I really try hard to wrap my head around the upcoming Wave 9 Meta,

but their are so many variables right now.

At the end of day, only the most efficient builds are played (at tournaments)

and by this will define the Meta.

The Lancer is fun, no question.

And it adds very interessting controlelements to scum.

But the Stats seem to be very mediocre.

Compared to the Jumpmaster at PS3

(PS3 + Plasma/EM/Deadeye/OCR4)

costs 32Pt.

The PS3 Lancer comes at 33Pts.

So this Ship cant be efficient on its own.

It must somehow lever its weight.

This surly will be figured out sooner or later.

My question is:

Will it be able to significantly bent the Meta?

or will it end like for example Deathrain/with connornets

...funny and awesome but not quite at the topß

It won't effect jumpmasters, but I think it will have an effect on Palp Aces. The tractor beam and stress that don't require you to actually hit will be effective and limit the places that the Aces can land, so that's a good thing for other lists.

It's way too soon to tell, but I think BMST will have the potentail to have a fairly large impact as well...

The shadowcaster is priced appropriately. FFG made a mistake when they priced the contracted scout so low. It would be an unforgivable mistake to start pricing newer ships on a par with it.

The shadowcaster is priced appropriately. FFG made a mistake when they priced the contracted scout so low. It would be an unforgivable mistake to start pricing newer ships on a par with it.

Thing is that it's highly unlikely FFG will errata the cost to anything, ever. This means anything that might be poorly priced (be it Jumpmasters, Palpatine, Zuckuss, x7 Defenders or whatever) is here to stay. Consequently you either price new stuff to be competitive with the old stuff, or people just keep playing with the old stuff.

Any new Scum Large ship needs to be priced competitively against Jumpmasters, otherwise why use it instead of a Jumpmaster ?

Nah not really palp aces has shifted to defenders and they give zero craps about stress.

Nah not really palp aces has shifted to defenders and they give zero craps about stress.

Until you start counting all the focus you roll, anyway

The shadowcaster is priced appropriately. FFG made a mistake when they priced the contracted scout so low. It would be an unforgivable mistake to start pricing newer ships on a par with it.

Thing is that it's highly unlikely FFG will errata the cost to anything, ever. This means anything that might be poorly priced (be it Jumpmasters, Palpatine, Zuckuss, x7 Defenders or whatever) is here to stay.

So to the origional question with the Lancer. If you find it fun to fly. Fly it and fly it well. If you learn the ship inside out you will hold your own (if not win) against most who just bring a list because it is 'meta'. Plus you can throw quite a few people off due to the fact that they might know how to face it.

Here's the thing with the caster and inefficient pricing in general

If you're priced inefficient AND YOU CANT DO ANYTHING APART FROM THROWING DICE, you're DOA

Example: prefix defenders not run by biophysical. What can they do? Dice, cannons (dice) and missiles (more dice)

But the K? The K is absolute trash for its point cost. But look, sir, bombs!!!

So the caster? Well its got pilot abilities and illicit, an incredible dial and the mobile arc to abuse it with

So maybe

You just have to fly well

Maybe i was to inaccurate.

Im not so much interessted, if the Lancer is over/undercosted/needsafixasap/broken/op.

Also im aware that, when you fly better than your opponent, it will be beneficall for winning.

Lets try an example:

Next regional in lets say the Top4,

you will meet Pilots who know what they are doing,

with a squad as efficient as possible.

Will f.e. the Ventres for 40somethingpoints

pay for her points?

When the opponent is well aware of the Range 2 Restriction of all her abbilities.

And has a squad with repositioning at a higher PS?

I havent flown against it myself,

(except against myself)

so im really curious.

Let say you meet:

Dengaroo

Tripple-Jumps

Dash-Norra

Palp-Aces

Palp-Defenders

and some Crackswarm

Maybe i was to inaccurate.

Im not so much interessted, if the Lancer is over/undercosted/needsafixasap/broken/op.

Also im aware that, when you fly better than your opponent, it will be beneficall for winning.

Lets try an example:

Next regional in lets say the Top4,

you will meet Pilots who know what they are doing,

with a squad as efficient as possible.

Will f.e. the Ventres for 40somethingpoints

pay for her points?

When the opponent is well aware of the Range 2 Restriction of all her abbilities.

And has a squad with repositioning at a higher PS?

I havent flown against it myself,

(except against myself)

so im really curious.

Let say you meet:

Dengaroo

Tripple-Jumps

Dash-Norra

Palp-Aces

Palp-Defenders

Ventress (especially with Shadow Caster) can pose serious problems to Palp Aces and Dengaroo and somewhat inconvenience Palp Defenders (I expect defenders to still win though). Everything qith Dash in it will tear Ventress apart though. Same goes for U-boats.

