So with my latest experience of playing against Tie x7 Defenders every other game lately, I have had the question- why does x7 cost -2 points? It is an incredibly efficient title that makes the Defender absurdly effective. The Tie D title on the other hand, while fun and effective in some cases, struggles from action deficiency comparatively, and along with the 2 point tax it pays over x7, it also has the tax it has to pay for the cannon it equips. So, it is effectively 3-5 points more than the Tie x7 title.

So to you Defender players out there- if The Tie x7 title was a 0 point upgrade, would you still prefer it over Tie D, or would it be useless at that point cost? Because at least in my experience, it seems to be a bit too effective to warrant a -2 cost. Perhaps in a non-Palp world, it would be fine, but getting 2 free evades guaranteed on Defenders outside of your usual action (until you kill Palp) is incredible, especially with the Defender's capability to tail your ships while you chase down Palp.

I don't think so, but I think the TIE D/ should have been -2 points.

Eh

Personally, while I acknowledge the x7 to be super strong and occasionally irritating to hit, I don't find them to be an utter matchup wash like uboats often are

Might be because I ALWAYS build to encounter x7 defense even against ghosts but that's just me and my dice

No, but TIE/D definitely would've worked better if it had also had a negative cost. Of course, that's not to say it doesn't work, but it would be more common.

I think -2 points is fair. Yes that evade is nuts but they lose half their upgrade slots and half their dial to use it. Neither of those are backbreaking clearly but to give up all of that and have no point cost benefit seems iffy.

I think it´s perfect at -2, the only mistake made is that Tie/D is not also -2 pts.

What about having both cost -1? I think they could both see play at that cost.

I dunno... I think /X7 is fine, and I'm okay with /D being 0 points, because for +1 point, you add an additional Tractor Beam attack, for +2 points, you have a Flechette Cannon attack to add stress, and for +3 points, you have an Ion Cannon attack.

Hopefully, a new 3-or-less cost cannon is added to the game, soon.

I dunno... I think /X7 is fine, and I'm okay with /D being 0 points, because for +1 points, you add an additional Tractor Beam attack, for +2 points, you have a Flachette Cannon attack to add stress, and for +3 points, you have an Ion Cannon attack.

Hopefully, a new 3-or-less cost cannon is added to the game, soon.

I did a game the other night with /D and a tractor beam. Not sure it's the best according to the "meta" but I sure enjoyed it and my opponent was clearly intimidated by it! I smashed a ship into an asteroid a couple times.

The problem with Defenders was how expensive they were for what you got. A 3 all across the board sounds nice but with no evade action/tokens it can drop like a brick (see Fickle's name). In addition to that, because the Defender was so expensive you had to build your list around it (A fully decked out Fel costs the same as Vessery and is much harder to hit). Now with the X7 you only slightly have to build around it.

If the X7 cost 0 points instead of -2 I think people would still run it, but I think Defenders would still be at the bottom compared to cheap aces like the Inquisitor and Fel that accomplish the same thing for less.

Nah. Have to remember they gotta move fast to even get the benefit from it and they lose procket options.

Had they retained Procket availability i'd be inclined to agree.

The -2 points is VERY OFTEN the reason they even fit in most lists. The xD title doesnt make them cheaper so you have to build around it with the whole list, while the x7 lets you do the usual "i got X points randomly....lets bring this guy!" and it'll usually work. Without the -2, lot of lists became 101/102

What about having both cost -1? I think they could both see play at that cost.

Because of the vagaries of the 100 point game, -1 instead of -2 on x7 is almost a dealbreaker for the very tippy-top end of the meta. PTL/Mk2 Ryad is 37 points, Juke Vessery is 36 points, which leaves 27 points, i.e., not enough for a Palpshuttle. That list probably drops Juke from Vessery and takes Adaptability, and is still pretty strong, but it might be an issue.

No.

I love TIE Defenders, and think the titles are priced right. But... Being such an advanced starfighter... Maybe a title that exchanges your cannon slot for a systems one? An FCS Defender looks good IMHO

I don't think so, but I think the TIE D/ should have been -2 points.

I totally agree.

I disagree that the TIE/x7 title should be 0 points. Both title upgrades seem appropriately costed exactly where their at.

For the TIE/x7, I agree with the negative point cost because the title takes away two of your upgrade slots (limiting your build options with the Defender) and semi-locks you into a specific strategy with your Defender. If you're not going speed 3 or more each turn, you're not getting the benefit of a title you equipped. Yes, you probably will be going speed 3 or more each turn (especially with that 4 K-turn), but any turns you don't are turns that you're title does nothing for you.

