The point isn't necessarily for the squints to survive. The point is to kill enemy bombers and trade up. So, your ships don't die to those bombers while they kill enemy ships.

In a vacuum:

4 TIE Interceptors: 44 points.

4 bwings: 56 points

All squints getting thrown in in one activation: 9.5 damage. Within reason to kill 2 bwings.

2 bwings shoot back and kill an interceptor while taking damage.

You are now up 28-11 and likely to swing it to a final 56-22 or 56-33 trade and your ships pound enemy ships.

Yes, they died. But they bought you that time to get after the ships.

Not when you start adding in Jan Ors or Escorts like YT-1300's

He did specify "in a vacuum", after all.

Interesting question.

I've certainly spent some time thinking over the question in the last few days and have been building a couple of lists that would counter my own bomber list (and other lists like it) from my recent tournament victory.

On initiative: I don't know what other lists are bringing for initiative, but its very hard to take it from mine, and I know Ginkapo's similar list ran an equally aggressive initiative bid. If you've got a bomber list, you generally want the initiative bid and first player because you really do want to remove something major with a powerful first activation on the turn that the ships make contact. So I don't think saying "interceptors and initiative" is a complete answer. Jan will definitely lower the damage done by Interceptors on their strike. If the enemy has a very powerful alpha and you need to burn both braces to keep the damage down, then you burn the braces to keep the damage down. That's just the nature of some match-ups.

I won't speak at length for Imperial answers since I only play them about 20% of the time. For Rebel answers, I think you can go a couple of directions. First, someone mentioned Gallant Haven above. One of our state regional champions has been running Gallant Haven as his primary list for a very long time. It never stopped being good, it just passed out of the limelight for a while. Its still very good. Second, I think 2 ship AS and AS upgrades are frequently overlooked. The default answer has always been to answer squads with squads. I'd say a 2 blue from Yavaris' side is a bit of an afterthought in an already bomber-centric list. The 2 black on a Liberty Battle Cruiser and the 2 blue on an AFMK-II-A need to be thrown into this conversation. I think you still need something in the way of squads to hold up the enemy while your ships shoot, and to help with placement at the start of the game, but there's not a huge need to go all out on squads. AS upgrades are definitely meta dependent, and while it can feel frustrating if your opponent brings little to no squads, in a heavy squadron meta. Example: PDR: It becomes point efficient at the moment that you take your sixth anti-squadron shot, assuming 2 blue dice. So if your opponent has brought tons of squads, its going to end up being more point efficient than just taking another squad. Cluster Bombs: if they're bringing Intel to bypass your squads, you can damage a key squad severely before finishing them with either AS fire from ships or your own squads. Third, A-wings are still very good fighters, and adding Toryn to them gives you a reroll on both the main attack and on any counter rolls. BCC has made people happy with bombers, but statistically speaking, there's still nothing wrong with the old anti-squadron non-bomber standbys.

In short, the nature of a list building game is figuring out how you can do enough in one area of the game while still spending substantially fewer points in it, while then overloading the opponent on another area. There are several ways to do this, but if the opponent is going to throw all of his eggs into the bomber squadron basket, you'd better have a clear plan to beat it.

He did specify "in a vacuum", after all.

Pshaw, here comes Dras ruining all of our fun by pointing out that words mean things. Back to the rules sub-forum with you! Words are a crutch!

The point isn't necessarily for the squints to survive. The point is to kill enemy bombers and trade up. So, your ships don't die to those bombers while they kill enemy ships.

In a vacuum:

4 TIE Interceptors: 44 points.

4 bwings: 56 points

All squints getting thrown in in one activation: 9.5 damage. Within reason to kill 2 bwings.

2 bwings shoot back and kill an interceptor while taking damage.

You are now up 28-11 and likely to swing it to a final 56-22 or 56-33 trade and your ships pound enemy ships.

Yes, they died. But they bought you that time to get after the ships.

Not when you start adding in Jan Ors or Escorts like YT-1300's

But if we're negating the vacuum, let's not forget Howl, swarm, Dengar, and flight controllers (I'm thinking the other unnamed assumption for an alpha strike is a squadron command, which can be supplemented with FCs and sorta negates the pure vacuum aspect anyways)

He did specify "in a vacuum", after all.

Pshaw, here comes Dras ruining all of our fun by pointing out that words mean things. Back to the rules sub-forum with you! Words are a crutch!

you can use fighter screens, but in my case I use X-Wings with the B-Wings, and if I Yavaris the X-Wings, I can kill several tie fighters pretty easily. Once I got lucky and killed 3 squads in one yavaris activation.

The point isn't necessarily for the squints to survive. The point is to kill enemy bombers and trade up. So, your ships don't die to those bombers while they kill enemy ships.

In a vacuum:

4 TIE Interceptors: 44 points.

4 bwings: 56 points

All squints getting thrown in in one activation: 9.5 damage. Within reason to kill 2 bwings.

2 bwings shoot back and kill an interceptor while taking damage.

You are now up 28-11 and likely to swing it to a final 56-22 or 56-33 trade and your ships pound enemy ships.

