I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with the devs on this one.

It does seem counterintuitive that you need 2 Force Points to get your Saber back no matter what.

It does seem counterintuitive that you need 2 Force Points to get your Saber back no matter what.

Nah, imho it fits very well, you throw the ding, your target dodges or your aim were off or whatever other reason and now your saber lies somewhere behind your target and leaving you exposed. Fits perfectly the theme. I don't see how you should not need to spend two force pips to get the saber back, afterall you are throwing the thing.

You don't count ammunition down only on hits either, right?

Now I do understand that. Initially my thought was more along the lines of

"I'm not controlling the flight well enough, better pull back before I loose my Saber"

Your explanation is much better though, especially when you think about it like a limited ammo weapon. I think the only question now is, what happens when you choose not to use any Force points? Does the Saber only go to Short range like a normal thrown weapon? Or still end up somewhere in Medium?

There's a lot going on in this one little talent

That's indeed an interesting question, I would actually say that you must spend a force pip. Darkside or light, you decided to leash out that way and use the talent after all.

And if you really want to throw the thing without the use of the force it becomes just an improvised throwing weapon … though most sabers would just deactivate without the force holding them. So you basically just throwing the hilt away

Now I do understand that. Initially my thought was more along the lines of

"I'm not controlling the flight well enough, better pull back before I loose my Saber"

Your explanation is much better though, especially when you think about it like a limited ammo weapon. I think the only question now is, what happens when you choose not to use any Force points? Does the Saber only go to Short range like a normal thrown weapon? Or still end up somewhere in Medium?

There's a lot going on in this one little talent

My read on the talent is that if you don't spend that initial Force point, then the attack fails completely no matter how your Lightsaber combat check turned out, much the same way that not generating any Force points while using Move to attack with a hurled object is a failed attack no matter how many successes you got on your Discipline check. Spending a Force point is part of the effect, and if you can't pay the entry fee, then you don't get to enter the club.

Can I request that you put a copy of this information into the “FFG Developer Answered Questions” thread at https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/108101-ffg-developer-answered-questions/ ?

Thanks!

Done.

Hey folks, it took a while but I got an answer back from Sam:

Hello Greg,

Yes.

Hope this helps!

Sam Stewart

RPG Manager

Fantasy Flight Games

On Sep 29, 2016, at 11:43 AM, [email protected] wrote:

Message from:

Greg

Rules Question:

Hello, When making a Saber Trow attack the RAW states: "Saber Throw: (pg 151 F&D) ... The character must spend (1 Force Point) and succeed on the check to hit the target..." Is the Player required to spend the Force point even if the attack roll fails? Thank you, Greg

Apparently once you commit to the Action you must spend the FP regardless of the outcome. So that would mean that if you only generate one LS point you must to spend it on the Attack even if it fails and would not be able to retrieve your sabre unless you had a second LS point or used a DS point.

So of course I just have to ask, what happens when you can't spend a FP, such as when there are no Light Side DPs available and all your FD came up dark?

So of course I just have to ask, what happens when you can't spend a FP, such as when there are no Light Side DPs available and all your FD came up dark?

You Fail and your Lightsabre is where you threw it. But I'd suggest flipping a DP and using the Dark Side point.

I think the intended options are:

1. Succeed & Spend 2 FP to Hit and catch Saber

2. Succeed & spend 1 FP to Hit but Saber is on the ground

3. Succeed & spend 0 FP to miss and Saber is on the ground

4. Fail & Spend 2 FP to miss but catch your Saber

5. Fail & Spend 1 FP to miss and Saber is on the ground

6. Fail & spend 0 FP to miss and Saber is on the ground

Notice there is no difference between 5 & 6, but 4 is the key to Sams answer. When you throw a Saber your going to need at least 2 FP to return it to your hand, no matter what.

So of course I just have to ask, what happens when you can't spend a FP, such as when there are no Light Side DPs available and all your FD came up dark?

You Fail and your Lightsabre is where you threw it. But I'd suggest flipping a DP and using the Dark Side point.

What happens if you have no Destiny Point to flip?I mean, is it like "You create a rupture in the Cosmic Force with your attempted over use of Destiny, rupturing the foundation of the universe. Everyone Dies."?,

Obviously, the answer is "Figure it out at your table and play on." Mostly point out the flaw in Sam's answer. I can't think of any other situation where you might be forced to use a Destiny Point (and accept some conflict) simply to activate an otherwise useless power.

So of course I just have to ask, what happens when you can't spend a FP, such as when there are no Light Side DPs available and all your FD came up dark?

You Fail and your Lightsabre is where you threw it. But I'd suggest flipping a DP and using the Dark Side point.

What happens if you have no Destiny Point to flip?I mean, is it like "You create a rupture in the Cosmic Force with your attempted over use of Destiny, rupturing the foundation of the universe. Everyone Dies."?,

Obviously, the answer is "Figure it out at your table and play on." Mostly point out the flaw in Sam's answer. I can't think of any other situation where you might be forced to use a Destiny Point (and accept some conflict) simply to activate an otherwise useless power.

