I think a title at -2 points puts the Defender in a good niche for most squadrons. That said, I think x7 is maybe a tiny bit too good; personally, I would've liked to see it give a free evade action, rather than just a free token. That way, the opponent can actually play to counter to some degree. As it is, things like stress just don't concern defenders very much.

But if it were a free evade action, you'd have the problem of not effectively being able to bump the suckers, since they could go fast, bump, then trigger the free evade action to proc PtL and barrel roll out of the bump. It would have been pretty mean. It had to be a token.

Oh, good point. I did not even consider that.

So to revise my earlier stance:

I wish the title read "After executing a 3-, 4-, or 5- speed maneuver, if you did not overlap another ship or obstacle, you may perform a free evade action."

Part of the reason that defenders are so good is their ability to ignore things like stress and bumping, which are usually key to reigning in aces. And that's fair enough to a point; it gives them a nice niche in Imperial lists. The problem is that they do that already, without the title, simply by virtue of having a white K-turn and six hit points. At this point, they really seem to fly like sledgehammers more than anything, and I'm not a huge fan.

Agreed with points made upthread, as an avid major's commonwealth pilot: if the evade token was a free evade action that can be stopped by a block, then the ships can then be outflown.

As is, they tend to nullify all 2 die attacks. Make them blockable, and they can be beaten.

Free action doesn't care about block

You're thinking of the action step (which is still important due to focus stacking with evade)

Free action evade just lets stress stop it

like it the way it is ... now.

No, the TIE/d should have been -2.

What would make the x7 actually balanced...since the Palp Defenders list obviously has not made it to other metas yet...is to make it a free evade action instead of a free evade token with a caveat that it cannot take it if it overlaps an obstacle or ship

Because as it stands, even if the Defender gets blocked, it still gets the evade. Even if it's stressed, it still gets the evade.

3 shields, 3 agility, a free evade, and palp....its' exceptionally tough to crack.

There's a reason why every single tournament in the Atlanta area has been won by Palp Defenders since they came out.

Man, people really like their Defenders! I honestly wouldn't have brought this up if I didn't think that there was waaaaaay too many of them on tables right now, especially in comparison to the Bomber which I'm starting to think a lot of players tossed in the trash when they opened that box. There is also the new toy effect in place, but, like I said, Tie Bomber sure hasn't gotten the same bump in play (although it did get a small bump).

Agreed with points made upthread, as an avid major's commonwealth pilot: if the evade token was a free evade action that can be stopped by a block, then the ships can then be outflown.

As is, they tend to nullify all 2 die attacks. Make them blockable, and they can be beaten.

Fully agree with this. The great thing about blocking is it nullifies all actions for PTLers and action stacking ships. But with x7s, that's not the case. So you instead are going out of your way to expend a ship to block, fully knowing the ship still gets an evade token. I played a game a few days ago where I had 2 4 dice kill shots (different rounds) on Ryad who was blocked and/or double stressed. She lived both with the help of Palp and the title and some good dice, and he went on to close out the game. And yes, I probably should have killed Palp first, but that's hard to do when you have 4 ships on the board against a 1 hull Ryad.

Also, to those who seem to think losing those upgrade slots is a heavy penalty, I beg to differ. Restricting list building capabilities doesn't mean the ship is worse unless the most optimal builds are being lost by making those restrictions. Defender has 3 primary attack as is, so paying for a cannon or missile isn't a great investment usually anyways.

It had to have a negative value because the Defender price point was set to high to begin with. I do think -2 was excessive. -1 would have been fine and the D title should have had the -2. Makes me wonder if someone got it backwards during design?

Just won a little 16 Person Tournament after making a 5 month-Break from Xwing.

I won the Final vs the Number 1 Ranked Tournament - Player who brought the List which he finished 2. at nationals.

(U-Boots + Partybus)

I brought Deltax7 / Ryad x7 / InquisitorProckets.

I also won vs Dengaroo after loosing the Inq in the first round to an Plasma from Dengar (oneshot).

Its nice that the Defenders bring back the generics and the "jousters" to the table,

...but the x7 is much more powerfull in comparsion to other jousters / generics.

for example X7 delta 28 Pt. to

lets say T70 Blue / Pattern Analyzer / Targeting Astro / IA

that ship gets 1,5 Aktion per turn wenn K-Turning

The delta gets 2,0 Akions per turn.

