Hi..

Just wondering what happnes if a Shadowcaster with a rigged cargo shute, places, ( dumps - is probably what you do with all your leftovers), on top of an enemy ship ? The base of the ship is in/on the cloud

Does the ship get stressed + 1 die roll, when the cloud i placed, and possibly the same again, when it moves out of the cloud, or only when it moves out of the cloud. (like moving from a rock)

What are your idears on this matter ?

Regards....

I would assume that the effect takes place immediately, much like if you dropped a prox mine on top of a ship.

If the ship has to move out of the debris cloud afterwards, then it again would suffer the effects.

I would assume that the effect takes place immediately, much like if you dropped a prox mine on top of a ship.

If the ship has to move out of the debris cloud afterwards, then it again would suffer the effects.

Indeed so. The rules state that the debris immediately affects the ship if dropped on it, which means it immediately takes a stress and rolls for damage. Then if its template crosses the field when it moves, it rolls again.

I would assume that the effect takes place immediately, much like if you dropped a prox mine on top of a ship.

If the ship has to move out of the debris cloud afterwards, then it again would suffer the effects.

Indeed so. The rules state that the debris immediately affects the ship if dropped on it, which means it immediately takes a stress and rolls for damage. Then if its template crosses the field when it moves, it rolls again.

Thanx for the replies - where can i find the rules for the debris ? I can't seem to find them anywhere ....

They're in the rule book and the card that come with the Shadow Caster.

They're in the rule book and the card that come with the Shadow Caster.

Great.. Thanx...

They're in the rule book and the card that come with the Shadow Caster.

Great.. Thanx...

Look under "Obstacles", page 14

Is there an official source for having whoever the cargo was dumped on roll a die and receive a stress?

The rules for debris clouds are :

• After the “Check Pilot Stress” step, the ship receives one stress token.
• After the “Perform Action” step, it rolls one attack die. On a [crit] result, the ship suffers one critical damage.
• The ship can still perform attacks.

When the cargo is dropped on the ship, there is no "Check Pilot Stress", nor is there a "Perform Action" step.

But I seem to recall this discussion taking place already... I just can't remember if there was an official conclusion?

There's nothing that explicitly says which effects it takes, but the rules explicitly state that it takes the effects of the rock IIRC>

There's been some of the usual arguing about exactly what that means, and I'd expect and FAQ update in the coming days to clarify some (but probably not all) of these outstanding new-wave questions.

Is there an official source for having whoever the cargo was dumped on roll a die and receive a stress?

The rules for debris clouds are :

• After the “Check Pilot Stress” step, the ship receives one stress token.
• After the “Perform Action” step, it rolls one attack die. On a [crit] result, the ship suffers one critical damage.
• The ship can still perform attacks.

When the cargo is dropped on the ship, there is no "Check Pilot Stress", nor is there a "Perform Action" step.

But I seem to recall this discussion taking place already... I just can't remember if there was an official conclusion?

This discussion came up very vigorously in regards to tractor beam. I don't recall if there has been official classification but I think outside of being extremely particular it's pretty easy to see that the activation phase steps attached to those conditions are not requirements for them to apply but rather guidelines for how to apply those effects after a maneuver causes a collision.

The effects of asteroids are skipping actions, rolling for hit/crit, and not shooting if you're on it. The effects for debris are stress, rolling for crit, and being able to shoot if you're on it. The timings for applying these effects following a maneuver matters but the timings not immediately following a maneuver doesn't so it's not specified.

It's possible an faq will clarify this and it would be nice to solve arguments but it feels safe to apply stress and crit roll when the card says to immediately suffer the effects.

Debris aren't mines.

There was a rules clarification that covered tractor beams, but it was an adjustment to how TB worked and how the BR and Boost effects were used, and NOT an adjustment to the obstacles.

I maintain that there is NO effect other than obstructing shooting until a ship executes and/or completes a maneuver when a debris cloud is dropped directly on a ship. Obstacles require a ship in motion.

Debris aren't mines.

There was a rules clarification that covered tractor beams, but it was an adjustment to how TB worked and how the BR and Boost effects were used, and NOT an adjustment to the obstacles.

I maintain that there is NO effect other than obstructing shooting until a ship executes and/or completes a maneuver when a debris cloud is dropped directly on a ship. Obstacles require a ship in motion.

The rule card specifically states that if you drop the cloud on a ship, the effect of landing on debris are immediately resolved

I'm not going to get into this argument again, but it doesn't say that. The wording is unfortunately vague and open to interpretation, but nowhere does it say "that the effect of LANDING on debris" are immediately resolved. It says that it's effects are immediately applied. Debris effects are dependent on a ship executing/attempting a maneuver. When a ship is on a debris cloud at the start of its turn, it doesn't get a stress/roll for crit. It only does that if its maneuver template crosses the debris *again*, or if it finishes the maneuver on the field.