Therefore, IMO the only way I'd see Ventress making it to the top is if you face a meta full of Palp Aces and Dengaroo.

Dengaroo

Tripple-Jumps

Dash-Norra

Palp-Aces

Palp-Defenders

and some Crackswarm

1) In theory, you can keep stressing Manaroo and thus stop Dengar getting actions. But I think that's a top meta list.

2) No, but not a lot does, and very few large ship builds can.

3) I think maybe. Depends what you pair it with. You should be able to make Norra's like difficult with the tractor beam. I'm not sure I would consider this a top-meta list though.

4) Yes

5) Depends. A party bus can do damage, as could Dengar.

6) No, but few large ship builds do well against crack swarms.

Not every ships has to be meta ready. In fact, I don't think any of the ships released this wave will upset the meta. They might add a little (see Norra/Dash) but I think Dash Ghost is still better. Similarly, the fangs are nice and all, but I think the current Scum meta is better.

Any new Scum Large ship needs to be priced competitively against Jumpmasters, otherwise why use it instead of a Jumpmaster ?

Oooor they could develop upgrades and pilots that devalue the dominant Jumpmaster builds. You know, like Latts, Asajj, Ketsu, and the title. Which, granted, were probably intended to be anti-ace tech in development. Fortunately they can pull double duty against Dengaroo and, to a lesser extent, Scouts.

All I am gonna say is: Asajj is REALLY good. Latts crew is REALLY good.

Okay, one more thing to say:

When comparing Lancer to something, look at the Firespray for closest comparision. Lancer seems same cost, but sports an arc that is way more useful than the stagnant rear arc, has a better dial, a super useful title (dont knock it until you try it), and generally better pilot abilities.

Just 1 or 2 Waves ago, Firesprays were seeing top places in big tourments.

Makes me think the Lancer is definitely competitively costed, and with those abilities, could easily shake up the meta.

It's definitely not going to bend the meta around it like the contract scouts did and I agree with the above sentiment - it's a firespray with a decent dial and some good perks. Automatic stress and tractor tokens are no joke to small based ships and ventriss is solid, particularly with Latts to shore up survivability. Focus, evade, Latt's free evade, yeah that makes it pretty hard to kill quickly. It's a solid complement to some of the existing scum builds (contract scout, party bus, TLT Y-wing). But it doesn't really do anything so well that it'll be the new spammed ship. I think it'll see modest but consistent competitive play.

Imo the caster can compete and win against every popular list archetype

Except v torpscouts

Ie same as usual (not enough raw survivability/damage) and basically the theme of wave 9 (esp ARCs)

Nah not really palp aces has shifted to defenders and they give zero craps about stress.

Having flown Defenders for a bit now (though not as Palp escort), I'd completely DISagree with this.

If you qualified the statement with "...equipped with MkII Engines, they care little..." then perhaps.

Maybe i was to inaccurate.

Im not so much interessted, if the Lancer is over/undercosted/needsafixasap/broken/op.

Also im aware that, when you fly better than your opponent, it will be beneficall for winning.

Lets try an example:

Next regional in lets say the Top4,

you will meet Pilots who know what they are doing,

with a squad as efficient as possible.

Will f.e. the Ventres for 40somethingpoints

pay for her points?

When the opponent is well aware of the Range 2 Restriction of all her abbilities.

And has a squad with repositioning at a higher PS?

I havent flown against it myself,

(except against myself)

so im really curious.

Let say you meet:

Dengaroo

Tripple-Jumps

Dash-Norra

Palp-Aces

Palp-Defenders

Ventress (especially with Shadow Caster) can pose serious problems to Palp Aces and Dengaroo and somewhat inconvenience Palp Defenders (I expect defenders to still win though). Everything qith Dash in it will tear Ventress apart though. Same goes for U-boats.

Therefore, IMO the only way I'd see Ventress making it to the top is if you face a meta full of Palp Aces and Dengaroo.

Depends on the build for dengaroo. Latts crew will make ventress more survivable against dengar, ketsu crew + title iwll make it easier to kill dengar, any other crew is probably a worse option in the matchup. And with those 2 crew, it all comes down to who can kill the other faster. If dengar keeps asajj in arc, she's probaly in trouble. And while she's fast, she's not any faster than manaroo for trying to keep manaroo stressed (other than the 5s, which shouldn't matter all THAT often). And manaroo could always just...not ptl if necessary, in which case 1 stress doesn't bother her a ton.

Edit: (Depends on the rest of asajj's list as well of course)

Nah not really palp aces has shifted to defenders and they give zero craps about stress.

Having flown Defenders for a bit now (though not as Palp escort), I'd completely DISagree with this.

