Hi all

I was hoping for a little advice on the use of Destiny Points... My campaign has been running for almost a year now & we're all loving the system! My only problem is that as a group (myself included) we tend to totally forget about the Destiny Points. We generate then at the beginning of each session but then just leave them in the middle of the table... Only remembering them when it's time to put the dice back into the bag.

So has anybody any advice/ideas on how to use them & also how remind us that they exist

I've tried using them to increase the difficulty of my players skill checks but what tends to happen then is they just flip it back to boost their roll (grrrrr)!

Any help/advice would be very much appreciated as always

If I remember well and if we take a strict approach to the rule, the acting player has first to decide if they use one destiny point or not. Then as GM you can react. So when a player is acting, he cannot decide to use a destiny point after you decided to do so.

Still it's not a problem if they flip back because when you use a destiny point, it means that there should be a red die, so a chance of despair. They can also have a chance of triumph but that would not cancel the despair.

Otherwise, I think it's nice as GM to use them when they are in a situation that you know is difficult. For example, Han Solo and Chewie having to fly a Lambda shuttle in front of the Imperials. The GM wants to make this situation particularly stressful, so a destiny point is used and they have to roll a red die. Ooops, a despair is roll. Actually Dark Vador was there on the bridge and felt Luke.

To quibble, it's not an increase in difficulty, it's an upgrade. It's the only way for the GM to insert the chance of a Despair on an otherwise mundane roll. Even shooting at minions should sometimes cause problems. Despairs are fun, so you should enjoy using them One thing they might be afraid of is that Despair, so if you're exaggerating their effect you might need to tone it down.

My players did the same thing at first, not understanding that they weren't cancelling the Despair, which I finally had to explain: Triumphs and Despairs don't cancel. It helped that when they used them, I wouldn't flip one in response...helps break the pattern. Their next tactic was to try and lock me out...let me use them up, then sit on the pool, to which I finally had to threaten to just flip them all back over and they'd have nothing...GM fiat, etc.

One other thing I do is encourage their use for non-rolling situations.

PC: "We need to go into the sewers, did anyone bring a flashlight?"

Me: "I don't know," I say, tapping the pool, "did you?"

It does take a little work, but it's worth it IMHO.

I'll second the "Use Destiny Points for more than just upgrading dice".

It takes vigilance on your behalf, but it's worth it:

Perhaps you feel you need some reinforcements, Flip a Destiny point as you introduce them, it sets a certain tone for the Players. They understand that this is the Force working against them this time, but it will swing back in their favour next time.

Or possibly your favourite Nemesis is about to be caught by the PC's, flip a DP for them to reveal their getaway plan.

Maybe you need an NPC to know something about the PC's that they probably shouldn't, mid negotiations flip yourself a DP and reveal the unexpected knowledge.

Basically any time you want to introduce a Plot twist is a good time to flip a DP. It's important to know you don't HAVE to do it, but by flipping a DP your gaining Players trust and getting their buy in.

Now all this can go the other way too, Players should feel free to introduce facts into the narrative with their own Destiny Points.

I don't think there's a magic answer you just have to get in the habit. The easiest way I think to get PCs to use them is to force yourself to use them. Once you have some success using them they'll likely want to.

I don't know how experienced your PCs are but as they amass Talents that use a DP to activate that will encourage more use. When I am using a Bola if I can turn a green into a yellow with one I always do because the Triumph result with those is a nutcrusher.

I've found asking players if they want to spend one before they roll to be helpful in encouraging their use. Additionally, suggesting things for which they could be used (you know, a Slicer Kit is only a Destiny Point away...) is another good way to encourage their use.

Worst case scenario, use them yourself and players might get the idea that they might want to use them as well to balance things.

Concur with much of the advice here. "Oh man, did we bring <INSERT RIGHT TOOL FOR THE JOB>? I don't know..." "Well, for a light side point you did" gets people in the habit really quickly, in my experience. My players ask me if they can have things for a light side point all the time, and I rarely say no (those few nos are usually them being asses anyway ). We have flips for dice pools when I want the possibility of despair, but that's been rarer lately than just using them for lots of random, more interesting things.

It's important to know you don't HAVE to do it, but by flipping a DP your gaining Players trust and getting their buy in.

That's the best advice I've seen here so far. Using dark side destiny points for all kinds of 'bad stuff' has done loads of good for making sure the players feel they are never being railroaded or forced, and that we're all playing by the same rules. It's hard to be perfect about it, but when it works it works really well!

