Hobbie Klivian: When you acquire or spend a target lock, you may remove 1 stress token from your ship.

Rebel Captive: Once per round, the first ship that declares you as the target of an attack immediately receives 1 stress token.

If Hobbie is the first ship in a round to shoot at a ship with rebel captive with a weapon that requires spending a target lock as a cost to perform the attack, will he immediately remove the stress he receives?

My rambling attempt to resolve this conundrum:

I've looked at the attack flow chart, which lists the first step as "Declare Target step," but the "Declare Target step" has a substep within it called "declare the target of the attack..." and paying costs is WITHIN the "Declare Target step" but AFTER you "declare the target of the attack..." So in my mind, whether Hobbie gets to clear the stress depends on if Rebel Captive triggers at the conclusion of the "Declare Target step" or after the attacker "declares the target of the attack"... Thoughts?

Your rambling attempt at resolution is pretty spot on.

The real question is : When exactly does Rebel Captive trigger?

1. “Declare Target” step

i. Measure range to enemy ships and check

attacker's firing arc

ii. Attacker chooses weapon

iii. Declare target of the attack

A) Receive stress from Rebel Captive?

iv. Pay cost to perform the attack (if applicable)

v. Target of the attack becomes the defender

B) Receive stress from Rebel Captive?

Are there any other cards for which this makes a difference?


The closest I can think of is Latts Razzi (I underlined the 2 bits that are of interest to us):

"When a friendly ship declares an attack, you may spend a target lock you have on the defender to reduce its agility by 1 for that attack."

• If we suppose that Latts Razzi's "when a friendly ship declares an attack" is the same timing window as Rebel Captive's "the first ship that declares you as the target of an attack"...

• And we consider that Latts Razzi's ability requires a "defender"...

• Therefore Latts Razzi's ability must resolve after "the target of the attack becomes the defender" step...

• We must conclude that abilities that trigger on "declaring a target" happen at point B, ie: after paying the cost.

Based on the initial hypothesis... I would (very tentatively) say that, unfortunately, when Hobbie spends his TL to shoot his torpedo, he does not yet have the stress from Rebel Captive.

Unless someone thinks of a better rules justification either way, I'd email this one to FFG.

It seems pretty straight forward to me that A is the correct timing. I mean, step iii literally says to "Declare the target of the attack" and Rebel Captive says "the ship that declares you the target of an attack." With their attempts at nailing down timing on things, Rebel Captive should probably say "when a ship declares" or "when you are declared the target" to get that trigger word in there.

For B to be the correct timing, Rebel Captive would need to say something about its ship being a defender or defending against an attack.

For B to be the correct timing, Rebel Captive would need to say something about its ship being a defender or defending against an attack.

I'd agree. Rebel Captive says "declares you as the target of an attack" but doesn't say anything about being the defender. As such the trigger for the stress would be when that ship's declared the target of an attack.

That would mean it happens in step iii before you spend the TL token. So Hobbie would lose the stress.

The problem is that the entire sequence of sub-steps from i. to v. is called the “Declare Target” step.

It is therefore unclear if something that triggers when "a ship declares the target of an attack" is supposed to happen after:

• “Declare Target” step

or

• iii. Declare target of the attack

I'll freely admit that the Ratts Lazzi line of logic is very shaky... at best. But it's the best I could find.
Not many abilities rely on "when a ship declares the target of an attack"...

• “Declare Target” step

or

• iii. Declare target of the attack

I get your point but I think since step iii is called what it is, that's when something like Rebel Captive would trigger.

• “Declare Target” step

or

• iii. Declare target of the attack

I get your point but I think since step iii is called what it is, that's when something like Rebel Captive would trigger.

Yeah, that was my initial reaction as well.

Someone needs to ask FFG.

Well I'm happy I'm not the only one confused about this! A friend and I are having quite the debate about it... I know in Warmachine, Privateer Press has official people that monitor the rules forum and give official clarifications to issues like this... Does FFG not have something similar? I could email them if that's the way they deal with these situations. Your reasoning re Latts Razzi has appeal to me, especially given the FAQ that clarifies that Latts Razzi triggers "when a ship is declared as the target of an attack," making the wording that much more similar to Rebel Captive.

... the FAQ that clarifies that Latts Razzi triggers "when a ship is declared as the target of an attack," making the wording that much more similar to Rebel Captive.

I hadn't even noticed the FAQ entry for Latts had that wording - nice find.

Seems hard to make an argument where "when a ship is declared as the target of an attack" and "the first ship that declares you as the target" are 2 different timing windows...

Well I'm happy I'm not the only one confused about this! A friend and I are having quite the debate about it... I know in Warmachine, Privateer Press has official people that monitor the rules forum and give official clarifications to issues like this... Does FFG not have something similar? I could email them if that's the way they deal with these situations. Your reasoning re Latts Razzi has appeal to me, especially given the FAQ that clarifies that Latts Razzi triggers "when a ship is declared as the target of an attack," making the wording that much more similar to Rebel Captive.