Evade isnt deniable, and the evade is right now the best action in the game.

The defender won the tournament for me.

It is way over the powercurve, specifically in comparsion to the Tie/SF (whos worthless right now)

I would field them if X7 was -1.

I would use X7 on ryad if it was 0 Points.

the evade is right now the best action in the game.

It always was, the issue was that taking it - meant you had no offensive modifiers.

Now that isn't an issue anymore (Juke, x7, FCS, Palp, and so on).

Are we really now to the point of "These fixes were too good!" ?

C'mon FFG, fix the X-Wing, but don't over-fix it. . .

Are we really now to the point of "These fixes were too good!" ?

C'mon FFG, fix the X-Wing, but don't over-fix it. . .

Everyone's waiting for the Rogue/Wraith Squadron Expansion.

Defenders are finally somewhat (note: somewhat, it's not like they've completely overtaken the meta like a certain toilet-bowl shaped wanker) viable, so naturally people are whinging they should be nerfed.

'bout right for this forum.

Are we really now to the point of "These fixes were too good!" ?

C'mon FFG, fix the X-Wing, but don't over-fix it. . .

That's exactly what I would say to them. A fix should put a ship on the power curve, not above it.

Defenders are finally somewhat (note: somewhat, it's not like they've completely overtaken the meta like a certain toilet-bowl shaped wanker) viable, so naturally people are whinging they should be nerfed.

'bout right for this forum.

Ya, it's about right for this forum alright.

And I'd disagree and say that in a lot of places it has, or is on the verge of being just as large a presence as the toilet bowls in the meta. If I were to rank lists archetypes, 2x Defenders + Palp would be number one overall, ahead of Dengaroo and Uboats.

Defenders are finally somewhat (note: somewhat, it's not like they've completely overtaken the meta like a certain toilet-bowl shaped wanker) viable, so naturally people are whinging they should be nerfed.

'bout right for this forum.

I mean, they have. The last two tournaments i've played in were either won by defenders or had the entire cut consist of them. At no point did the entire cut ever consist of u-boats.

And yes, I meant that I wished the evades could be blocked away. I'be seen some really fun lists pop up in Atlanta over the last month, and the crux of it comes to "yeah but you're gonna dodge half my attacks."

Defenders are finally somewhat (note: somewhat, it's not like they've completely overtaken the meta like a certain toilet-bowl shaped wanker) viable, so naturally people are whinging they should be nerfed.

'bout right for this forum.

I mean, they have. The last two tournaments i've played in were either won by defenders or had the entire cut consist of them. At no point did the entire cut ever consist of u-boats.

oh what horrors the x7 has unleashed

I think part of it is that Defenders, especially the X7, are a very good option right now because of the rest of the meta. Defenders have always performed better when taking on smaller lists and the meta seems to be shifting back toward that. It will be interesting to see if the meta is able to react to them as I don't think that's the case yet. I'm still hearing players ask about Dengaroo, Scouts, Palp Aces (including but not limited to defender versions, etc)...it seems that only now people are starting to ask that question. At the same time, I think that Defenders are going to perform well regardless because they are so efficient, but I think we'll see if they can hold the top spot in the meta.

I've been considering them in my builds lately, and while I'm not 100% sure I've found the answer I've beaten them consistently over the last few weeks without flying any in a list myself (my last loss to them was when I had 2 defenders myself). That success includes against some very good players while I've run some lists that most people have raised eyebrows at because they include T70's or Tie/sf's.

That success includes against some very good players while I've run some lists that most people have raised eyebrows at because they include T70's or Tie/sf's.

Well, that at least tells me that there are some answers for x7 in Wave 9/ HotR.

Cause in Wave 8 there were view.

This title has a problem, which imo, is not in its cost.
The real issue with x7 title is that you can't do anything to prevent the defender from getting its evade token. Classic gameplay mechanism (stress, block) just doesn't work on them, and that's plain dumb.

The only way to fix it is to change the card text thusly :

TIE /X7
TIE DEFENDER ONLY. TITLE.
Your upgrade bar loses the Cannon and Missile upgrade icons.
After executing a 3,4 or 5 speed manoeuver, you may perform a free evade action.

-2 pts


Here you go, Defender fixed. Now dealing with it through blocks or stress works, as it should.