I'll second the "Use Destiny Points for more than just upgrading dice".

It takes vigilance on your behalf, but it's worth it:

Perhaps you feel you need some reinforcements, Flip a Destiny point as you introduce them, it sets a certain tone for the Players. They understand that this is the Force working against them this time, but it will swing back in their favour next time.

Or possibly your favourite Nemesis is about to be caught by the PC's, flip a DP for them to reveal their getaway plan.

Maybe you need an NPC to know something about the PC's that they probably shouldn't, mid negotiations flip yourself a DP and reveal the unexpected knowledge.

Basically any time you want to introduce a Plot twist is a good time to flip a DP. It's important to know you don't HAVE to do it, but by flipping a DP your gaining Players trust and getting their buy in.

Now all this can go the other way too, Players should feel free to introduce facts into the narrative with their own Destiny Points.

So, I've (finally) gotten the PCs (most sessions) to spend DPs to tweak the storyline in their favor. Example: GM: "The Imp patrol is approaching the alleyway where you are hiding." PC: "Is there a door nearby?" GM: "There MIGHT be... (raise eyebrows)"

BUT - how FAR should simply flipping a DP to change the scene go? For instance: if the PCs carelessly overlook taking the time to conceal some contraband loot on their way back to their base or patron, should the GM add a RED die to their next astrogation check for a CHANCE of an encounter with a Customs patrol on the far side..? OR, does simply flipping a DP and having that bad thing OCCUR (without a chance of avoidance) seem a bit rail-roady? Interested in thoughts on that.

- GM Khyrith

I’ve flipped DPs and then just had things occur as a result. I don’t think that’s “rail-roady” at all.

I’ve also just flipped DPs with nothing tied to them, just to make the players wonder what’s going on.

And when the effluent really seriously hits the fan (like they accidentally kill the guy they’re supposed to rescue and right in front of the bad guys), I have flipped multiple DPs at the same time.

For very risky tasks I'll sometimes upgrade a check without even flipping a DP, in higher XP games this can be a great way to allow a check to be passable, but still have the possibility of something very bad happening. I really think upgrading a dice with a DP is the most boring use of the DP, after all I can flip a DP any time to get the plot twist of a Despair.

But how far can you let a Despair or Triumph go? That's a hard line to draw. I try make complications with them, but not make a task impossible. I would also recommend never directly reversing the effects of a PC's successful actions with a DP:

GM: "You picked the lock!" Flips a DP "Well there's another more complex lock behind it..." that's just bad.

I would also like to point out that if PC's forgot something for their away mission, that they already own, then that's a good time for them to use a DP. If they DON'T own the item then flipping a DP doesn't necessarily give it to them for free, unless the item is purely narrative then I would recommend asking them to pay the credits for said item. The Utility Belt talent is the way to get free stuff with a DP.

So some common GM uses of a DP:

Modifying the scene to disadvantage the PC's; adding difficult terrain, putting elevation in where it wasn't before, providing new cover to some NPC's, placing 'roadblocks' such as traffic or a blast door.

Giving an NPC some equipment they didn't obviously have before hand, nothing too powerful, but useful in there opposition to the PC's.

The getaway, NPC ducks through a door, by the time the PC's get there all they see is a speeder disappearing down the street... or they see nothing at all.

Reinforcements, again nothing too powerful, a couple more minion squads, or a third party opposing both sides. But for a high tension encounter you can do this a couple of times over a series of rounds.

Yeah, if the task is inherently risky, I will add upgrade the difficulty as I feel appropriate, before flipping any DPs.

I try to get the base difficulty of a task defined with all upgrades, setbacks, etc… before considering any other monkey-wrench type ideas I might have which would typically require a DP flip.

Cheers again for the advice Forum goers Our next gaming session is an all dayer this coming Saturday so that'll give me plenty of opportunity to put these into practice

In my group I have a bit of another problem with destiny points:

The use of destiny points is no problem, they use them, I use them and so on. But me and my players don't have the feeling to be working with some kind of "resource" you have to handle.

From my perspective, you’ve reached the point where most of the rest of us are trying to get to — DPs should be a free-flowing resource that are frequently used by both sides.

Most people seem to have problems where DPs are over-valued and therefore infrequently used, which reduces or eliminates liquidity in that resource.

So, I don’t actually see your situation as a problem that needs to be solved.

I see it more as the place where I and my players would want to be, if we could manage to somehow get there.