FFG does have forum moderators, but they tend to only jump in when folks start abusing each other or things start getting too heated. I have yet to see them offer any form of contribution to a thread other than "Calm down or we'll lock the thread."

It would be nice if they jumped in to clear things up now and again, because the number of threads that go on for page after page debating things back and forth could be solved in an instant.

FFG's policy is to have people hash it out in the Rules Forums. If you don't find your answer there, then you contact FFG, and they eventually give you an answer.

... the FAQ that clarifies that Latts Razzi triggers "when a ship is declared as the target of an attack," making the wording that much more similar to Rebel Captive.

I hadn't even noticed the FAQ entry for Latts had that wording - nice find.

Seems hard to make an argument where "when a ship is declared as the target of an attack" and "the first ship that declares you as the target" are 2 different timing windows...

You left out a primary part of the wording from Latts Razzi:

"...you may spend a target lock you have on the defender..."

So Latts requires 2 distinct things to happen:

1) A friendly ship declaring an attack

2) Target of the attack must become the defender.

Rebel Captive only requires 1 thing:

"...the first ship that declares you as the target of an attack..."

Stress immediately is applied - BEFORE the cost of the attack is paid and before you become a defender.

Because the step in the timing sequence matches almost exactly the wording on the Rebel Captive card, I think it's hard to argue that anything else happens before stress is applied.

You left out a primary part of the wording from Latts Razzi:

"...you may spend a target lock you have on the defender..."

So Latts requires 2 distinct things to happen:

1) A friendly ship declaring an attack

2) Target of the attack must become the defender.

Rebel Captive only requires 1 thing:

"...the first ship that declares you as the target of an attack..."

Stress immediately is applied - BEFORE the cost of the attack is paid and before you become a defender.

Because the step in the timing sequence matches almost exactly the wording on the Rebel Captive card, I think it's hard to argue that anything else happens before stress is applied.

If I understand your argument correctly, your saying that since Latts requires a defender, this affects the timing of his ability?

If so, I could apply your logic to R4 Agromech... Since R4 Agromech requires a defender, it must resolve after the target of an attack becomes the defender, right?

"...you may spend a target lock you have on the defender..."

That is a condition / cost to use Latt's ability.

It absolutely does not affect the trigger / timing of Latt's ability.

Latts and Rebel Captive have the same trigger.

didnt the timing sequence in the new FAQ make it where you spend your cost for an attack (in this case the TL) before declaring a target, which is when Rebel Cap would trigger?

That was the reason the Aggromech died, because now they cant Deadeye into a TL because they have no target when they spend the Focus via Deadeye.

didnt the timing sequence in the new FAQ make it where you spend your cost for an attack (in this case the TL) before declaring a target, which is when Rebel Cap would trigger?

That was the reason the Aggromech died, because now they cant Deadeye into a TL because they have no target when they spend the Focus via Deadeye.

The new timing is :

1. “Declare Target” step

i. Measure range to enemy ships and check

attacker's firing arc

ii. Attacker chooses weapon

iii. Declare target of the attack

Some think Rebel Captive happens here

iv. Pay cost to perform the attack (if applicable)

R4 Agromech triggers here (when used with Deadeye) - no defender yet

Hobbie Klivian trigger here

v. Target of the attack becomes the defender

Latts Razzy trigger here

I think Rebel Captive happens here, since it has the same trigger as Latts

Edit: Added Deadeye precision to R4 Agromech.

You left out a primary part of the wording from Latts Razzi:

"...you may spend a target lock you have on the defender..."

So Latts requires 2 distinct things to happen:

1) A friendly ship declaring an attack

2) Target of the attack must become the defender.

Rebel Captive only requires 1 thing:

"...the first ship that declares you as the target of an attack..."

Stress immediately is applied - BEFORE the cost of the attack is paid and before you become a defender.

Because the step in the timing sequence matches almost exactly the wording on the Rebel Captive card, I think it's hard to argue that anything else happens before stress is applied.

If I understand your argument correctly, your saying that since Latts requires a defender, this affects the timing of his ability?

If so, I could apply your logic to R4 Agromech... Since R4 Agromech requires a defender, it must resolve after the target of an attack becomes the defender, right?

"...you may spend a target lock you have on the defender..."

That is a condition / cost to use Latt's ability.

It absolutely does not affect the trigger / timing of Latt's ability.

Latts and Rebel Captive have the same trigger.

R4 Agromech resolves during the Modify Attack dice step - as defined by the FAQ - after the defender has been defined - So the logic as applied to Latts appears to be the same. This is why you can't trigger R4 with spending a focus for a blaster turret or Deadeye fired ordinance.

I still stand by the concept that that Rebel Captive triggers immediately after step iii - BECAUSE is says nothing about the defender and happens when a declaration is made.

R4 Agromech resolves during the Modify Attack dice step - after the defender has been defined - Not sure how this relates.

I still stand by the concept that Latts will spend his target after steps iv and v and that Rebel Captive triggers immediately after step iii.

