCs. But there has to be the possibility of the PCs outsmarting him (and maybe shanking him repeatedly in the face with a rusty combat knife. Not so clever are you now, matey?) A genuine cat-and-mouse game between the PCs and an enemy can be a great thing, and is in fact the basis of many books and movies. But Young just seems to want to write a story, with the PCs as victims or passive observers to his villain's cleverness.

Now, it may well be that he's writing this tongue-in-cheek, as the FFG work-experience-kid seems to suggest at the end, not entirely convincingly. But it still feels like a missed opportunity to me. I'm sure there's at least a dozen of us here who could write a decent article about villains/antagonists, and how to incorporate them in a game like this, which isn't competitive and is in fact more like a mutual story-telling game. Young is just saying - possibly playfully, possibly serious - to make villains omniscient and put players into no-win situations, which doesn't actually make for a fun game for anyone.

So I've talked at length, not about this article, but about the article I want to see. And this is what brought me to the Forums if I'm honest, and why I'm around less these days. It's been a while since we've had a decent article worthy of the name, rather than 'watch moar cartoons!' or 'buy moar minis!' The game release schedule has slowed down a bit, so there's less actual new content for us to discuss. I guess what I'd like to see are opinions from people I respect and could learn from (you know who you are!) as I did when I came here 2-3 years ago. How do YOU use the canon characters? How are YOUR games set up? How do the PCs change things? What are YOUR best villains, and how did you run them in your campaigns or make them memorable? In the absence of anything else, and 'articles' like this one, I feel the forums could be more than they currently are. Maybe.

I guess things could be worse. Please nobody tell Brian Young about 'Star Wars Destiny', their new crack cocaine substitute 'collectible pay-to-win card and dice game'. If he figured we could incorporate that into the RPG as he tried (and failed) with X-Wing, then we'd be looking at 'rare' species and specs and gear and ships from now until doomsday.

"I tell you, it's a great idea! These RPG fans are as thirsty as all hell! There's this weird middle-aged woman on the forums who'd easily pay hundreds of dollars for Zeltrons and Miraluka!'

Personally, I tend not to use many canon characters. Not because I don't like them, but because the protagonists are pretty well established as busy elsewhere, while there's also a great big galaxy of antagonists out there that are fair game to be killed off if that were to happen.

As for villains, I like to stack 'em up, and they run across a spectrum. Currently, they range from middling crime bosses with grudges against one or more characters, to an entire church/government that controls its own fairly significant area of the galaxy, and is just waiting to pounce on the weakened victor of the GCW. Some of the villains, they've encountered, some are on standby. And some they've encountered but don't know it yet.

Now, all of that said, some of those waiting in the wings do have ties to canon characters. Just because.

If it's not product news I don't read it.

If it's not product news I don't read it.

I know you're a playtester. Maybe you could write their articles? I'm serious.

Flattering M, but I don't think I am exactly politically correct enough for the corporate world, my typical prose would be heavily abridged I'm sure .....I'm probably not politically correct enough for Hyboria actually.....

Hmm hmm...well, the game I run is a straight Canon game, so that gives me little space to maneuver with canon characters. Usually I use them as back-drop, show the PCs some of the big things going on in the Galaxy, so that they can feel connected to the story we all know.

That, of course, brings us to the big issue of player agency. If Luke HAS to be the one to blow up the Death Star, what can the PCs do to feel accomplished? The answer I like (I haven't used it in my Star Wars game yet, but I have in an old Avatar: The Last Airbender" game I ran), is that the PCs set up the board for the heroes from the films to knock the pieces down. Sure, Luke may have blown up the Death Star, but if it wasn't for the PC Mechanic who inserted the fatal flaw into the original designs during construction, that exhaust port would never have been there, would it?

Sure, Lando Calrissian may have destroyed Death Star 2: Electric Bugaloo, but how did the Rebellion even know it was at Endor? A bunch of Bothans and that group of intrepid PCs heard rumors and went a-lookin'!

Of course, those concerns fly out the window once you accept a looser relationship to canon. Or better yet, toss canon out the window and remix and rematch to make it your own!

To the question on making villains effective...I'd had dubious success here. Some of my best villains were in D&D/Pathfinder games, but that's mostly because that's been the system that my group has played the most, and those kinds of villains have very different sets of tools available to them than a Star Wars villain does. But that in itself it the best way to craft a good villain: firmly establish what tools they have available to them, make sure those tools are effective but have blind spots, and then force the players to work to figure out where those limits are.