Your methodology would imply that if a could was dropped on a ship that hasn't moved yet, and if the movement template crossed it, then you'd roll for effects and take stress both when the field is deployed, as well as during movement. There is NO way that they intend for there to be two stresses and two crits to be handed out to one ship in the same non-combat phase from the same obstacle, especially one that doesn't go away at the end of combat like a mine does.

Damnit, I got into it again. Accuse me of "rules lawyering" all you want. It's still simply reading comprehension.

Can the new Seismic Torpedo blow up the Shadowcaster Debris cloud as it is considered an obstacle?

I'm not going to get into this argument again, but it doesn't say that. The wording is unfortunately vague and open to interpretation, but nowhere does it say "that the effect of LANDING on debris" are immediately resolved. It says that it's effects are immediately applied. Debris effects are dependent on a ship executing/attempting a maneuver. When a ship is on a debris cloud at the start of its turn, it doesn't get a stress/roll for crit. It only does that if its maneuver template crosses the debris *again*, or if it finishes the maneuver on the field.

Your methodology would imply that if a could was dropped on a ship that hasn't moved yet, and if the movement template crossed it, then you'd roll for effects and take stress both when the field is deployed, as well as during movement. There is NO way that they intend for there to be two stresses and two crits to be handed out to one ship in the same non-combat phase from the same obstacle, especially one that doesn't go away at the end of combat like a mine does.

Damnit, I got into it again. Accuse me of "rules lawyering" all you want. It's still simply reading comprehension.

I'm curious, do you also not roll for damage when you tractor beam someone onto an obstacle? Because the same wording is used there, and everybody I've ever met rolls for the damage.

I'm not going to get into this argument again, but it doesn't say that. The wording is unfortunately vague and open to interpretation, but nowhere does it say "that the effect of LANDING on debris" are immediately resolved. It says that it's effects are immediately applied. Debris effects are dependent on a ship executing/attempting a maneuver. When a ship is on a debris cloud at the start of its turn, it doesn't get a stress/roll for crit. It only does that if its maneuver template crosses the debris *again*, or if it finishes the maneuver on the field.

Your methodology would imply that if a could was dropped on a ship that hasn't moved yet, and if the movement template crossed it, then you'd roll for effects and take stress both when the field is deployed, as well as during movement. There is NO way that they intend for there to be two stresses and two crits to be handed out to one ship in the same non-combat phase from the same obstacle, especially one that doesn't go away at the end of combat like a mine does.

Damnit, I got into it again. Accuse me of "rules lawyering" all you want. It's still simply reading comprehension.

So if what you say is true and nothing happens when you drop the debris on another ship, why on earth would the rules insent say to resolve it's effects when it would do nothing?

Seems pretty clear that resolving the debris cloud effects entails gaining a stress and resolving the die roll regardless of how you ended up sitting on top of it

@ Zefirus - they faq/errata'd the tractor beam rules to specifically allow for the TB effect to move ships onto the obstacle. The fact that they errata'd the TB and not the obstacle rule is one of the reasons that my logic makes sense.

Again, in order for you to resolve something's effects, you must resolve it as it requires. Debris states that you must execute (not necessarily complete) a maneuver. TB allows BR and Boost onto obstacles, and specifically states that you treat it as a maneuver. Collision detector specifically allows you to BR/Decloak onto/across an obstacle, and ignore crit results.

If the debris tokens weren't persistent after being deployed, I could understand some intent for them to trigger, much like a mine does. But they aren't mines. They don't go away like prox mines or conner nets do. Which is why, at 1 point, something that deals twice the potential damage and guarantees twice the stress of a thermal detonator (which is 3 points), that **stays on the playfield** doesn't make ANY sense.

The rule card specifically states that if you drop the cloud on a ship, the effect of landing on debris are immediately resolved

No, it doesn't. It says that you resolve the effects immediately, not resolve the effects of landing on it. The only effects there are from *being* on a debris field is that you are obstructed, and that your target might be obstructed when firing. If I start my activation on a debris field, and my movement template doesn't cross it when I activate and maneuver, and I complete my maneuver off of the field, then nothing happens. The debris fields don't have "effects" other than to obstruct, unless you move across/onto them. Period.

@ Zefirus - they faq/errata'd the tractor beam rules to specifically allow for the TB effect to move ships onto the obstacle. The fact that they errata'd the TB and not the obstacle rule is one of the reasons that my logic makes sense.