TIE/D on the other hand is giving you an entire second attack. Your single TIE Defender attacks become two each turn. If the TIE/D title had been a negative point cost (as some other comments are suggesting it should be), then you would be getting a cannon upgrade at a reduced cost. For example, if the TIE/D were -2 to equip, you'd get an Ion Cannon for 1 point or a Tractor Beam for free. That just seems way too good to me.

If the TIE/D had cost any more than 0 points, I get the feeling it wouldn't be used much at all. It'd be making an already expensive ship that much more expensive. 0 points is just the right cost in my opinion.

Should Tie/x7 have been 0 points?

No but the TIE/D should have been -2 as well.

Nah. Have to remember they gotta move fast to even get the benefit from it and they lose procket options.

Had they retained Procket availability i'd be inclined to agree.

The -2 points is VERY OFTEN the reason they even fit in most lists. The xD title doesnt make them cheaper so you have to build around it with the whole list, while the x7 lets you do the usual "i got X points randomly....lets bring this guy!" and it'll usually work. Without the -2, lot of lists became 101/102

This is so true. Not only does having /D NOT make the Defender cheaper, it actually makes it more expensive because you HAVE to strap a cannon onto it. So going with /D means a net cost of 3-6 more points.

No.

This episode of long question short answer is sponsored by vorn, when you want your scales to look their best choose vorn.

No.

This episode of long question short answer is sponsored by vorn, when you want your scales to look their best choose vorn.

I mean, that is the answer. TIE Defenders are exactly in line with the current meta in terms of points to power. They're like, some of the most viable generics right now (along with Black Squadron, Contracted Scouts and the bus driver for the bounty hunter trio). It's true that they're a bit more powerful than like, other generics (sorry about it, T-70 generics), but that's because those things have fallen behind in 100pt games. If the x7 title had a greater cost, the new Defenders would be more in line with other generics ...which means they wouldn't be priced correctly for today's meta, and you wouldn't see them.

x7 Defenders are in a good place.

Being in a good place does not mean "are they too good?! Nerf, nerf, nerf?". To which I respond, "No, man. No."

Uh oh. My short answer became a long answer. Whoospies.

It's a running gag on the forum I was just trying to be funny

The TIE/D title probably suffers from being too potentially abusive with Vessery. It's an awesome option on Vess, because he can modify both attacks pretty easily with a TL on each. That is devastatingly potent, and well worth the +3-4 points over the TIE/X7 in most match-ups. The rest of the TIE Defenders, though, don't get nearly as much mileage out of the TIE/D title, so it's probably costed as basically a "Vessery Only" card.


Still, I think if small ships with PS=8 or PS<8 become more prevalent, a Vessery Tractor Beam /D will become more common. He's abusive against small ships, especially things like TLT Ys which he can usually either put on a rock or push/pull out of effective TLT range, thus depriving them of an attack and making them agility 0 for the rest of the turn. Problem is, so much of the meta is Jumpmaters, Party Buses, Ghosts, or PS9 Fel that it's difficult to get full value out of tractor beam, making its effectiveness very match-up dependent.


So TIE/X7 > TIE/D, except on Vessery and when the opponent is flying small ships, typically

Since you can't control what your opponent brings, though, that probably leads more people to opt for Juke Glaive X7, Onyx X7, or PTL Ryad X7 since those are generally good against a variety of things.

I think a title at -2 points puts the Defender in a good niche for most squadrons. That said, I think x7 is maybe a tiny bit too good; personally, I would've liked to see it give a free evade action, rather than just a free token. That way, the opponent can actually play to counter to some degree. As it is, things like stress just don't concern defenders very much.

I think a title at -2 points puts the Defender in a good niche for most squadrons. That said, I think x7 is maybe a tiny bit too good; personally, I would've liked to see it give a free evade action, rather than just a free token. That way, the opponent can actually play to counter to some degree. As it is, things like stress just don't concern defenders very much.

But if it were a free evade action, you'd have the problem of not effectively being able to bump the suckers, since they could go fast, bump, then trigger the free evade action to proc PtL and barrel roll out of the bump. It would have been pretty mean. It had to be a token.

I think the D title is fair. I agree the x7 is a bit too good though.

I think it should have been a point reduction or a free evade but not both.