Villains with arbitrarily defined influence are very hard to make believable or satisfying, because they stymy you at every turn, and you can't beat them until the GM says you can. Villains with a defined influence (even if it's very extensive) can be defeated by the action of the PCs directly. It's their skill, ingenuity, and process that determines when they've uncovered enough to overthrow the evil overlord, not the GM saying that they're now high enough level, time to fight the boss monster!

Now, given, a good GM should try to balance things so the PCs encounter the final villain at the right moment, when they're prepared and have a chance to win, but that's very different than scripting it.

Okay, those are my initial thoughts - more to come at a later point!

Yeah, I have to agree that the way the article presents Thrawn, he seems to be quite the Gary Stu (or is there another name for when a Mary Sue is the villain?). Which, I suppose he may have been a little bit in the novels, but then the author had the decency to kill him.

Let's face it, players are not big fans of villains who anticipate their every move. They're not like movie or TV heroes, saying, "Curse that Professor Chaos! How does he anticipate our every move?!" They say, "Oh, the GM is being obnoxious again. What BS excuse are you gonna give for why this guy knew all the details of our plans, which we had to tell you, the GM?"

"Oh! Well he studied your art, and deduced a great deal of your psychology..."

"Really? So he knew we were going to use a screen formation with our Y-wings because he paid attention in Art History 101? Did the Dadaist Movement clue him in to that bit of strategy?"

As for Canon characters, I don't use them much. There's a slight chance I'll use Vader at some point, but sparingly. I think it's hard to plan an awesome villain. You just have to introduce a few villains and see what sticks. come up with a reason that they'll be remembered, but don't get too deep. For my F&D game I stole "Ironarm" from the GM kit, and made him the former commanding officer for the Ex-imperial character. I'm sure they'll meet again, and if it comes down to a fight, the dude will have a hidden vibrosword in his cyber arm. Boom, that's enough. If he gets killed right away, big deal. There's like two things about him. If he survives and comes back on his own, he just made himself awesome, I didn't have much to do with it.

Flattering M, but I don't think I am exactly politically correct enough for the corporate world, my typical prose would be heavily abridged I'm sure .....I'm probably not politically correct enough for Hyboria actually.....

Ah, I'm a grown-up who's used to playing with guys. Little bothers me anymore.

And I'd actually like to read an opinion with a bit of an edge, something that hadn't been wrung through a corporate-speak filter.

You, Desslok, Donovan, Absol, Kyla, Dante, Kael (those just off the top of my head) would all write articles I'd enjoy reading. I many not always agree with all you guys but that's kind of the point; to make you think and provoke some thoughts.

Once again, a useless article from Bryan Young. It might have been titled "How to make sure nobody shows up at your games".

The SW galaxy is too big and interesting to bother with canon characters IMHO. They might provide inspiration but that's about it.

As for how the players affect the game: no-way and every-way That's pretty useless, but what I mean is: the PCs might be masters of their little corner of the galaxy, but there are always large forces at work that have their own inertia. The PCs can change a lot within their own sphere of influence, but usually can't do too much about the big trends. (Side note, I've always preferred a more "down to earth" campaign, where the heroes are the unsung people in the background.)

Eg: my own campaign is a fairly simple "the Empire is taking over your planet" plot. My plans for the end game will come down to the players having the means and ability to choose either to lock their planet away from Imperial threat and the galaxy at large for the foreseeable future (with all the local social and political fallout), or waging a mutually destructive guerrilla war in the hopes the Empire is someday distracted by some larger events. The inertia of that plot thread is extremely heavy and hard to divert (though nothing is 100%).

On the other hand, I had great plans for an undercover Imperial agent, and recently the players pulled a rare murder-hobo stunt and just blew him away. The fun part is imagining the ripple effect of that action on the larger plot, and all the other villains and allies the PCs might have. It definitely changes things and makes me scrabble.

As for memorable villains, I'm more in Grand Falloon's camp: try for something unique, and see what happens. Sometimes the most mundane adversaries get the limelight because I just happened to think of something witty for them to say, or the players treat them in an unexpected manner that leads to memorable moments. That said, I also try not to center too much of the story around a single villain. As for the PCs, I find the unsung villains in the background more interesting than trying to replicate what's already been done. There's a lot more room to role-play a nefarious customs agent than Darth Vader.

