****CRAP - THE TITLE IS WRONG - DAWNBLADE! DAWNBLADE****

Couldn't find anything on this with the search feature or the FAQ.

I have Syndrael the Berserker and I just bought Whirlwind, which allows her to perform a melee attack that affects all adjacent monsters.

The next quest is the Dawnblade, a sword which grants the surge ability to "affect a second monster adjacent to you."

So if I whirlwind amongst a group of 4 monsters and get a surge, do I hit all 4 monsters once and one monster twice, or do I hit all 4 monsters twice, or do the abilities just overlap so that I hit all monsters once only?

I'm thinking option one, but I don't know if this has been ruled upon already.

nothing like an official answer, but since a same monster cannot be hit more than once by the same attack (like blast), I would say that you cannot affect a same monster with the whirlwind and the surge ability. So, choose between what you prefer !

For what it's worth, I believe what Rugal said is correct. It is the same as if you'd be attacking multiple targets with an attack with blast - there'd be no cascade effect and they'd be struck by it only once, each.

The surge on Dawnblade lets you surge to affect a second target adjacent to you - but with Whirlwind, everyone adjacent to you is already being affected by the attack. Nothing happens.

Still, this is an amazing weapon for a Berserker using Counter Attack or Execute. All you need is a way to practically guarantee a surge (achievable either with equipment or the abilities of other heroes, or by some heroes; not Syndrael, though), and suddenly you can potentially do an Execute with +4 (Syndrael's Stamina) damage and apply it to two monsters at once. Assuming you get two surges, we're talking a potential +7 damage to a blue, yellow and red dice pool, applied to two targets at once. Can't combine Whirlwind and the extra attack on Dawnblade, but Dawnblade combines just fine with Execute, dayum.

Counter-Attacks with Dawnblade will really make the Overlord think twice about positioning. Before, he risked losing a mook, but at least it costed the Berserker two stamina. If there's two adjacent monsters, he'd now risk losing both of them, and those two stamina in cost is suddenly well worth it for the Berserker.

Hitting all monsters twice with a single attack...

The heroes have ideas these days. Soon Overlords will be put on the list of endangered species.

Hitting all monsters twice with a single attack...

The heroes have ideas these days. Soon Overlords will be put on the list of endangered species.

Isn't it already the case ? Since the app comes to replace the almost long lost overlord ...

For what it's worth, I believe what Rugal said is correct. It is the same as if you'd be attacking multiple targets with an attack with blast - there'd be no cascade effect and they'd be struck by it only once, each.

The surge on Dawnblade lets you surge to affect a second target adjacent to you - but with Whirlwind, everyone adjacent to you is already being affected by the attack. Nothing happens.

Still, this is an amazing weapon for a Berserker using Counter Attack or Execute. All you need is a way to practically guarantee a surge (achievable either with equipment or the abilities of other heroes, or by some heroes; not Syndrael, though), and suddenly you can potentially do an Execute with +4 (Syndrael's Stamina) damage and apply it to two monsters at once. Assuming you get two surges, we're talking a potential +7 damage to a blue, yellow and red dice pool, applied to two targets at once. Can't combine Whirlwind and the extra attack on Dawnblade, but Dawnblade combines just fine with Execute, dayum.

Counter-Attacks with Dawnblade will really make the Overlord think twice about positioning. Before, he risked losing a mook, but at least it costed the Berserker two stamina. If there's two adjacent monsters, he'd now risk losing both of them, and those two stamina in cost is suddenly well worth it for the Berserker.

As I understand it, blast has a line in the rulebook that specifically limits it so that each figure can only be affected by BLAST once for that attack. There is no such line stating that attacks can only be applied once to each figure. In most situations, a single ability can only be used once per attack, such as surge: +1 damage. However, if you have multiple triggers for the same ability, such as with the Chipped Greataxe, you can use two surges to apply each of the identical surge abilities, stacking the results. Would it not be the same here? Whirlwind TARGETS each adjacent monster with the attack. If you roll a surge on Dawnblade, the attack AFFECTS a second monster adjacent to you. Taken together, the first target of the attack is resolved (including the surge ability) before the next target is taken into consideration. It's not the same ability, but two sources of the same effect. The +3 damage surge would trigger for the attack on each target, why would another surge ability not?

I agree, this is probably not what was intended, and likely an oversight, but I can't find a rule that would prevent my interpretation.

All is not about rules, and many of your questions are in the FAQ, or in the forum, here or BGG, and I assure you that FFG already stated on this one : a same attack cannot affect the same monster more than once.

for pit rule, same here : see FAQ, you will see that rules have changed.

Now, you're free to believe us or not, or do whatever you want ...

For what it's worth, I believe what Rugal said is correct. It is the same as if you'd be attacking multiple targets with an attack with blast - there'd be no cascade effect and they'd be struck by it only once, each.

The surge on Dawnblade lets you surge to affect a second target adjacent to you - but with Whirlwind, everyone adjacent to you is already being affected by the attack. Nothing happens.

Still, this is an amazing weapon for a Berserker using Counter Attack or Execute. All you need is a way to practically guarantee a surge (achievable either with equipment or the abilities of other heroes, or by some heroes; not Syndrael, though), and suddenly you can potentially do an Execute with +4 (Syndrael's Stamina) damage and apply it to two monsters at once. Assuming you get two surges, we're talking a potential +7 damage to a blue, yellow and red dice pool, applied to two targets at once. Can't combine Whirlwind and the extra attack on Dawnblade, but Dawnblade combines just fine with Execute, dayum.