The problem in our case is that using destiny points seems pointless in a lot of cases, especially for my players.

If you would like to you could use them on every roll, knowing that by gaining a big advantage by doing so the other side will start using it too giving you the points back right away. This allows you again to use them nearly all the time and so on.

It is rarely the case that someone still says "Well, this roll is important, I use a destiny point to give us a better chance" but rather "Well let us just use the points for nearly everything because who cares? Could give us a triumph. And the moment the gm starts throwing upgrades or other things at us we will be able to counter that quite easily, because we get the points right after he used them."

Effectively with a pool of 1 dark/1 light you could, for example, just upgrade all rolls on both sides for the whole session.

And, as said before, as long as the other side has at least one destiny point left on their side, they are able to "counter" every upgrade on rolls by upgrading their side as well. And after that? Nothing changed and the same thing can repeat infinitely. "Saving up" destiny points doesn't seem to result in an advantage for either side.

My players were quite sad when they realized that they could not really use the destiny points in any tactical way. Because whenever they piled them up to boost them in crucial situations, the GM was always able to counter by using the points against them.

edit:

Summed up:

- You could upgrade every roll made on both sides which won't change the destiny pool at all -> boring, why would you do that? But it is possible. And if the other side upgrades and you can too without changing a thing? Why wouldn't you?

- Piling up the destiny points has no effect because you can only get an advantage for one roll (under the condition that the other side got down to 0 destiny points) -> Frustrating and nothing like "the light side is strong at the moment"

- On important rolls my group often says "Just upgrade, he will do so too and if he does nothing will change on the destiny pool" -> nearly pointless to upgrade rolls because both sides just do it

- The fluctuation of the destiny points results in destiny points being available for both sides for nearly every roll or every situation where you would like to use them narratively. -> a resource that is available at all times is not really needed

Only way to make those things impossible: Hoard all destiny points on your side. Which is no fun if there are 7 destiny points in play but you forcefully restrict the game to only use 1 effectively because you will never give away more than one of them.

There are, of course, exceptions.

You don't have to hoard them yourself, that's just the opposite extreme. Maybe if you use them slightly less, they'll become more important. You can also avoid using them if your situations include enough risk to justify an upgrade without using a DP. For example, climbing a ladder might be Easy (P), but climbing a ladder near a wasp nest might also be Easy, but upgraded automatically ®. You didn't spend a DP, but there is still the chance of despair (and greater chance of threat).

Ultimately you can judge the flow for yourself and adjust your own usage accordingly.

Edit: one more thing about DPs: if there are none available in their pool, and you flip one, they can't use that same DP to flip it back in the same round. So the end-points of the pool aren't as flexible as it might seem.

Whafrog is correct.

From the CRB, you convert the destiny point to/from light to dark AFTER the action is resolved.

So if both the PC and the GM want to upgrade a check, you need at least 1 light and 1 dark point to do so.

Yep I know about the rule that a destiny point spent on an action can not used by the other side on the same action. And the rules also give you a clear order which side has to announce the use of a destiny point first and which is second (for rolls).

You can also avoid using them if your situations include enough risk to justify an upgrade without using a DP. For example, climbing a ladder might be Easy (P), but climbing a ladder near a wasp nest might also be Easy, but upgraded automatically ®. You didn't spend a DP, but there is still the chance of despair (and greater chance of threat).

I might try this. But I am afraid it might look like just avoiding the use of a destiny point so they won't get one but still giving them the negative result as if I had used one. But if they think so I will just talk to them about it.

Still, the bad feeling stays at my side that a frequent use of destiny points, as advised by the rules, results in being able to spend them all the time.

Still, the bad feeling stays at my side that a frequent use of destiny points, as advised by the rules, results in being able to spend them all the time.

And for me, I still think that this is the desired state that all the rest of us should aim to achieve, if we’re lucky.

When players and GMs are not afraid to spend DPs freely, I think that definitely helps the game be just that much more awesome.

But, as GM, you should definitely be able to give them red dice in their pool based solely on the nature of the situation they’re currently facing and the potential negative side effects of a disaster.

IMO, you climb that ladder over a pit of spikes, and there won’t be any DP flip required to put some red dice in your pool.

The other part of the solution is to use opposed checks more often, so that the PCs more frequently come up with situations where they naturally have red dice in their pool simply because the NPC has non-zero attributes and a few ranks of skill.

You might do this only against Nemesis NPCs, but it should happen at least on occasion.