The TIE Defender was overcosted by a fair bit in my opinion, I think the -2 points is fair. /x7's fall quickly to focus fire and fickle dice. If you split your fire you are playing into their abilities.

This title has a problem, which imo, is not in its cost.

The real issue with x7 title is that you can't do anything to prevent the defender from getting its evade token. Classic gameplay mechanism (stress, block) just doesn't work on them, and that's plain dumb.

The only way to fix it is to change the card text thusly :

TIE /X7

TIE DEFENDER ONLY. TITLE.

Your upgrade bar loses the Cannon and Missile upgrade icons.

After executing a 3,4 or 5 speed manoeuver, you may perform a free evade action.

-2 pts

Here you go, Defender fixed. Now dealing with it through blocks or stress works, as it should.

Or maybe, you know, the card says what the designers wanted and it works, as it should. Sounds like someone can't hang. Jus sayin.

This is a game design flaw :

TIE /X7

TIE DEFENDER ONLY. TITLE.

Hey, this ship now doesn't give a **** about how well you play against it, it just gets an evade and 3 green dice.

-2 pts

Or maybe, you know, the card says what the designers wanted and it works, as it should. Sounds like someone can't hang. Jus sayin.

Like it's the first time the designers made a mistake on one of xwings cards.

This is a game design flaw :

TIE /X7

TIE DEFENDER ONLY. TITLE.

Hey, this ship now doesn't give a **** about how well you play against it, it just gets an evade and 3 green dice.

-2 pts

Or maybe, you know, the card says what the designers wanted and it works, as it should. Sounds like someone can't hang. Jus sayin.

Like it's the first time the designers made a mistake on one of xwings cards.

There's a discussion to be had about whether that's the case or not. From a player perspective sure, some cards are unusable. But from a business standpoint...being able to shift the Meta to any ship you'd like (maybe a ship that isn't selling) by just releasing a card that shifts the old Meta ships lower on the tier and puts new ones in the spotlight...it seems like a win.

I think that they wanted to move more Defenders since predator is no longer a very good reason to get one. So they release a box with a new paint job and a "fix". The title allows for more defender power yes, but it's far from game breaking. I'd say that this card is working exactly as intended by moving units.

Just for fun, think about the humble X-wing. How many have sold since wave 1? How many will sell when the "fix" comes in? How many T-70's were sold just for IA? They are milking it for every red cent.

How much did the Advanced title help (to sell) the Advanced, not to mention moving Raiders? There was a ton of whinging then too (adding a crit is too much/ title is OP), but now it's an accepted part of the game.

This is the business model. It's not going to change.

So what if the Defender gets an evade? I've heard that an evade token can only cancel one hit result...and it's fun as all get out to play. I mean come on, it's not like it allows endless shield regeneration, or stops your ability to modify your dice (and those aren't broken either).

That success includes against some very good players while I've run some lists that most people have raised eyebrows at because they include T70's or Tie/sf's.

Well, that at least tells me that there are some answers for x7 in Wave 9/ HotR.

Cause in Wave 8 there were view.

The T-70s I used had IA as their most recent upgrade, so you don't have to wait. 3 Red Squadrons with CS and various droids (R3-A2 on one is madatory -- it counters Ryad handily and can at least help limit other defenders) along with a blocker (I ran an A-wing). These guys have tons of health and a better initial joust if your red dice don't abandon you. I usually managed to take down or at least cripple a defender badly on the first pass. The caveat is that if you don't, it can get tough because the T70s struggle to turn around.

This is a game design flaw :

TIE /X7

TIE DEFENDER ONLY. TITLE.

Hey, this ship now doesn't give a **** about how well you play against it, it just gets an evade and 3 green dice.

-2 pts

Or maybe, you know, the card says what the designers wanted and it works, as it should. Sounds like someone can't hang. Jus sayin.

Like it's the first time the designers made a mistake on one of xwings cards.

[...]

How much did the Advanced title help (to sell) the Advanced, not to mention moving Raiders? There was a ton of whinging then too (adding a crit is too much/ title is OP), but now it's an accepted part of the game.

[...]

I have no problem with Adv title, since you can get rid of it the classic way : just prevent the thing from doing an action, problem solved. With the defender you're just limiting the playable lists by requiring a shitload of firepower to get rid of it.

But globally, yes, I think you are right.