I think Sams answer to that would be something along the lines of "the player knew before rolling that they had no Destiny Point to flip and therefore knew the risks of rolling Dark Side."

Richardbuxton's pretty much got it: it's an advanced ability and if you can't reliably get two FPs you may want to hold off on using it.

Richardbuxton's pretty much got it: it's an advanced ability and if you can't reliably get two FPs you may want to hold off on using it.

Or save it to use as a desperation tactic for when you really need to drop some major hurt on a bad guy.

After all, we see Vader use it to avoid a repeat of his Mustafar blunder (going after a foe who's got the high ground) rather being a go-to tactic for him. Even Yoda, who'd have an easy time generating the necessary 2 Force points didn't use saber throwing as a go-to tactic either. So for a PC with only 1 Force die, knowing when to use Saber Throw and when to just spend the Maneuvers to engage (or invest in Enhance to Force Leap if terrain's an issue) can be critical.

And remember, for checks like the one for Saber Throw, the entire pool is rolled at once (it's called a combined check, it appears you did this part right) - the combat check with your Lightsaber skill and your Force dice. So you can clearly see whether the attack succeeded or failed before choosing whether you want to go ahead and spend the pips to actually make the talent work.

Always keep this in mind. Spending your successes, advantage, triumphs and force points is entirely under your control as the player, the GM only gets to determine what is done with your failures, threats and despairs. If you make a saber throw attack but don't generate enough force points (or enough light side points, for that matter) to retrieve your lightsaber, you're well within your rights to not spend any force points at all and keep your weapon. This is a narrative system, if someone, even the GM is trying to use your positive dice to hurt or hinder your character they're not keeping faith with either the spirit or the intent of the system.

Also keep in mind that if your abortive attack did generate any threat or despair, the GM can still activate those. Spending a Despair on your pool is the appropriate time for the GM to make mishaps like "you drop your weapon despite your best efforts" occur, not when you're deciding how best to spend your positive dice results.

And remember, for checks like the one for Saber Throw, the entire pool is rolled at once (it's called a combined check, it appears you did this part right) - the combat check with your Lightsaber skill and your Force dice. So you can clearly see whether the attack succeeded or failed before choosing whether you want to go ahead and spend the pips to actually make the talent work.

Always keep this in mind. Spending your successes, advantage, triumphs and force points is entirely under your control as the player, the GM only gets to determine what is done with your failures, threats and despairs. If you make a saber throw attack but don't generate enough force points (or enough light side points, for that matter) to retrieve your lightsaber, you're well within your rights to not spend any force points at all and keep your weapon. This is a narrative system, if someone, even the GM is trying to use your positive dice to hurt or hinder your character they're not keeping faith with either the spirit or the intent of the system.

Also keep in mind that if your abortive attack did generate any threat or despair, the GM can still activate those. Spending a Despair on your pool is the appropriate time for the GM to make mishaps like "you drop your weapon despite your best efforts" occur, not when you're deciding how best to spend your positive dice results.

This is incorrect.

And remember, for checks like the one for Saber Throw, the entire pool is rolled at once (it's called a combined check, it appears you did this part right) - the combat check with your Lightsaber skill and your Force dice. So you can clearly see whether the attack succeeded or failed before choosing whether you want to go ahead and spend the pips to actually make the talent work.

Always keep this in mind. Spending your successes, advantage, triumphs and force points is entirely under your control as the player, the GM only gets to determine what is done with your failures, threats and despairs. If you make a saber throw attack but don't generate enough force points (or enough light side points, for that matter) to retrieve your lightsaber, you're well within your rights to not spend any force points at all and keep your weapon. This is a narrative system, if someone, even the GM is trying to use your positive dice to hurt or hinder your character they're not keeping faith with either the spirit or the intent of the system.

Also keep in mind that if your abortive attack did generate any threat or despair, the GM can still activate those. Spending a Despair on your pool is the appropriate time for the GM to make mishaps like "you drop your weapon despite your best efforts" occur, not when you're deciding how best to spend your positive dice results.

This is incorrect.

And it is literally the equivalent of wanting to shoot proton torpedos only when they hit and do damage to save ammunition.

And remember, for checks like the one for Saber Throw, the entire pool is rolled at once (it's called a combined check, it appears you did this part right) - the combat check with your Lightsaber skill and your Force dice. So you can clearly see whether the attack succeeded or failed before choosing whether you want to go ahead and spend the pips to actually make the talent work.

Always keep this in mind. Spending your successes, advantage, triumphs and force points is entirely under your control as the player, the GM only gets to determine what is done with your failures, threats and despairs. If you make a saber throw attack but don't generate enough force points (or enough light side points, for that matter) to retrieve your lightsaber, you're well within your rights to not spend any force points at all and keep your weapon. This is a narrative system, if someone, even the GM is trying to use your positive dice to hurt or hinder your character they're not keeping faith with either the spirit or the intent of the system.

Also keep in mind that if your abortive attack did generate any threat or despair, the GM can still activate those. Spending a Despair on your pool is the appropriate time for the GM to make mishaps like "you drop your weapon despite your best efforts" occur, not when you're deciding how best to spend your positive dice results.