Absol, we seem to think similarly about how to stick with canon, but still allow the players big victories.

I've gone about it two ways in the past (in the same campaign).

One way was using that same church/government that I've shamelessly reused in my current campaign. Although it never reached that point in the previous campaign, it allowed for the players to potentially be the ones to bring down an evil, power-hungry organizastion.

The other was less about setting the pins up for the movie characters to knock down, but (to mix metaphors), preventing the Empire from being able to use other big hammers not seen in the movies from being used against Luke and company. For example, trying to figure out a big threat that could be a big victory for my players, my eyes fell to my original Battlestar Galactica Cylon Base Star model, and scaled it to a nearby MicroMachines Star Destroyer. Voila! The Starbreaker battle platform was born. As the story went, it was designed as a smaller-scale supplemental vehicle to the Death Star, its 10 "powerlasers" intended to be the capital ship equivalent of the Death Star's superlaser (until the DS II, of course). They destroyed one or two of the five Starbreakers that I'd established as having been built.

>Or better yet, toss canon out the window and remix and rematch to make it your own!

I resemble that remark

But some nice thoughts there, Phee. The kind of stuff I wish we'd seen in the article. Actual tips on making the game better, rather than just fanboying on the new canon character.

Once again, a useless article from Bryan Young. It might have been titled "How to make sure nobody shows up at your games".

Harsh, but fair. I was trying to be charitable, in assuming that it was written tongue-in-cheek. If it wasn't, then it was a truly dreadful piece.

You know there's something wrong when an FFG guy pops in at the end to chuckle unconvincingly, 'Ha ha ha, just kidding, folks! Right?'

If it's not product news I don't read it.

^ This.

Companies gotta sell their products, and when your IP is as big as this one, there's bound to be cross-marketing. But as The Pirate says, I'm here for the game. Star Wars itself is a big tent and I try not to think of the RPG as speaking for the whole universe. I don't disagree that the latest books have been heavy on the tie-ins, but the game itself is still incredibly fun and as long as they continue to make game/gameplay/system improvements, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and homebrew what's missing.

Speaking only for myself, though:

I kill canon with a merciless fury. Literally. My opening act in establishing my current campaign's alternate universe (set 15 years after Yavin IV) was to kill Luke and Vader, make Han Solo a useless alcoholic, and Leia an irredeemable terrorist. I'm practically DARING my PCs to go looking for other canon characters, just to see how badly I can mangle their expectations.

You, Desslok, Donovan, Absol, Kyla, Dante, Kael (those just off the top of my head) would all write articles I'd enjoy reading. I many not always agree with all you guys but that's kind of the point; to make you think and provoke some thoughts.

I'd read that newsletter.

Weren't 3 out 4 species in the last book EU species?!?!?

I resemble that remark

But some nice thoughts there, Phee. The kind of stuff I wish we'd seen in the article. Actual tips on making the game better, rather than just fanboying on the new canon character.

Now, did they do it effectively? Not really, to my mind. But let's not be composing apples to oranges, here! It's not fair!

If it's not product news I don't read it.

^ This.

Companies gotta sell their products, and when your IP is as big as this one, there's bound to be cross-marketing. But as The Pirate says, I'm here for the game. Star Wars itself is a big tent and I try not to think of the RPG as speaking for the whole universe. I don't disagree that the latest books have been heavy on the tie-ins, but the game itself is still incredibly fun and as long as they continue to make game/gameplay/system improvements, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and homebrew what's missing.

Speaking only for myself, though:

I kill canon with a merciless fury. Literally. My opening act in establishing my current campaign's alternate universe (set 15 years after Yavin IV) was to kill Luke and Vader, make Han Solo a useless alcoholic, and Leia an irredeemable terrorist. I'm practically DARING my PCs to go looking for other canon characters, just to see how badly I can mangle their expectations.

You, Desslok, Donovan, Absol, Kyla, Dante, Kael (those just off the top of my head) would all write articles I'd enjoy reading. I many not always agree with all you guys but that's kind of the point; to make you think and provoke some thoughts.

I'd read that newsletter.

