So, Madine. Am I correct in thinking that, if you spend a nav dial and a nav token, you can get up to +3 yaw in a turn?

+1 Normal dial

+1 Madine dial

+1 Madine token (if you use it for yaw instead of changing speed)

So, Madine. Am I correct in thinking that, if you spend a nav dial and a nav token, you can get up to +3 yaw in a turn?

+1 Normal dial

+1 Madine dial

+1 Madine token (if you use it for yaw instead of changing speed)

Yes, that is a legitimate interpretation of how Madine would work

Although, as I have been appending to my local players questions when they ask.

"If you also put Nav Teams on your Liberty, I will cut you."

Ozzel costs less, and allows you to both spend a token for yaw, and gain a change of speed. just putting that out there.

But he doesn't let you gain 3 clicks of Yaw.

And also I can't take him with MC30's.

Man, so finally got around to trying Madine this morning with my MC30 list. He's... pretty good. MC30's at speed 4 and turning on a dime? Two clicks at EVERY NODE at speed 3?

Yes please.

Ozzel costs less, and allows you to both spend a token for yaw, and gain a change of speed. just putting that out there.

That would require a Nav team.

Ozzel costs less, and allows you to both spend a token for yaw, and gain a change of speed. just putting that out there.

That would require a Nav team.

No it doesn't, according to FFG, you may spend a nav token for yaw, and change speed by 1 with Admiral Ozzel.

But he doesn't let you gain 3 clicks of Yaw.

Argument doesn't hold water, Madine is worded very specifically, and we have a precedent with Ozzel allowing normal effects to be generated on top of the effects Ozzel himself can generate.

But he doesn't let you gain 3 clicks of Yaw.

Argument doesn't hold water, Madine is worded very specifically, and we have a precedent with Ozzel allowing normal effects to be generated on top of the effects Ozzel himself can generate.

Does or does not Ozzel let you use 3 extra yaw?

The answer is, he does not.

So you are just being a fool again.

Ozzel costs less, and allows you to both spend a token for yaw, and gain a change of speed. just putting that out there.

That would require a Nav team.

No it doesn't, according to FFG, you may spend a nav token for yaw, and change speed by 1 with Admiral Ozzel.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/195473-nav-team-ozzel/?p=2045396

Ozzel costs less, and allows you to both spend a token for yaw, and gain a change of speed. just putting that out there.

That would require a Nav team.

No it doesn't, according to FFG, you may spend a nav token for yaw, and change speed by 1 with Admiral Ozzel.

Errr...if you have a Nav Team.

To make it easy:

Ozzel without Nav Team:

Dial: 1 Yaw and 1-2 Speed change.

Token: 1-2 Speed change.

Dial: + Token: 1 Yaw and 1-3 Speed change.

Ozzel with Nav Team:

Dial: 1 Yaw and 1-2 Speed change.

Token: 1-2 Speed change or 1 Yaw and 1 Speed Change

Dial + Token: 1 Yaw and 1-3 Speed change or 2 Yaw and 1-2 Speed change.

General Madine without Nav Team:

Dial: 2 Yaw and 1 Speed change.

Token: 1 Speed change or 1 Yaw

Dial + Token: 2 Yaw and 1-2 Speed change or 3 Yaw and 1 Speed change.

General Madine with Nav Team:

Save the 4 Points, it does not change anything.

Yes I messed that up quite badly.

The point I failed to write properly was : Usually you can only spend something to generate one effect, not two effects, but Ozzel allows you to spend a token with Nav teams, and also be used to generate his effect.

Giving a precedent for Madine, there is no reason why you cannot spend a Nav token for its standard effect, and gain Madines effect at the same time.

I mean we have wording already for changing the usage of a Nav Token (Nav Team) they could have just copied that text verbatim onto Madine, but they worded him differently, why did they word him differently if they wanted to just duplicate the effect of a Nav Team?

I'm sure they used shorter wording to fit better on the card.

In any case, Ozzel's ability gives you an additional speed change. Madine's token ability doesn't give you anything additional, it merely allows you to choose between the standard effect, and a different effect.

But that's been very well explained to you, and you've yet to see the distinction between an additional effect, and not an additional effect.

Madine is past tense DerErlkoenig, it does not say "when you spend." it says "if it was spent."

Meaning that Madines interaction is after you have spent your token, what did you spend your token on before Madine comes into effect?

So I know full well what an additional effect looks like, Nav Teams allows an additional effect to be generated, any crit upgrade card allows an additional effect to be generated over the standard crit effect, yet they are one and all worded differently than Madine is.

any crit upgrade card allows an additional effect to be generated over the standard crit effect, yet they are one and all worded differently than Madine is.

Quoted this because its something we all have an agreed understanding of. And this is not the agreed understanding.

What we agree;

any crit upgrade card allows an alternative effect to be generated instead the standard crit effect

Additional and alternative do not mean the same thing

any crit upgrade card allows an additional effect to be generated over the standard crit effect, yet they are one and all worded differently than Madine is.

Quoted this because its something we all have an agreed understanding of. And this is not the agreed understanding.