Counter-Attacks with Dawnblade will really make the Overlord think twice about positioning. Before, he risked losing a mook, but at least it costed the Berserker two stamina. If there's two adjacent monsters, he'd now risk losing both of them, and those two stamina in cost is suddenly well worth it for the Berserker.

As I understand it, blast has a line in the rulebook that specifically limits it so that each figure can only be affected by BLAST once for that attack. There is no such line stating that attacks can only be applied once to each figure. In most situations, a single ability can only be used once per attack, such as surge: +1 damage. However, if you have multiple triggers for the same ability, such as with the Chipped Greataxe, you can use two surges to apply each of the identical surge abilities, stacking the results. Would it not be the same here? Whirlwind TARGETS each adjacent monster with the attack. If you roll a surge on Dawnblade, the attack AFFECTS a second monster adjacent to you. Taken together, the first target of the attack is resolved (including the surge ability) before the next target is taken into consideration. It's not the same ability, but two sources of the same effect. The +3 damage surge would trigger for the attack on each target, why would another surge ability not?

I agree, this is probably not what was intended, and likely an oversight, but I can't find a rule that would prevent my interpretation.

Rugal above me is correct. However, aside from the general ruling (which I know is not in the core rulebook), consider this:

Whirlwind allows you to perform an attack with a melee weapon, targeting all adjacent monsters. This is a single attack that just happens to target all adjacent monsters at once.

Dawnblade has a surge effect that allows you to surge to make the attack affect a second monster adjacent to you. Dawnblade doesn't give you an extra attack in any way, it merely allows you to affect a second monster that is adjacent to you.

However , all adjacent monsters are already affected by the Whirlwind attack. Thus, nothing happens.

This is why the dawnblade is a great weapon for warrior who does not focus on mass attacks.

It also works well on heroes that have counter attacks, like Tahlia's heroic feat...let the mook move in and attack you, but when the master's turn comes, retaliate! one surge and snicker-snack!

you leave them dead; and with their head

you go galumphing back.

I think next time I play Kindred Fire, I may try Tahlia as a Knight with Guard, just to see her do this everytime she gets attacked by a melee monster. Snicker-snack, movement points!

This is why the dawnblade is a great weapon for warrior who does not focus on mass attacks.

It also works well on heroes that have counter attacks, like Tahlia's heroic feat...let the mook move in and attack you, but when the master's turn comes, retaliate! one surge and snicker-snack!

you leave them dead; and with their head

you go galumphing back.

I think next time I play Kindred Fire, I may try Tahlia as a Knight with Guard, just to see her do this everytime she gets attacked by a melee monster. Snicker-snack, movement points!

I see the annoyance of a berserker that ends up with Dawnblade, I really do, because it's a let-down that you can't combine it with Whirlwind. But I would argue that this is largely psychological in nature, based on theoretical constructs rather than reality. In reality, the frequency of when this'll be an actual issue, where the berserker would've done a whirlwind hitting more than two people anyway, is likely rather rare. From that perspective, Dawnblade merely offers an alternative way to do what the berserker would've otherwise done with Whirlwind.

But aside from that, the berserker actually makes an extremely good class for using the Dawnblade. You mention heroes that have counter-attacks; but the berserker has the actual skill, Counter Attack . And the unmitigated awesome of Execute, provided you get two surges, is insane. Something I completely skipped over earlier was also the fact that bersekers have Weapon Mastery , which will guarantee that 1 surge - provided the berserker in question hauls around a second weapon, but that's easy.

Screw making Tahlia a Knight. Make her a berserker. Do that counter-attack with heroic feat, beat the ever-living snot out of those two monsters, collect 4 movement points from her hero ability, and move up to another two and Execute them!

This actually makes me have to ask a question regarding Tahlia: If Tahlia kills a monster outside of her own turn, does she have to spend those 2 movement points right away, or can she save them until the start of her turn (or is she maybe even forced to do so?).

You cannot save MP outside your turn. You've got to spend them immediately, or forfeit them.

You cannot save MP outside tour turn.

It's as I suspected, then.

You cannot save MP outside tour turn.

It's as I suspected, then.

It is a bit disheartening...but in a way, awesome too...

Nothing makes a more cheerful game than smacking two monsters into the ground, then moving 4 spaces closer to the objective... and not even on your turn! As an added bonus, as a skirmisher, I got to apply Keen Edge, Dual strike (to ensure that surge) to the attack, and then use Unrelenting for another attack and Born in battle to heal and recover fatigue...

In one quest, Tahlia got isolated away from the other heroes, and my allies were all "Hold on, we'll come and get you" and I said,"Just finish the objective you're going for... None of these two monster groups can touch me"

As an Overlord, I'd probably simply stop fielding weak foot soldiers, if at all possible. It'd be all Shadow Dragons and Ironbound and Chaos Beasts.

Right now I'm just imagining the strategic error of fielding Kobolds against a Berserker Tahlia. A whirlwind could easily murderstomp multiple kobolds and I'm picturing the horrorshow of Tahlia suddenly gaining 16 movement points at once.

As an Overlord, I must say I always use :

- Golems. Since heroes hit really strong, it's unavoidable.

- Demon lords to put them down the quicker

- Kobolds. The more they are, the more the heroes loses actions on them.

Shadow Dragon's shadow ability is not strong enough since it can't work on reach or ranged attack, Ironbound are really too slow, and Chaos beast have too weak defense. If only Chaos beast had the same ability for defense than for attack, I would love them so much !