Once I get the site up and running (should be within the next week...have the domain, just clearing the hurdle of purging my old SW Galaxies player city domain from my web space so it points to the right place), I'd have someplace for that newsletter to live. If any of you were interested, that is.

I kill canon with a merciless fury. Literally. My opening act in establishing my current campaign's alternate universe (set 15 years after Yavin IV) was to kill Luke and Vader, make Han Solo a useless alcoholic, and Leia an irredeemable terrorist. I'm practically DARING my PCs to go looking for other canon characters, just to see how badly I can mangle their expectations.

I love you and want to have your babies.

The SW galaxy is too big and interesting to bother with canon characters IMHO. They might provide inspiration but that's about it.

My thinking exactly. Given the scope of a galactic war, even without pitched battles there would be so many moving parts why wouldn't someone want to strike out in a new direction? Things occur during these times that might have zero bearing on what is going on in the war itself. The business of colonization, commerce, exploration, all continue forward. Even a totalitarian regime has to grapple with crime. All manner of dastardly folk take advantage of times of strife, there very well could be scenarios where the Alliance and a regional imperial governor cooperate, at least in the short term, for a larger threat. Just another imperial baddy whose skin is blue, eyes are red, and we have already seen holds little appeal for me.

I kill canon with a merciless fury. Literally. My opening act in establishing my current campaign's alternate universe (set 15 years after Yavin IV) was to kill Luke and Vader, make Han Solo a useless alcoholic, and Leia an irredeemable terrorist. I'm practically DARING my PCs to go looking for other canon characters, just to see how badly I can mangle their expectations.

I love you and want to have your babies.

I accept your offer, but my wife is going to be PISSED.

The best way to think like Thrawn? Get Tim Zhan to write out your game.

No, seriously.

Many, many moons ago they had Tim at a local sci-fi convention as guest. I was only able to go up on Sunday - and if you've ever been to a convention, you know that Sundays are the dead zone. Especially a Sunday morning meet and greet with a guest that's been around all weekend.

And so the room consisted of Tim, the security guy (whom I knew) and. . . . me. I got my booked signed, and then just hung out and chatted for a while. Star Wars, the writing process, favorite movies, anything and everything. Occasionally someone would drop in, say hi and then vanish - but for the most part it was just us three shooting the ****.

And then I hit upon an idea. Our game was rapidly closing in on the era his books were set in, but the universe had some very major changes to the setting, thanks to our players. And so I straight out asked him "If you were not mandated by LFL that the good guys win and the bad guys lose, if Thrawn had a sane Dark Jedi at his disposal instead of C'boath, plus resource X, Y and Z - how would he have approached the war against the New Republic?"

And for the next half hour or so, we hashed out - in broad terms - the general story arc of my campaign. Ideas I hadn't thought of, ways to spin off player hooks - all sorts of good stuff! And when it was time to execute this masterplan, it was GLORIOUS! Months to plan, weeks of real time to play out - redemption, betrayal, meaningful character deaths and development and a siege of Courscant where the Empire very well would have won if the players had not stepped up their A Game and were very, very clever. I have never had a more epic ending to a game since.

I kill canon with a merciless fury. Literally. My opening act in establishing my current campaign's alternate universe (set 15 years after Yavin IV) was to kill Luke and Vader, make Han Solo a useless alcoholic, and Leia an irredeemable terrorist. I'm practically DARING my PCs to go looking for other canon characters, just to see how badly I can mangle their expectations.

I love you and want to have your babies.

Hey, I thought we were having tadpoles together!

I love you and want to have your babies.

But...but Marcy, what about the Gungwoks? Our Teepals, and little Wick-Wick Binks...

Hey, I thought we were having tadpoles together!

...I'm sensing a theme developing...

*tearfully sings You Give Love a Bad Name *

Whoa, there are a LOT of people here who want in on Maelora and I's spawnbrood.

But I'm a modern guy and am willing to establish a Cerean-like polygamy commune and we can all have big headed tadpole babies or something

Weren't 3 out 4 species in the last book EU species?!?!?

Nope. The Elom is a blink-and-you'll-miss-it background character at Jabba's court in Return of the Jedi. The Shistavanen is a Mos Eisley Cantina character. The Kyozo appears in the Clone Wars cartoon and Force Awakens. The Elomin is an EU species that's featured mainly in the Heir to the Empire Trilogy by Timothy Zahn, the creator of Admiral Thrawn.