PT, definitely the Demo RS is a strong combo, I wasn't saying there isn't other good combos verse the bombers. I'm not a huge squadron fan so I'm trying to find the right balance of a fighter screen that will be able to keep my big ships alive long enough to blow up the enemies fleet. The thing with RS is that it hurts your damage output with Demo on ships with no black rerolls so I'm not sure if it's worth it. Always a trade off. The Glad 2 I think will be a great option as well.

All true, in this case this was the only combo that I can think of that can reliably alpha strike Jan with escorts from far away (and yes, Demo is obviously a GSD2 for this build). (1 Damage Mittel, 1 avg after brace IG, 1 avg Demo shot, 1 RS damage)

You have it right Dras.

However, instead of needing to prevent the enemy engaging Mauler at distance 1 before you pull of FCT....

You have to make sure the obstacles are perfectly placed to give you multiple Mauler waiting points so the enemy cant stop you.

Howlrunner, Mauler, Int, IG-88. Jan dies. EVERY time. Don't even really need IG half the time.

Depends on spacing. If you dont have Jan directly with the YT's but in the back about distance 2 or a bit closer to the YT's you can force those 6 squadrons to rush into the grinder. Only IG will get to attack Jan and wont likely kill her. If you watch the distances properly, you can even force Mauler to only hit the YT's. Placement is vital

You have it right Dras.

However, instead of needing to prevent the enemy engaging Mauler at distance 1 before you pull of FCT....

You have to make sure the obstacles are perfectly placed to give you multiple Mauler waiting points so the enemy cant stop you.

Which you set up with Grav Shift. That's what I was missing.

Thank you

You have it right Dras.

However, instead of needing to prevent the enemy engaging Mauler at distance 1 before you pull of FCT....

You have to make sure the obstacles are perfectly placed to give you multiple Mauler waiting points so the enemy cant stop you.

Which you set up with Grav Shift. That's what I was missing.

Thank you

but why?

guess im still not following, but what about just moving and engaging at the very first opportunity, rather than moving to wait for an fct move?

Mauler/IG-88 and a Glad-II Demolisher looks like a fun set-up. Sure, you could alpha Jan at some point, but if we are looking at a squadron blob, can it trade out Jan for those two, and how many additional squads would you need to hold the bombers in place? Wouldn't a list like Ginkapo's recent tournament winner concede Jan to the enemy? After all, it just took more bombers instead of Escort, and Yavaris extends the anti-squadron a bit both from the clear double-taps and from any two dice AS shots it takes. And if the opponent brings double Intel (and they should at this point), that still leaves bombers capable of hitting ships. For that matter, when Demolisher swings around to AS and RS, how much is left to RS at the time? Or for a build like mine that can generate 20 AS from just the squadrons, can we happily trade Jan for IG-88, Mauler, and perhaps 2-3 additional squads that are brought in? Maybe I just need to sleep on it and look at it again tomorrow night.

Thanks for the lovely enlightening discussion and the outstanding contributors.

Mauler/IG-88 and a Glad-II Demolisher looks like a fun set-up. Sure, you could alpha Jan at some point, but if we are looking at a squadron blob, can it trade out Jan for those two, and how many additional squads would you need to hold the bombers in place?

Of course it can. This build was done to answer the question "how to alpha strike Jan" that was raised above in the topic. For the real world build I would likely bring a lot of TIE Bombers instead to kill those BWings.

Howlrunner, Mauler, Int, IG-88. Jan dies. EVERY time. Don't even really need IG half the time.

Depends on spacing. If you dont have Jan directly with the YT's but in the back about distance 2 or a bit closer to the YT's you can force those 6 squadrons to rush into the grinder. Only IG will get to attack Jan and wont likely kill her. If you watch the distances properly, you can even force Mauler to only hit the YT's. Placement is vital

Yes, placement IS vital... for both sides.

To be sure, this may not work perfectly against YOU, who many would consider a very good player.

The only thing with Mauler and FCT is Mauler has to be unengaged period, Intel or not and within distance 1 of targets you want him to hit. I think it would be hard to pull off having Mauler at distance 1 of many targets or Jan and getting the combo. Nice idea but I think it wouldn't work most of the time because you will either be outside of distance 1 for the FCT or already engaged. Even if you use Dengar to make those squadrons heavy, he is still engaged so you can't FCT.

It doesn't have to work all of the time, it is just extra fun, addressing his comment is all. It always works if you have initiative and move your squadrons last the turn before. If opponent is moving last then I will set him out there, just out of their FCT/Move/shoot range on turn 1, just as a deterrent.

Some good ideas here. Wondering if there are solutions that are reliable that Don't require a heavy squadron investment? I like squadrons, but for the purpose of continuing the conversation, how about other strategies?

I'm considering Flight Controllers on an ISD with 4 Tie/I for my anti squad capabilities. And Gunnery Team works well too because I can always hit bombers if I want.

Some good ideas here. Wondering if there are solutions that are reliable that Don't require a heavy squadron investment? I like squadrons, but for the purpose of continuing the conversation, how about other strategies?

The Key Word is "reliable".

So, no.

Without squadrons of your own, you are having to rely on raw speed and positioning to stay out of the range of bombers, and yet, in range of your own guns to target... Either through a vicious powerful alpha-strike that removes their carriers and lets you scoot off without being bogged down... Or by plinking them at range.

Both options are counter-intuitive to each other (which doesn't allow you to plan to have both as options at the same time, and just pick on the battlefield), and both put a lot of their success on what the enemy is planning and capable of doing.