If you qualified the statement with "...equipped with MkII Engines, they care little..." then perhaps.

Well as one of very few people to fly defenders since wave four, as the guy who designed the DD archetype I'm gonna go with my own expert analysis over someone that's only flown them since vets came out.

It wont dominate, it should add a layer of complexity though

Stressbot 2.0

Latts

Bmst

Ig+party bus

Asajj

Ketsu

It's all gear thats not meta defining, but at the same time can put serious crimps in the current meta builds when played right

It seems more like a faster X-wing type ship.

I really try hard to wrap my head around the upcoming Wave 9 Meta,

but their are so many variables right now.

At the end of day, only the most efficient builds are played (at tournaments)

and by this will define the Meta.

There are always those break away lists that someone comes out with that ends up working really well when no one saw it ahead of time. Biophysical did great at events with Tie Defenders before the fix. 3 K-wings did well. There are always crazy builds that end up working well when flown with a good pilot. They often come in late when people have already formed opinions about what is good and what sucks. I think the idea of the best lists always get taken is not really true. Good lists are always taken, but I think there are always a few more good lists that haven't been discovered yet that are waiting to be brought forward.

Imo the caster can compete and win against every popular list archetype

Except v torpscouts

I'm sure you can come up with a list that is specifically built to beat U-boats, but then you have to face the other lists.

Also recall that the meta shifts at times. Wait a bit and maybe U-boats aren't around as much as they are and there are a few new builds. If this ship isn't used right away with great success, it doesn't mean it won't fit in great in the next wave or two.

Nah not really palp aces has shifted to defenders and they give zero craps about stress.

Having flown Defenders for a bit now (though not as Palp escort), I'd completely DISagree with this.

If you qualified the statement with "...equipped with MkII Engines, they care little..." then perhaps.

Well as one of very few people to fly defenders since wave four, as the guy who designed the DD archetype I'm gonna go with my own expert analysis over someone that's only flown them since vets came out.

Imo the caster can compete and win against every popular list archetype

Except v torpscouts

I'm sure you can come up with a list that is specifically built to beat U-boats, but then you have to face the other lists.

Also recall that the meta shifts at times. Wait a bit and maybe U-boats aren't around as much as they are and there are a few new builds. If this ship isn't used right away with great success, it doesn't mean it won't fit in great in the next wave or two.

oh for sure

though I doubt Casters will see uber wide-spread use because I believe they're very difficult to learn to fly effectively, seeing as how they lack the rather simple and excessive dice modification of popular lists (u-boats, palp aces, x7 defenders, fat han from the days of yore etc.)

they "only" have focus + evade on 2 agi, or fully modified 3 dice primaries (no palp no 4-dice no gunner etc.), so you have to rely on their mobile arc and pilot ability tricks

they're my next project now that I've thoroughly immersed myself in ARCs, and they're basically the exact opposite (large base and fast as opposed to small base and slooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwww ), so that'll be fun

Imo the caster can compete and win against every popular list archetype

Except v torpscouts

I'm sure you can come up with a list that is specifically built to beat U-boats, but then you have to face the other lists.

Also recall that the meta shifts at times. Wait a bit and maybe U-boats aren't around as much as they are and there are a few new builds. If this ship isn't used right away with great success, it doesn't mean it won't fit in great in the next wave or two.

oh for sure

though I doubt Casters will see uber wide-spread use because I believe they're very difficult to learn to fly effectively, seeing as how they lack the rather simple and excessive dice modification of popular lists (u-boats, palp aces, x7 defenders, fat han from the days of yore etc.)

they "only" have focus + evade on 2 agi, or fully modified 3 dice primaries (no palp no 4-dice no gunner etc.), so you have to rely on their mobile arc and pilot ability tricks

they're my next project now that I've thoroughly immersed myself in ARCs, and they're basically the exact opposite (large base and fast as opposed to small base and slooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwww ), so that'll be fun

I haven't spent as much time on the ARCs as you (since you had them before official worldwide launch), so I'll be using them a bit more, but I'm excited to try a variety of lists that include either Ketsu or Asajj, so hopefully we can see a wide variety of experiences and sort of reviews of play on the Caster within the next month.

they're my next project now that I've thoroughly immersed myself in ARCs, and they're basically the exact opposite (large base and fast as opposed to small base and slooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwww ), so that'll be fun

That's good to hear. I like it when people really dive into a ship and try it out. I look forward to reading about it.

I just got my Wave 9 stuff over the weekend and haven't had a chance to fly them. I'm not sure what I want to fly first, to be honest. I got everything, except the Special Forces Tie (short on cash). Maybe fly scum and include both of those ships in it? I'll have to come up with a fun list.