Yes, they died. But they bought you that time to get after the ships.

Not when you start adding in Jan Ors or Escorts like YT-1300's

But if we're negating the vacuum, let's not forget Howl, swarm, Dengar, and flight controllers (I'm thinking the other unnamed assumption for an alpha strike is a squadron command, which can be supplemented with FCs and sorta negates the pure vacuum aspect anyways)

Sure, that will still have issues punching through Counter 1 with rerolls YT-1300's to negate the Intel so I can't go on Bombing runs.

I have found that the concept is sound but you have to plan your existence around those upgrades which mind you Howlrunner and Dengar are what, almost 3 B-Wings on their own? Yeesh.

Super Weird thought on AS ship aspect of this trend, Avenger+Kallus. Avenger does not specify ship or squadron. Get Jan and her squads in a AS barrage. Save Jan for last in AS forcing opponent to hold back a brace or use both and get hit hard by Kallus.

Super Weird thought on AS ship aspect of this trend, Avenger+Kallus. Avenger does not specify ship or squadron. Get Jan and her squads in a AS barrage. Save Jan for last in AS forcing opponent to hold back a brace or use both and get hit hard by Kallus.

Don't forget QLT.

The point isn't necessarily for the squints to survive. The point is to kill enemy bombers and trade up. So, your ships don't die to those bombers while they kill enemy ships.

In a vacuum:

4 TIE Interceptors: 44 points.

4 bwings: 56 points

All squints getting thrown in in one activation: 9.5 damage. Within reason to kill 2 bwings.

2 bwings shoot back and kill an interceptor while taking damage.

You are now up 28-11 and likely to swing it to a final 56-22 or 56-33 trade and your ships pound enemy ships.

Yes, they died. But they bought you that time to get after the ships.

Not when you start adding in Jan Ors or Escorts like YT-1300's

Geometry contends that you need 3 escorts (and are you really getting 3 of them YT's?) to keep your Jan Ors Intel from dying in my alpha strike that locks down your bombers, making them useless for the next couple of rounds while I kill the control ship.

The point isn't necessarily for the squints to survive. The point is to kill enemy bombers and trade up. So, your ships don't die to those bombers while they kill enemy ships.

In a vacuum:

4 TIE Interceptors: 44 points.

4 bwings: 56 points

All squints getting thrown in in one activation: 9.5 damage. Within reason to kill 2 bwings.

2 bwings shoot back and kill an interceptor while taking damage.

You are now up 28-11 and likely to swing it to a final 56-22 or 56-33 trade and your ships pound enemy ships.

Yes, they died. But they bought you that time to get after the ships.

Not when you start adding in Jan Ors or Escorts like YT-1300's

Geometry contends that you need 3 escorts (and are you really getting 3 of them YT's?) to keep your Jan Ors Intel from dying in my alpha strike that locks down your bombers, making them useless for the next couple of rounds while I kill the control ship.

What's the fighter placement you're imagining here?

The point isn't necessarily for the squints to survive. The point is to kill enemy bombers and trade up. So, your ships don't die to those bombers while they kill enemy ships.

In a vacuum:

4 TIE Interceptors: 44 points.

4 bwings: 56 points

All squints getting thrown in in one activation: 9.5 damage. Within reason to kill 2 bwings.

2 bwings shoot back and kill an interceptor while taking damage.

You are now up 28-11 and likely to swing it to a final 56-22 or 56-33 trade and your ships pound enemy ships.

Yes, they died. But they bought you that time to get after the ships.

Not when you start adding in Jan Ors or Escorts like YT-1300's

Geometry contends that you need 3 escorts (and are you really getting 3 of them YT's?) to keep your Jan Ors Intel from dying in my alpha strike that locks down your bombers, making them useless for the next couple of rounds while I kill the control ship.

Well wait. You need three to prevent any attack at all from hitting jan assuming of course the assaulting squadrons are able to reach any point at distance 1 in a 360 degree arc. Given the relative difference in speed between squints and rebel escort squadrons, thats likely a fair assumption, but its not always a given and a savvy rebel admiral may be able to keep jan at the fringe and reduce the need for rear escort. But I digress, even if you do go with two, theres no an infintite amount of space back there, and each fighter you dunk down to hit jan takes up space on its own. And you are going to need at least two squints to kill her with optimal rolls.

Also, i may not take three yt's, but i'm pretty comfortable taking like, 8 xwings now that bcc is a thing. Let alone 3.

It will depend on how far away the squadrons get from the ships. Against Interceptors, staying close is important. Keep your distance and you will be fine.

The best your Alpha strike will be is Dengar, Holwrunner, and 2 Interceptors. At best you will get 50% on your dice on average so 3-4 from each Interceptor. Which means a YT dies and Jan likely lives. You then lose the Interceptors to AA fire.

Fct Mauler and IG88.

Good luck Jan.

It will depend on how far away the squadrons get from the ships. Against Interceptors, staying close is important. Keep your distance and you will be fine.