What we agree;

any crit upgrade card allows an alternative effect to be generated instead the standard crit effect

Additional and alternative do not mean the same thing

Ok, I can accept that, but surely that is semantics?

With a Nav Team you can :

Gain one Speed

Gain one Yaw

With APT

You can trigger APT

You can deal one face up damage

I mean all they needed to do on Madine was say "spend" and not "spent" and there would be zero discussion about it because it would be crystal clear what was meant. The fact they did not say "spend" is why I am questioning the usage of Madine and his interaction with Nav Dial/Token.

any crit upgrade card allows an additional effect to be generated over the standard crit effect, yet they are one and all worded differently than Madine is.

Quoted this because its something we all have an agreed understanding of. And this is not the agreed understanding.

What we agree;

any crit upgrade card allows an alternative effect to be generated instead the standard crit effect

Additional and alternative do not mean the same thing

Ok, I can accept that, but surely that is semantics?

With a Nav Team you can :

Gain one Speed

Gain one Yaw

With APT

You can trigger APT

You can deal one face up damage

I mean all they needed to do on Madine was say "spend" and not "spent" and there would be zero discussion about it because it would be crystal clear what was meant. The fact they did not say "spend" is why I am questioning the usage of Madine and his interaction with Nav Dial/Token.

And how are you explaining Overload Pulse to be additional?

It not semantics, because it matters.

Spend vs spent is irrelevant. Both nav teams and madine give the same effect on token use, "as in same wording", and neither use the word additional.

Ok, I can accept that, but surely that is semantics?

I mean all they needed to do on Madine was say "spend" and not "spent" and there would be zero discussion about it because it would be crystal clear what was meant. The fact they did not say "spend" is why I am questioning the usage of Madine and his interaction with Nav Dial/Token.

The one arguing the fine, exacting, beastly indistinguishable issue of semantics is you.

Everyone else is arguing that there is a gaping hole caused by a lack of the word "additional" that suggests that he doesn't provide an additional ability.

You are arguing that he does provide an additional ability (despite no indication that he does) by stressing the potential implications of the tense used in the wording.

The one arguing goofy semantics here is you.

So now that GK posted the email for the Nav Team interaction, does anybody else think that FFG got the right answer for the wrong reason? Why can't two effects stack just because the have the same verbiage? Look at BCC, they just ruled two instances of the same card can stack. The reason seems counterintuitive.

That said, I do agree that Madine should not stack with Nav Teams, but I feel the better rationale would be that Nav team is an alternative spend type of the token (like an alternate crit). They could have just said that Madine only works works with the "standard Nav token spend"

So now that GK posted the email for the Nav Team interaction, does anybody else think that FFG got the right answer for the wrong reason? Why can't two effects stack just because the have the same verbiage? Look at BCC, they just ruled two instances of the same card can stack. The reason seems counterintuitive.

That said, I do agree that Madine should not stack with Nav Teams, but I feel the better rationale would be that Nav team is an alternative spend type of the token (like an alternate crit). They could have just said that Madine only works works with the "standard Nav token spend"

No, I don't.

I think they certainly got the right answer...

The question is wether they are providing a Redundant Effect, or a Repeatable effect.

Essentially, we're now looking at two sets of Core Rules... One is spend . When something is spent, and has consequences for being spent, how many effects can it generate? THe answer is many ... But in this case, the effect is essentially a Rule that says "You may do this thing". Now, you have two sets of permissions "You may do this Thing...." But that doesn't translate to "You made Do this Thing, AND you may do this thing." Because that is Additional, and there is no additional allowance in either Nav Teams or General Madine (Token)... There is in the (Dial) however.

If the Core Rule on Rerolling was "You cannot Reroll a Reroll", then you would have the same chain of events happening with the BCC stacking - You would be generating two Permissions for the event, and only being able to action One of them...

I still believe there is a subtle, but important, wording differance between what would generate two explicitly different effects.

Your tokens can either change your speed or increase your yaw value by 1

"Either" change your Speed, or Increase your Yaw Value by 1... You have One Token, you can do either of those Two Things...

I can see where the trap is.

Thee Trap is seeing "Resolves" as a Separate section to "resolving"....

The assumption with Madine is, I have Spent a Nav Token and gotten 'x' effect, and have done it this way because of Nav Team ... But because I have Madine, I then go and get to do 'y' additionally... When really, we have two effects with the same timing (and same effect).

How does that interact with Spending a compoent for an upgrade effect and thusly not generating its normal effect?

Personally, I felt it was redundant more than one way... And I'm glad its done and dusted with.

HOW this sits will be best answered with the OTHER test of Redundant Effect: XX9 and Default Crit, via Fire Control Teams.

If they DO stack, then I feel we have grounds to come back to it... And I will HATE, HATE, DOUBLE-HATE, LOATHE ENTIRELY that situation should it come to it.

Got it. I was thinking of Madine as a net add effect of 1 speed or 1 yaw on top of the standard token resolution. But it really only adds the option to resolve it as 1 yaw.

RRG-

Token: Increase or decrease the ship’s speed by one.

Madine/Nav Team

Token: can either change its speed (per rrg rule) or increase 1 yaw value by 1

I think the more important thing to realize is that Madine does not allow your token to change 2 speed with one token.