I was referring to the R4 Agromech + Deadeye combo that was so popularly used by U-Boats to fire a missile/torpedo with a focus and get a TL. Sorry, I thought that was obvious

You can stand by the concept, but if you don't have anything in the rules to support it...

R4 Agromech resolves during the Modify Attack dice step - after the defender has been defined - Not sure how this relates.

I still stand by the concept that Latts will spend his target after steps iv and v and that Rebel Captive triggers immediately after step iii.

I was referring to the R4 Agromech + Deadeye combo that was so popularly used by U-Boats to fire a missile/torpedo with a focus and get a TL. Sorry, I thought that was obvious

You can stand by the concept, but if you don't have anything in the rules to support it...

I modified my response after some thought before I read this comment, but after looking at R4 again - I think it reinforces my opinion.

With the recent FAQ updates, my understanding is that the R4/Deadeye combo was nerfed. Deadeye can no longer trigger R4, because Step v has not been completed. This is primarily due to the wording of the card, which includes "defender."

In the rules - Step iii is "Declare target of the attack"

The wording of Rebel Captive is "...the first ship that declares you as the target of an attack immediately receives 1 stress token."

Do not pass GO. Do not collect $200. Do not pay the cost to perform your attack. DO NOT do anything else until you get a stress token.

This is the part of the rules that supports my argument.

In the rules - Step iii is "Declare target of the attack"

The wording of Rebel Captive is "...the first ship that declares you as the target of an attack immediately receives 1 stress token."

Do not pass GO. Do not collect $200. Do not pay the cost to perform your attack. DO NOT do anything else until you get a stress token.

This is the part of the rules that supports my argument.

In that case, Latts Razzi's ability is broken.

• Latts Razzi's ability works
• Hobbie Klivian can counter Rebel Captive when firing a missile

You can't have both.

In the rules - Step iii is "Declare target of the attack"

The wording of Rebel Captive is "...the first ship that declares you as the target of an attack immediately receives 1 stress token."

Do not pass GO. Do not collect $200. Do not pay the cost to perform your attack. DO NOT do anything else until you get a stress token.

This is the part of the rules that supports my argument.

In that case, Latts Razzi's ability is broken.

"Latts Razzi’s ability is used when a ship is declared as the target of an attack."

If this happens after Step iii as you think, then there is no defender yet... which makes Latts ability literally useless.

Pick one:

• Latts Razzi's ability works
• Hobbie Klivian can counter Rebel Captive when firing a missile

You can't have both.

Sure you can.

Latts ability triggers at step 3 and the cost is paid after step 5.

Rebel Captive triggers immediately after step 3

Hobbie triggers during step 4.

Steps can happen between abilities on cards that work together.

This is why you can nest Experimental Interface inside Push the Limit and get 3 actions and 2 stress.

Part of the problem here is that FFG has the same wording for the overall "Declare Target" Step and one of the required events inside that Step: "iii. Declare target of the attack." This leaves it up to us to try to interpret until FFG makes a ruling or updates the FAQ. this especially becomes problematic when an upgrade card uses the same wording as what is in the rules and FAQ.

My interpretation is that as soon as you announce what the target is - you get the stress from Rebel Captive - before you spend the target lock - in the middle of the process.

Your Interpretation appears to be that a Target is not declared until after you pay the cost and fully complete the entire Declare Target Step.

I can't say you're absolutely wrong, but I think it's fair to say that my interpretation is reasonable as well.

Latts ability triggers at step 3 and the cost is paid after step 5.

That is DEFINITELY wrong. Literally no other card in the game works this way...

Once you start resolving an ability, you resolve the whole thing. You can interrupt it if you trigger another ability (like PTL and EI), but there is absolutely no way you trigger it and pay cost later...

If you could, why wouldn't R4 Agromech/Deadeye work by saying "It triggers after step iv, but resolves after step v." ???

You are clearly coming at this question with a preconceived notion that Hobbie Klivian should counter Rebel Captive and are distorting the rules to find some weird way to make it work.

You haven't offered any actual evidence from the rules to support your position.

You are clearly coming at this question with a preconceived notion that Hobbie Klivian should counter Rebel Captive and are distorting the rules to find some weird way to make it work.

You haven't offered any actual evidence from the rules to support your position.

I don't know how else to state it.

Rebel Captive activates when somebody declares you as a target - which is stated as part iii.

Hobbie activates when you spend a target lock, which happens as part iv.

I am simply justifying why it will work - BASED on the written words in the rules, FAQ and cards.

If that's not evidence enough, I'm not sure what is.

You are bringing in Latts and R4 - which have totally different wording and trying to justify why it will not work.

We disagree - So if you want to satisfy the argument - send the question to FFG and let Frank Brooks settle it.

Latts and Rebel Captive have the same wording for their trigger...

And yes, I did submit the Rules Question form.

I think the best thing is to email FFG and find out. If no one else wants to, I'll do it.

I think the best thing is to email FFG and find out. If no one else wants to, I'll do it.

I just did.

You might as well do it too, might get them to answer faster