The best your Alpha strike will be is Dengar, Holwrunner, and 2 Interceptors. At best you will get 50% on your dice on average so 3-4 from each Interceptor. Which means a YT dies and Jan likely lives. You then lose the Interceptors to AA fire.

Well, if the task is to reliably kill Jan, the alpha strike force should be Mithel and IG88, followed up by RS Demo.

It will depend on how far away the squadrons get from the ships. Against Interceptors, staying close is important. Keep your distance and you will be fine.

The best your Alpha strike will be is Dengar, Holwrunner, and 2 Interceptors. At best you will get 50% on your dice on average so 3-4 from each Interceptor. Which means a YT dies and Jan likely lives. You then lose the Interceptors to AA fire.

ISD I with Expanded Hangars and a token gets 6 activations. Howl, Dengar, 4x Interceptors.

Howlrunner, Mauler, Int, IG-88. Jan dies. EVERY time. Don't even really need IG half the time.

Just like I've to Rhymer many, many times.... Unless you have 3 escorts. Two doesn't cover enough space. And every escort added decreases the bombing effectiveness so that's a win already. Or maybe Gallant Haven... Or Jamming Field... or other options, but now we are expanding even more form the original B-wing v INT discussion.

These squadron maneuvers are fairly easy... because you are trying to move bombers in a group to strike ships with slow bombers & I am just trying to kill your fighters & don't care about anything else. And if you maneuver to avoid my fighters, then that's good too, because your main ship killing force is now less effective.

Ginkapo: FCT Mauler... Yes. FCT: move Mauler in. FC, Move Dengar in so you can move Mauler again. Good times.

Madaghmire: Yes, x-wings are fine about this, but we are not talking x-wings in this, just the B-Wing "hotness." Personally, I think X-wings would be better than YT's in this case to cover Jan, because they also function as bombers.

But again, the real point is, there is a counter... and a counter to the counter. 'Tis why armada is good.

The only thing with Mauler and FCT is Mauler has to be unengaged period, Intel or not and within distance 1 of targets you want him to hit. I think it would be hard to pull off having Mauler at distance 1 of many targets or Jan and getting the combo. Nice idea but I think it wouldn't work most of the time because you will either be outside of distance 1 for the FCT or already engaged. Even if you use Dengar to make those squadrons heavy, he is still engaged so you can't FCT.

Obstacles BMcDonald

Obstacles

The only thing with Mauler and FCT is Mauler has to be unengaged period, Intel or not and within distance 1 of targets you want him to hit. I think it would be hard to pull off having Mauler at distance 1 of many targets or Jan and getting the combo. Nice idea but I think it wouldn't work most of the time because you will either be outside of distance 1 for the FCT or already engaged. Even if you use Dengar to make those squadrons heavy, he is still engaged so you can't FCT.

Therefore Mauler, IG88, RS Demo. It doesn't require FCT trick to kill Jan (and wreck havoc to other squadrons as well). In fact one of the fleets I'm currently testing is specifically tuned to counter mass BWings and uses a similar trick.

True Obstacles could be a way around it but I think this one is a lot like the Overload Pulse Avenger combo. Looks great in theory but very hard to pull off vs a good opponent.

PT, definitely the Demo RS is a strong combo, I wasn't saying there isn't other good combos verse the bombers. I'm not a huge squadron fan so I'm trying to find the right balance of a fighter screen that will be able to keep my big ships alive long enough to blow up the enemies fleet. The thing with RS is that it hurts your damage output with Demo on ships with no black rerolls so I'm not sure if it's worth it. Always a trade off. The Glad 2 I think will be a great option as well.

Obstacles BMcDonald

Obstacles

Soo, for me to follow...

The idea is to have him move forward on Turn 1, to a Position that is on top of an Obstacle, that is going to be where the enemy will be, and will be within Close-Medium Range of the Command Ship after it moves on the Following Turn, correct?

So then you can move your ship forward... Declare an FCT move... Pop him off the Asteroid and into their midst with the Distance 1 move... Thus, engaging, and doing the damage - as he only does damage when he moves into engagement - all of the time he's on the Asteroid, no matter where he's moving, he's not engaging, because LOS is obstructed....

Which would then allow you to move up Intel (either with the FCT move, or with just the following Squadron Command), in order to get Mauler to be able to move a second time and re-engage, doing all of his damage again?

...

To be honest, Gink - please tell me if I'm missing something here, because I stupid-respect you, and I'm not seeing how this would be any easier than just trying to coordinate the FCT move concurrently with the FC Squadron Move anyway... Because he was already moved foward to about distance 1 to where the enemy is intending to go, etc, etc...

There is a single way to pull this off

Interdictor

Flight Commander

Fighter Coordination teams

Grav shift Reroute

Convoluted I agree, but I see something in this

Further to Dras's point is that if you do move Mauler out exposed on that Asteroid within distance 1 of where you want to jump in and cause damage you better have first player and hope your opponent doesn't have any rogues so he doesn't get taken out before you can do the combo next turn.

... I'm not making a point, I'm actually really asking for clarification, because I'm having troubles today visualising in my head... I blame a combination of trauma and attempting to paint Rebellion sized Rebel Troopers....