So, No. Unfortunately. There isn't really any reliable means, other than taking squadrons of your own.

That's not to say there isn't means - I mean, Raiders with OE for the Empire, or TRC Vettes for the Rebels - they tend to either completely obliterate or completely ignore enemy squadrons, by not playing their games.

But they're not reliable unless you are completely and utterly invested. There's no way to just plug one in to a usual list and call it reliable.

A Moderate Squadron Investment, in the right places, will get you a lot of headway against an enemy who is heavily investing, but you need to be on the ball with positioning and pick your squadrons well. Fail at that, and your squadrons are points.

A Light or Token Squadron Investment may buy you time. Precious, precious, precious time, but little else but feed your enemy points.

I hope there never is a reliable way to always kill squads, otherwise why would you ever run squads?

Tycho, just tycho

And fast ships. Play it right and you need him for one turn only

I hope there never is a reliable way to always kill squads, otherwise why would you ever run squads?

armada without squadrons sounds like a dream come true to me

I hope there never is a reliable way to always kill squads, otherwise why would you ever run squads?

armada without squadrons sounds like a dream come true to me

Nah doesn't seem like Star Wars without Ties and X-Wings. Would just be ships moving around at that point. Plus, fighters have always played a huge role in Star Wars.

I hope there never is a reliable way to always kill squads, otherwise why would you ever run squads?

armada without squadrons sounds like a dream come true to me

As they are implemented, I agree, my dream games are little to no squads. The games play so much more smoothly without them, or with very few.

When 2 sides have 100+ points of squadrons the game becomes a micro-game of Operation the boardgame from 1965, and games take more than double the amount of time. It's unfortunate because I like the idea of squads but not the way they kill the flow of the game. I dread facing a fleet full of squads, complicated even more when I have the same. I feel like we spend 90% of our time fiddling around with moving squads, setting them aside to move ships, calculating escort/heavy/intel/counter/activations/bleh........, and then time is up and we haven't played 6 turns. With even more squadron keyqords coming up this may get even more cumbersome. Not good.

I have completely the opposite problem

But that's because a lot of my opponents will tend to suffer from analysis paralysis, which sets in the moment they pick up the maneuver tool.

So the more times they have to do that a Turn, the longer everything takes. Plus the all-ship fleets have tended, thusfar to be more on the fragile glass-cannon side of things, so there is an inordinate amount of slow-playing done while the decision is made even to activate which of their 5+ ships first.

I'm quick with Squadrons. Not an issue for me.

i have to admit I exaggerate by saying my dream would be NO squadrons, but i would definitely not mind if i never faced a squadron heavy list again. I already play X-Wing, I'm getting my starfighter fix. Maybe if the squadron point limit was lower or something it wouldn't irk me as much.

Oh well, people get to enjoy the game the way they want to. I'll deal.

Yea I've never had much problem with activating squads or moving them. Maybe because I plan ahead and I know my activation order depending on what can survive and what I should be able to kill. My games go fairly quick, about 90 minutes on average.

I don't play X-Wing so I love having my squads buzzing around my ships before I launch them forward. It is very satisfying to get that one-two punch in, even with 2 bombers.

Some good ideas here. Wondering if there are solutions that are reliable that Don't require a heavy squadron investment? I like squadrons, but for the purpose of continuing the conversation, how about other strategies?

Dras covered it well above but the answer is "no there is no reliable method of countering a heavy bomber approach without at least a moderate investment in squadrons." If you're running Imperials, you can afford 6 squadrons of TIEs for a very affordable 48 points. If you're running Rebels, I'd recommend a 3 X-Wing+Jan Ors blob for 58. Neither of those will survive a dedicated maxed-out squadron counterattack but their point isn't to survive - it's to do enough damage to stop the bombers from meaningfully impacting the game and to pin those bombers in place long enough for your flak to start adding up. Relying purely on flak, particularly with fleets who don't have dedicated flak ships (Raiders with Ordnance Experts; Nebulon-B Escorts + Torryn, etc.) is not reliable and often gets to be very ugly. The combination of fighters and flak, however, has a lot of synergy and is highly recommended.

Im glad others are having success with intercepters. I get minimal damage and they get one shotted. Love me 10 tie fighters though. Sent 5 @ a time via flight controllers over 2 turns is one of my favs.

I have completely the opposite problem

But that's because a lot of my opponents will tend to suffer from analysis paralysis, which sets in the moment they pick up the maneuver tool.

So the more times they have to do that a Turn, the longer everything takes. Plus the all-ship fleets have tended, thusfar to be more on the fragile glass-cannon side of things, so there is an inordinate amount of slow-playing done while the decision is made even to activate which of their 5+ ships first.

I didnt know you played Tirion too!

I have completely the opposite problem

But that's because a lot of my opponents will tend to suffer from analysis paralysis, which sets in the moment they pick up the maneuver tool.

So the more times they have to do that a Turn, the longer everything takes. Plus the all-ship fleets have tended, thusfar to be more on the fragile glass-cannon side of things, so there is an inordinate amount of slow-playing done while the decision is made even to activate which of their 5+ ships first.

I didnt know you played Tirion too!

It really is grueling making some of those moves. The CR90B swarm is the worst list I've ever played for this, because not only are you a glass canon that requires precision flying on a crowded board, but you are super dependent on getting those double arcs to focus your fire and overwhelm the defense tokens, because that's the only way you're going to put out hull damage.