Again, in order for you to resolve something's effects, you must resolve it as it requires. Debris states that you must execute (not necessarily complete) a maneuver. TB allows BR and Boost onto obstacles, and specifically states that you treat it as a maneuver. Collision detector specifically allows you to BR/Decloak onto/across an obstacle, and ignore crit results.

If the debris tokens weren't persistent after being deployed, I could understand some intent for them to trigger, much like a mine does. But they aren't mines. They don't go away like prox mines or conner nets do. Which is why, at 1 point, something that deals twice the potential damage and guarantees twice the stress of a thermal detonator (which is 3 points), that **stays on the playfield** doesn't make ANY sense.

You are wrong in almost all of your statements:

* Tractor Beam is not erratad to allow move into the obstacle. The original TB reference card already stated that. The errata added that the ship suffers the effect of the obstacle.

* Debris does not state that you must execute a maneuver. The original rules booklet did, but the TFA rules reference does not. It only says that overlapping the debris via maneuver triggers its effect, but does not say that is the only way to trigger it. (Edit: actually even the original rules booklet does not say that, it just explains what to do if you move into a debris cloud).

* TB states: "It is NOT an action or maneuver."

Also you forget, that thermal detonator causes a guaranteed 1 damage, while Debris field has only 1/8 chance.

There is NO way that they intend for there to be two stresses and two crits to be handed out to one ship in the same non-combat phase from the same obstacle, especially one that doesn't go away at the end of combat like a mine does.

Why wouldn't it be the intention?

1. The chances of those two crits are pretty low.

2. To do that in the same non-combat phase you have to do it against a ship that has a higher PS than you otherwise if the ship has already moved they won't have to do that until next round.

3. You have to place the debris cloud in a very specific location on top of an enemy that will have to then move out of it in the same non-combat phase.

4. Rigged Cargo Chute is an action, so this is done after your maneuver instead of before like a normal bomb making exact placement more difficult.

I feel like if you can manage to get two crits and two stress from one Rigged Cargo Chute in the same non-combat phase, more power to you!

Pretty much.

It's not trivial to use in practice - the token's huge, but you have to fly right past someone to be able to usefully drop it, and without repositioning actions and EI, or Burnout SLAM/ASLAM, it's not necessarily as easy as it seems to get it positioned correctly to drop on someone and have them go over it with the same move.

There is NO way that they intend

None of us actually know what they intend and to claim otherwise does nothing to help your argument.

It's still simply reading comprehension.

The errata for the Tractor Beam only adds "The ship suffers the effect of any obstacle it overlaps." If that means you take damage from being tractored over an asteroid or gain stress if tractored over a debris field then the same wording in the Shadowcaster rules would naturally lead to the same effect.

Correct, and for something to overlap, it has to move/be moving. As with TB. So TB does two things. One, it moves the ship in what is basically a boost or barrel roll (without it being either an action or a maneuver). That allows the ship to be moved onto the obstacle. Then the errata states that there are effects for that movement as if it overlapped. This clarification is due to the obstacle itself not having an effect if there wasn't movement involved (maneuver).

Edit- I really do see everyone's points, and I'm not afraid to admit that I might be wrong. There's certainly that chance (heck, maybe a pretty good one). But until that FAQ comes out, this one stinks of Gonk error to me.

Then the errata states that there are effects for that movement as if it overlapped.

But it doesn't actually say that for tractor beams. Again it says "The ship suffers the effect of any obstacle it overlaps."

You don't have to move to overlap something, something else can overlap you. For example Prox Mines don't require that the ship moves for it to be overlapped. Two ships can be overlapped even though only one of the moved.

So if you suffer all the effects of an asteroid or debris field when you've overlapped one due to a tractor beam, you would also suffer those same effects if you overlapped one because it was placed on top of a ship.

The wording for both effects are the same as far as I can tell, without having the rules from the Shadowcaster in front of me.

Here's my take...check out the reference card:

http://imgur.com/J9mSVEs

It says the effects happen immediately, yes. HOWEVER, there are two effects for overlapping debris:

-#1 Take a Stress after your "Check Pilot Stress" step

-#2 Roll atk die and on a crit result, suffer 1 critical damage.

To me, that's basically saying "resolves these effects immediately, one of which doesn't happen immediately." So my interpretation is no stress unless your template crosses it when performing a maneuver, but you always roll for damage; maneuver, TB, or a cargo token is dropped on you.

Personally, I can't see them allowing a game effect that gives you stress in the middle of the activation phase.