This is incorrect.

A character may always choose to have any light or dark side results on the force dice not generate force points. If you're referring to something else, I'm all ears.

And remember, for checks like the one for Saber Throw, the entire pool is rolled at once (it's called a combined check, it appears you did this part right) - the combat check with your Lightsaber skill and your Force dice. So you can clearly see whether the attack succeeded or failed before choosing whether you want to go ahead and spend the pips to actually make the talent work.

Always keep this in mind. Spending your successes, advantage, triumphs and force points is entirely under your control as the player, the GM only gets to determine what is done with your failures, threats and despairs. If you make a saber throw attack but don't generate enough force points (or enough light side points, for that matter) to retrieve your lightsaber, you're well within your rights to not spend any force points at all and keep your weapon. This is a narrative system, if someone, even the GM is trying to use your positive dice to hurt or hinder your character they're not keeping faith with either the spirit or the intent of the system.

Also keep in mind that if your abortive attack did generate any threat or despair, the GM can still activate those. Spending a Despair on your pool is the appropriate time for the GM to make mishaps like "you drop your weapon despite your best efforts" occur, not when you're deciding how best to spend your positive dice results.

This is incorrect.

And it is literally the equivalent of wanting to shoot proton torpedos only when they hit and do damage to save ammunition.

Not sure how that is supposed to relate to using force points. If you fire a torpedo, success or failure, you've fired a shot, you don't have the option of withholding the torpedo, unlike with force points, where you expressly have that option.

A character may always choose to have any light or dark side results on the force dice not generate force points. If you're referring to something else, I'm all ears.

Check out a few posts back where the Dev's were asked the question regarding the 'must' clause. The answer is the Force user **must** spend a FP regardless of whether the attack hits or misses. If this means the Force User has to tap a Destiny Point, 1 Conflict, and use a DS pip, then that is what they have to do.

A character may always choose to have any light or dark side results on the force dice not generate force points. If you're referring to something else, I'm all ears.

Check out a few posts back where the Dev's were asked the question regarding the 'must' clause. The answer is the Force user **must** spend a FP regardless of whether the attack hits or misses. If this means the Force User has to tap a Destiny Point, 1 Conflict, and use a DS pip, then that is what they have to do.

Wow, I wouldn't inflict that ruling on my table, and the RAW is so clear cut in the exact opposite direction that I wonder if this particular word of god is more of a retcon than a clarification, but it is word of god all the same.

Thankyou for elaborating, very helpful!

This is incorrect.

A character may always choose to have any light or dark side results on the force dice not generate force points. If you're referring to something else, I'm all ears.

A character may always choose to have any light or dark side results on the force dice not generate force points. If you're referring to something else, I'm all ears.

Check out a few posts back where the Dev's were asked the question regarding the 'must' clause. The answer is the Force user **must** spend a FP regardless of whether the attack hits or misses. If this means the Force User has to tap a Destiny Point, 1 Conflict, and use a DS pip, then that is what they have to do.

You don't actually have to Flip and spend a DS point in this situation, you can choose to Fail. However the full Action of throwing and retrieving your sabre requires two Force Points and the throw must go first. Further once you make the roll you have thrown your lightsabre, succeed or fail your lightsabre is somewhere by your intended target. To retrieve it you may spend an additional (the second) Force Point. According to Sam's ruling once you roll the Attack has occurred and you must first spend a point on the Throw before you can spend one on the Retrieve.

I don't know. You could argue that you must spend one if you have it but if you roll the other color you don't actually have one you can use since it doesn't function as a force point unless you do something else.

The character must spend [pip] and succeed on the check to hit his target.

You have still thrown the saber with the intent to hit your target at range, so it is no longer in your hand, which allows you to move to the next effect whether it misses or hits.

he may spend [pip] to have the weapon return to his hand after resolving the attack

Edit: I was looking at Sam's ruling and was going to say RAW that it was incorrect , however, upon looking at the talent, the two pip effects listed are separated by a semicolon and not a full stop. What I describe above would be correct if the effects were listed separately, Semicolons, indicate a list, which then means for the second part to happen the first part would have to be true (you could separate them with the word then instead of the semicolon). So in fact RAW you do need to succeed in the attack to return your saber. So you will need 2 pips to be able to hit AND return. So contrary to what I say above perhaps not so nice and clear .

I think the intended options are:

1. Succeed & Spend 2 FP to Hit and catch Saber

2. Succeed & spend 1 FP to Hit but Saber is on the ground

3. Succeed & spend 0 FP to miss and Saber is on the ground

4. Fail & Spend 2 FP to miss but catch your Saber

5. Fail & Spend 1 FP to miss and Saber is on the ground

6. Fail & spend 0 FP to miss and Saber is on the ground

Notice there is no difference between 5 & 6, but 4 is the key to Sams answer. When you throw a Saber your going to need at least 2 FP to return it to your hand, no matter what.

I'll repeat myself. These are the 6 possible outcomes for this action.